Power Kite Forum

Apexx versus MG Croozer

bigkid - 2-7-2012 at 12:40 AM

Apexx versus MG Croozer.

Spent most of Saturday in the Apexx, and MG Croozer doing a comparison of the two buggies.

Wind was 12mph most of the day blowing WNW most of the day. Flying a 7.5 Century I during the comparison of both bugs. About 15 minutes in one through a set course at North Beach, then in the other bug for another run at the course with the same kite. 3 times in each with the same kite, the same place, the same course, same wind, same everything. Only difference was the bugs.

I was surprised at the pros and cons of both bugs. Both had mud guards, Beach Racers with the grooved tires. Both bugs were set up by the last owner and not changed in any way for this test.

I do not sell MG or the Apexx, so I really could care less if one beats out the other or they equal in all aspects.

I will have to say the bugs are very much the same to some degree, stainless, weight bars, wide wheels and Beach Racers, mud guards.
They weigh about the same, only 5lbs difference. Front to back and side to side, with in an inch of each other.

The Apexx has no back rest, just a strap like the PL bugs, the MG has a back rest. The Apexx has the ergo side rails, the MG does not. The Apexx has low side rails compared to the MG, you sit in the MG and you sit on the Apexx.
You have to sit on the front of the seat and slide back on both bugs to get in. The guy who owned the MG out weighed me by 80lbs and was a good foot taller than me, yet when the kite lifted me up in the MG, the bug came up with me, a tight fit around the butt area. The Apexx came from a guy who is a good 50lbs less than me and the same height as I am. The kite lifted me up OUT of the bug, I would guess I would need to add a good couple of inches of padding to hold me in.
Been 2 long days of buggy riding and I is tired. I got to sleep, will finish the review in the morning.

nocando - 2-7-2012 at 03:47 AM

Well done Big Kid

:wee:

rocfighter - 2-7-2012 at 06:00 AM

I am assuming you had a good day. Take a day off and recoup. Good review so far.

bigkid - 2-7-2012 at 07:23 PM

WOW, what a reaction. And I haven't said anything yet.

I was going to describe the rides of both bugs and how they differed and how they were the same. had it all ready to post and began getting u2us and emails.

FOR THOSE WHO SENT ME A PIECE OF THEIR MINDS. TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND SLOWLY LET IT OUT, SIT BACK AND RELAX.

I was not going to bash either of the bugs and not going to powder coat them either. My intentions are to make an honest comparison of the 2 bugs, at the same time, with the same kite, the same beach, with the same rider, and the same wind. Not one of those "last week I tried "blank" and it is a piece of.....

The response I had wrote up for today was just some basic info and no winner / looser decision, I was going to leave that up to you. In respect to a couple of people who responded, I am going to tune the bugs to fit me and re-due the comparison. At that time I will add the Ivanpah to the MG and the Apexx list.
At that time I will be very honest about which one is better and which one sucks. I will post my findings as I see them and let the chips land where they may. If I offend anyone, sorry, that's the way I see it. If anyone want to see for them selves. I will be more than happy to meet you at Sunset or ? You make the call.

Come to Sunset Beach on July 7th or 8th and try them out.
See you next week, weather permitting.

mougl - 2-7-2012 at 08:10 PM

Wish I could be there! Would love to throw the Corsair QAR into the mix...well that and would be one bada$$ birthday :lol:

John Holgate - 2-7-2012 at 08:22 PM

Will be very interested to hear your thoughts. And maybe how they compare to the Libre Majestic.... Good stuff.

bigkid - 2-7-2012 at 09:22 PM

Only the 7th is available says the wife, but I have all day:kiss:
The Majestic is also on the list to compare.

DAKITEZ - 2-7-2012 at 10:05 PM

I have no opinion either way as I do not sell either of them any longer. But I will say you will not get the true feel of the apexx because it was not built for you. When a pilot buys an apexx they do not get the "off the shelf model". You have to send measurements of your body and they fit the buggy to you. This is already obvious that it does not fit you since you got pulled out. If the buggy was designed for you specifically you would not be coming out. So your test will not be completely accurate.

Since the mg is basically a copy of the apexx and the mg is a universal fit buggy and the apexx was not built for you I would guess they would perform about the same for you. That is atleast after you tuned the buggy for you. I say its pretty hard to give a review on any race type buggy that you did not tune for your riding style/conditions. I think there are about 3-4 apexx buggies local to me now. I am sure I could hop in all of them and they will perform different because they are all set up different for the individual riders.

Oh and a piece of advise ... keep your kites low to stay in the buggy :lol: Just messing with you .. be safe I do not want to be reading more posts of you all broken again.

Krohn1999 - 2-7-2012 at 10:27 PM

Just a few things to think about.
1. Apex is custom made to fit the owner, so if it was not made for you it will be really hard to know what it can do if fitted properly.

2. Mg Croozer has not been made for quite some time now! And is not really in the same catagory as the Apexx, it is more like a Dragster . It was replaced with the Aero. The Aero has similar side bars like the Apex and would be much better for a comparison.

3. Make sure you have a weight set avialable to do fine tuning on the beach. When I first got my Aero it seemed to push over the front wheel, 4lbs. Weight on the front axle and problem solved. So if you have a feeling that a buggy is not acting correctly add a little weight where the problem is and see what happens. Btw. I have 10 lbs. on the front of my Apexx, I could reduce it a bit but I like the extra bite when the kite is running hard up front.


I personally have both an Apexx and an Aero. I have well over 1000 km on the Aero and several thousand on the Apexx. Both are great buggys. The only time I prefer the Apexx over the Aero is for flat out speed, not because it is better but it weighs more.

Sorry for the hijack:bigok::roll::no:

Oooppps Dino was quicker, dude why are still awake, it has to be pretty late there?

Krohn1999 - 2-7-2012 at 10:27 PM

Just a few things to think about.
1. Apex is custom made to fit the owner, so if it was not made for you it will be really hard to know what it can do if fitted properly.

2. Mg Croozer has not been made for quite some time now. It was replaced with the Aero. The Aero has similar side bars like the Apex and would be much better for a comparison.

3. Make sure you have a weight set avialable to do fine tuning on the beach. When I first got my Aero it seemed to push over the front wheel, 4lbs. Weight on the front axle and problem solved. So if you have a feeling that a buggy is not acting correctly add a little weight where the problem is and see what happens. Btw. I have 10 lbs. on the front of my Apexx, I could reduce it a bit but I like the extra bite when the kite is running hard up front.


I personally have both an Apexx and an Aero. I have well over 1000 km on the Aero and several thousand on the Apexx. Both are great buggys. The only time I prefer the Apexx over the Aero is for flat out speed, not because it is better but it weighs more.

Sorry for the hijack:bigok::roll:

bigkid - 3-7-2012 at 12:35 AM

It's funny how the simple things can get the juices flowing.

I hear everyone talk about changing side rails and longer axles, custom seats, custom wheels, adding a rumble seat, and other things that change the geometry of a buggy and nobody says a word about buggy tuning. I say a few things about it and its told to me in U2U's that it's a bunch of crap.
Here I compare 2 bugs and out of the wood work come all these responses about custom set ups and tuned buggies. WHAT GIVES? All these Apexx bugs being sold second hand and the last thing said about tuned bugs is here on this post. You got the smallest person in the world selling his bug to anyone over 5 feet tall, still nothing said about tuning. I don't get it?
I found the 2 bugs to be 99% equal as they were. The only real diff of them was the tires and wheels. That brings up another issue with tuning the bug that is overlooked.

I take it from the emails and U2U's that the Apexx should not be ridden unless it was made for you, if it wasn't, will the world stop spinning and we will all fall off? Or is tuning a bug more important than anyone want to admit?

I am well aware of bug tuning, I know as much about it as most builders. I spent years in metal fabricating and quality control of many things made of all kinds of metals. I spent the last 2 years going around and around about "what if" and "if I", and buggy tuning was one of the big topics to beat myself up with. Lots of calls and emails to different people asking questions.
I don't know everything and don't claim to. I know of it's importance and the safety aspect of it at higher speeds, or in stronger winds. Telling me about custom setups and tuning is preaching to the choir. Anyone who sells a buggy need to make sure the buyer understands the importance of a tuned bug. It is just as important as not selling a 10m race kite to a newbie. You don't sell a small bug to a 8' giant and tell them to move the seat back and get longer side rail and your set.

Just my opinion, and my observation of what I see and hear.:eureka:

Now that the word is out about bug tuning, and custom made bugs, can we get some builders to add some things here? Be my guest and Hijack away.

nocando - 3-7-2012 at 01:56 AM

Great stuff guys keep it coming.

rocfighter - 3-7-2012 at 05:23 AM

Jeff you are a major trouble maker! Keep it up Bro. Can't wait to read your reviews.
Also got a note in the mail box yesterday that I have a package at the Post office. Only expecting one! Tracking said the 6th or 7th. I'll let you know.

jellis - 3-7-2012 at 09:31 AM

So what your saying krohn1999 is that a $4000 Apex is made to fit especially for a buggier and if not it will not work properly?

BeamerBob - 3-7-2012 at 10:23 AM

My Apexx belonged to Ozzy. It's the one that Arie broke the world record in (a couple times I think). Arie, Ozzy and I are different body shapes, but my buggy fits me very well and I always feel at one with it even at speed. Ozzy obviously liked it as well. It's the one he did the famous flip in while riding on the frozen lake.When I'm going fast, I am not thinking about the buggy, or wondering if I'm secure in it. All my attention is fixed on the kite and what it might try to do to me or what can I do to get more out of it. My harness is just what I need to ensure a snug secure fit in my buggy. I've been off the ground with it 4 times now. Sometimes a couple feet, and other times just enough that I notice the tires stopped making any noise.

I got lucky that such a fantastic buggy that fit me so well was sitting on the ground right beside me and was for sale. I've made several adjustments to my buggy since getting it and feel like I have it set ideally for me and where I ride now. Adding the Landsegler disc wheels will put changes in the mix and I'm sure I'll have some further adjustments to make to get it dialed in again.

I'm not sure how Big Kid has rankled anyone yet since he hasn't really said anything. I'm interested in what he has to say and will just discount the stuff that isn't the case for me since I fit my buggy so well. I've had the pleasure of also spending time in the MG and can attest that it was a very nice buggy to ride in. Dino had reason to change over to the Apexx from the MG and hasn't looked back, so I'm sure he will have info to add to the discussion.

Great to have another interesting thread on PKF!

Krohn1999 - 3-7-2012 at 10:23 AM

Sure the buggy will work for anyone that can fit into it, BUT for it to work the way it should it needs to be fit in the length and width of the person using it. For example it was written above that he got lifted out of the Apexx, if an Apexx is the correct size the driver can decide if he wants to get lifted out or not. In My Apexx all I need to do is either push my legs apart and the buggy will be lifted with me. if I pull my knees together the buggy will drop off me.

Another statment from above was about the sitting position, somthing about sitting ontop of the rails. The Apexx is made so the driver can decide how deep he wants to sit in it. That is why you have the heigth adjustment on the rear axle. By using this in conjunction with lowering or raising the seat you can go low enough that the side rails are in your armpits.

When Ruudje builds an Apexx for somone he wants to know alot of diffrent things about the persons riding style. For example if the person uses only race kites he will add a little length to the side rails so there is more pressure on the front wheel. Also the downtube length is made to fit the persons heigth. On " off the rack buggys", if you are short like me, you have alot of downtube sticking into the seat. He makes them to the length that the person needs.

With the MG Aero you have also the option of side bar width, and seat heigth.

After you find the best sitting position for you, you then have to get the buggy " back in balance". This is mostly done with adding weight. Usually you need the extra weight up front to keep enough pressure on the front wheel so it does what you want it to.

I am sure most people here have ridden in a buggy where they will turn the front wheel and the buggy keeps going straight for a bit before it starts to turn. The problem is that there is not enough weight on the front wheel. Or if you go into a drift and the backend swings to far around, then you need to add a little in back.

If you start out with a buggy that already is set up for your size you can make these fine adjustments using very little weight. If the buggy is not set up for your size then you may need alot of weight to make these corrections.

I see alot of people makeing adjustments to buggys by going with wider rear axles or with side bar extensions. Lots of times this will just creat other problems.
I myself am about 5'8" and use a 135 cm rear on my Apexx and it works just fine.
On the MG they all come with a 150cm axle and I have been thinking of cutting it down.
Both buggys do not have extensions.

I do need to add the extensions will help you get more weight on the front wheel but it is more effective to just use weights.

So thats enough for now.

So that being said, yes anyone can get into any buggy and ride it. But at the same time, No it is not a good idea for somone to start testing buggys ( and writting things in forums) when they are custom sized buggys not made for them.

Danger - 3-7-2012 at 11:18 AM

adding weights is only the very last option someone should go. adjusting the seatposition/point of pull right is one if not the most important thing you have to learn if you want to ride a racebuggy to its full potential. first problem is that most ppl tend to set there seats up like deck chairs, while a nearly straight upright sitting positing is the way to go as it centers the mass of the upper body and gives much more control. this will not be the most comfortabel way to ride, but there is areason u have bucket seats in a sporty car and not wing chairs. with a spot on adjusted buggy leaning your upper body 1 inch in front or back gives u full control over rear or front breakouts (a point why you wont see fix back rests on most competitive bugs). easiest way to test that is driving overpowered enough that gusts drag you slightly to lee, if the buggy slides over all 3 wheels while you sit straight and dont move its perfect.

getting lifted out of a apexx without wanting it realy shows that the buggy does not fit. if the apexx fits you are locked in it as you slide in, to get out you have to slide your bottom to the front or realy push our knees together and let a force from above lift you. thats one of the major advantages i see in the clamping the apexx uses over other buggys. i have seen other bugs where u have to push your legs to the sides etc. to clamp, but that wont help you at all with unforeseen lifts where you just wont have the time to react.

bigkid - 3-7-2012 at 12:42 PM

Nice to see the juices flowing.......

Krohn, was going to say you are 100% right in what you said until you said... No it is not a good idea for somone to start testing buggys ( and writting things in forums) when they are custom sized buggys not made for them.
Glad to see you are a mind reader, so let me know the rest of the story.............
I am glad to see that some one has the ability to say some thing about setting up a bug. Good that someone knows.

I was talking to Ruudje this morning about this very subject. It's nice to talk with someone who is knowledgeable in the area of buggy building and how to set up a bug. We have a lot in common. Short of pointing fingers and throwing out names, as I said earlier, A bug that is not set up for you and set up correctly is like giving a race kite to a newbie to buggy with.

As I said at the beginning, I was comparing the 2 bugs as they came to me. Anyone else done that? Ever tried someones bug? Ever bought a bug that wasn't new and set up for you? When you got the bug, was the instructions in English or another language? Did they include a section on how to tune your new bug? Ever bought a bug that just didn't work for you? And then turned around and sold it?
I think I covered all the bases.

I got a buggy for sale and the price is right. Sold. (glad that thing is gone, never did feel right. Hmmm, which one do I want to try next?)

Ozzy say's when you buy the Apexx, "this is the last buggy you will ever buy". And he is correct, BECAUSE IT IS BUILT AND SET UP FOR YOU, IT IS TUNED. All you have to do is a little tweaking for your personal taste.

Must be a reason why the small PL type bugs come in one size fits all and the others, larger bugs, come in sizes like XS up to XXL, and or Custom.

Know anything about DRIFT? Where is the center of gravity on your bug? Is your triangle perfect of a bit off? Add weight or move the seat? More air or less in the tires? Why are there 2 or 3 holes to mount the footpegs?
We made a joke about the manual that came with all of the Pansh kites, NOT.
So why sell the bug with out a manual? Or at least have somewhere to find the info on setting up a bug correctly.

Well, it's easier to sell a bug and not say anything, than to say the bug is to small for you and not make the sale, or what ever.


If the topic of Apexx versus MG Croozer bothers you, then post your thoughts. Its a free world right? I will continue to ask the questions, and when I get the answers, I will know what size to order and what set up the person will need. After the person gets the bug, I will call, stop by, or meet them at the beach and help them set up the bug, tune it. No manual here, only personal attention to make sure the person is ready to buggy.
If I sell a used bug, same thing as above.
Turned down 2 buggy sales this last weekend. Why? Guess you didn't pay attention.

Krohn1999 - 3-7-2012 at 03:54 PM

@danger
You are correct, this is also a way to do it but if you are like me (and many others) comfort is a big issue. Have you ever tried to do this in a 6or 8 hour race?

And I do have to say that about 90% of the people I know use weights, not much, usually around 2 to 5 kg and then you can have your seating position the way you want it and not the way the buggy needs it. Your way works, no doubt, but in a race longer than 40 minutes, no thanks.
But that is just my opinion

Bigkid, sure it would be great if somthing would be delivered with the buggy showing how to set it up, but the reality is diffrent.

When I , like you, sell someone a buggy I always try to deliver it somwhere were we can work together on the set up. If we cannot meet on a beach or so we do the set up the best we can and then they always get my cell number to call if they have questions on the beach.

The reason I said that about being a bad idea is simply that there are too many newbees reading in forums that cannot tell the diffrence between somone just trying somthing new, and someone saying that the buggy is not good ( because it wasn' t set up correctly).

I do still think you are not really comparing apples to apples( it is more like apples to prunes) but that is just my opinon.

Ozzy is correct with his statment, I love riding my Apexx today just as much as the day I bought it.

Do you maybe have a way of getting an Aero or a GT for a test? That would be a fare comparison, and also very interesting considering the price diffrence between the three.

Bladerunner - 3-7-2012 at 05:00 PM

A manual with your buggy is a great idea. Everything I ever learned about tuning I got from watching Jellis help people tune their Libres .

I have so many holes available to me at the bottom of my front fork alone that I get confused about what is best for tracking etc..

This is a fantastic discusion ! Overdue !

bigkid - 3-7-2012 at 07:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Krohn1999
Do you maybe have a way of getting an Aero or a GT for a test? That would be a fare comparison, and also very interesting considering the price diffrence between the three.

I talked to Maarten many times about getting an Aero, and he told me it was coming over for NABX along with some of the new kites. I even lined up a buyer for it. I offered to pay shipping to get them here and he said he would take care of it, I might have misunderstood which NABX he was talking about, thought it was 2012.
Your right, the Aero and the Apexx would be good.

I got my point out and a few of you agreed, it IS important to tune your bug. Old or new at the sport it has to be done. Glad to know how adamant you all are about buying a used Apexx that wasn't custom set up for the second buyer.

bigkid - 3-7-2012 at 09:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
I have so many holes available to me at the bottom of my front fork alone that I get confused about what is best for tracking etc..


This is one of my points I deal with a lot.
If you take off the triangle piece from the footpegs and mount the pegs in the hole closest to the fork (from you) you will find the front wheel will not be as touchy at high speeds. The farther back, towards you the wheel is easier to turn and also makes the turn tighter.

Krohn1999 - 3-7-2012 at 11:13 PM

Buying a used Apexx is like buying a used 3 piece suit. Yuo had better be really close in size to the guy you are buying it from. Then you do a small tweak here or there and then its perfect.


There was actually going to be a couple Aeros at NABX 2012 but I changed jobs a month before the event and couldn't get the time off, and the other one didn't go for reasons That I don' t know.

I am planning to come for NABX 2013, if it will work ??? With my new job I have to travel alot. If it does work I will be bringing an AERO that will then be sold after the event.

bigkid - 4-7-2012 at 07:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Krohn1999
Buying a used Apexx is like buying a used 3 piece suit. Yuo had better be really close in size to the guy you are buying it from. Then you do a small tweak here or there and then its perfect.


YOU ARE 1000% CORRECT. I TOTALLY AGREE.

I hope you don't stop at this point..........What are the small tweaks?

I, along with the rest of the buggy community here in North America, would love to know what those are. We would also like to know how to tune a buggy, (the correct way according to each manufacturer).
I know how to tune Libre's, and in general all the others.

The question is "will anyone with the knowledge (builders), publish the info needed for the rest of us to set up our buggies safely, AND KNOW IF A BUGGY IS NOT A GOOD BUY ONLY BY THE PRICE).

Krohn1999 - 4-7-2012 at 09:23 AM

The majority of the " tweeks" have already been discussed above.
The most important thing in setting up a buggy is getting it balanced so when you go into a drift that it equally slides over all three wheels. Once you have that you can start to add your personal prefrence. I personally like a little more weight up front because I use kites that fly more twards the front of the window ( Vapor, GT, Z3, Spirit). This keeps enough pressure to keep the wheel going straight even when you are overpowered. When you go into a drift the rear might feel a little light but is normally possible to keep on track with a slight counter steer up front.

The weight can be achieved by either moving your seat closer to the front, or adding weight. Alot of times you have several possibilitys on where you mount your foot pegs. If you put them in the most forward position and then adjust your seat accordingly you will have the max pressure on the front wheel without adding weights.
I really suggest to everyone that has such a buggy to try this, you will be supprised what a diffrence it will make. If you still want more add weight, but start small, 3 or 4 pounds. Mount the weight directly over or in front of the front axle for max effect.

Another good thing is keeping your CG as low as possible. This keeps the buggy from tipping. Also in buggys like the Apexx if you are low enough your spreader bar will hook under the side rail which is cool because the pressure of the kite gets transfered directly to the buggy instead of over your hips. This is really nice in long distance races or in day long rides.

What has not been discussed yet is tires and pressure. This is a very hard thing because every beach has a diffrent type of sand. What I can say is the harder the ground, the more pressure you can use.
Tire grooves, also very important. Up front I run 13 grooves. In back 7-9 is plenty. Make sure that the grooves have sharp edges and are wide enough so they don't just get pluged up with sand.
Which tire is the best? No Idea! I think it is a personal decision that everyone needs to make for themselves. I personally like Duros the best, but am still running Cadcats on my Apexx, simply because the diffrence is so small that it is not worth buying a new set.

Bearings? This is another hot topic. I personally use good but cheap bearings. The real el- cheapo ones can cause alot of damage when they freeze up at 60. The really expensive ones run nice but seem to have the same problem as the ones I use. Over time the bearing seal will be damaged by sand and small rocks. Once it has been damaged to grease will flow out and sand will enter. Then it is just a matter of time.
The ones that I use cost around $5 each and I just change them out as soon as they start to make a grumbling noise.

I think the biggest trick is finding a way of just keeping the sand and salt water away from the bearing. One easy way is just spread a thick layer of grease over the top of the bearing, quite messy but it works. I have been experementing with capsuling the bearings so that nothing can get in to them. Some of the things I have tried have been sucessful but still to early to talk about.

So thats enough for now, I need to go pack my trailer for Fano.

bigkid - 4-7-2012 at 09:28 AM

:thumbup:

bigkid - 4-7-2012 at 10:00 AM

Just to let everyone know, My intentions all along in this post, is to now tune the bugs for me and then repeat the comparison. That way you can see the effect of using a bug that isn't set up for you and using one that is.

Hope for good wind and weather at Sunset Beach this weekend.

ApexxMonty - 4-7-2012 at 11:28 AM

I bought the first APEXX in the US in 2009 at NABX. Arie set the 1st world record that year in this particular buggy. Arie, Rudy & Ozzy signed the side plates & the front fender. I've been riding it ever since. It fit me to a T and I can only say it was a prize! The thing that impressed me was the fit. Anyone out there thinking about buying a buggy should consider the fit - it sure makes a difference in the long run.

Apexx Monty
Enjoy your journey in finding what fits you...

DAKITEZ - 4-7-2012 at 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bigkid
Just to let everyone know, My intentions all along in this post, is to now tune the bugs for me and then repeat the comparison. That way you can see the effect of using a bug that isn't set up for you and using one that is.

Hope for good wind and weather at Sunset Beach this weekend.


If you want this thread to be about settings you should change the title. Ultimately it seems you are not really trying to compare the 2 buggies.

If you wish to talk about tuning I will be happy to share input as well, but I will not comment about the different buggies pluses or minus's. I am not here to pick either apart as they are both excellent buggies. The real truth is 95% of us in north america do not have the terrain to use such buggies to their full potential the majority of the time when they ride. ANd because of that very few put forward the funds to buy these more expensive buggies. Many people wish to have these buggies , but the added hassle of transporting them and the sheer cost puts it out of budget for most. If we had more events and even possibly racing here that would push the envelope and you would see more of these race buggies here. But till that happens ....

bigkid - 9-7-2012 at 10:06 PM

Well, where do I begin?

After the flood gates let out all the replies and now nothing left but some mud and the truth, I will now finish my comparison of the 2 bugs.

Before I was able to finish with the first report, things came to a halt, so let me finish.

I set up a course on the beach, around a few logs, across the creeks and down the marks left by the cars and back to camp. I rode the Apexx first, 2 laps and then the MG. Did it that way 2 more times for a total of 6 laps each. Wind, rider, kite, area, day, everything was the same but the bugs.

On the turns the bugs broke loose about the same. The handling was very close also. Side pull of the bugs is were things got interesting. I was overpowered though out the first test last week. The MG was a bit loose in the rear and the Apexx was very loose in the front.
It was hard to get the front to brake free on the MG.
The Apexx was too lite in the front and was hard to keep the thing from chasing after the kite.
On the strait run back to camp, the problems got unmanageable as the speeds increased. At slow speeds they both handled very similar. Because I could not control the Apexx with the lite front end the MG was better at the way I ride and fly with the way they were set up, OR NOT SET UP FOR ME.

After all the talk about tuning, setup, custom built, etc, it is only fair to set up both bugs for me and do it all over again.

This last weekend was the time to see if the bugs could be set up and custom for me.
It was real simple to set up and tune the bugs, if you know how.

I set up another course and like the first time, same, same, same, etc, except for the bugs(this time they are set up for me).
I was able to set them up with out weights with only seat, down tube, and foot peg adjustments. Tire pressure was the same in all 6 tires also. The bottom of the seat was 3 inches off the sand. NOW LETS RIDE.

I was flying a 7.5 Century for the first set of runs. 2 laps each, alternating bugs, with a total of 3 runs each or 6 laps each.

Are you ready for the results? Lets just get to it, OK?
Both bugs did very well in all aspects of the course, turns, drift, comfort, ease of turning, and looks. They are both stainless. THEY ARE IN SIMPLE TERMS, EQUAL. The test in my opinion was fair and unbiased. No looser, no winner. both are great bugs and as for the price, you make that call.

High siderails, low siderails, MG, Apexx, something has to be difference in the performance and handling of the bugs, got to be.

Lets change kites and do it again. This time I will use an 8m NPW, thanks Susan.
You can fly this kite powered up or back it off as much as you want. I am way over powered with this kite so lets push it to the limits.

This part of the test was just for me and I was out to play and have fun. I set up the NPW on PKD handles, that lets me fly the kite like the old HQ kites on 2 lines. By adjusting the brakes with the cleats I was able to set the kite to fly powered up 100% with out feathering the handles. That way it flew as a foil with the ability to use the breaks to slow down and land the kite.
As the kite powered up after a turn the bug would slide until it caught up with the kite speed and all 3 of us would run full out along the marks of the traffic. I had 2 points I worked between and up to, a 2 point course.
This is were the riding became fun. I would let the kite do it's thing and push both the kite and bug to the fastest speed it could reach, along that strait line to the next marker. Now remember I am overpowered and at this point the bugs begin to drift.
This is were they differ. I like the ride of both bugs and feel they are more than sufficient for anyone to do as they want with them, putt around, run 80mph, show off the bling, what ever.
The MG would break free in the rear and then the front with in a fraction of a second of each other, and I would drift a foot or 2 before the mark and I would turn.
The Apexx would drift to the point that I would not make the mark to turn, about 6 to 8 feet.
Lets try it again, Yep, same out come. The Apexx would drift sooner and farther than the MG. Now at this point, air pressure becomes an issue, let some out of the Apexx and more than likely would make things quite even. but I am having fun and I don't want to stop, not even to go to the bathroom.

NOW AS I STATED EARLIER, THIS IS MY TEST AND MY FINDINGS.

Many others have rode both bugs the last 3 weeks and if they agree with me or disagree with me, means nothing more than what my findings have told me.
All bugs need to be set up and tuned, to get the most out of them. With safety as the number 1 reason for this, we should all be aware of the buggy that will not fit you because it is the wrong size. Thanks to Apexx and MG for making great buggies that are a joy to ride. I will be sad the day these are sold to someone they were made to fit.

John Holgate - 13-7-2012 at 03:52 PM

Is the Libre Majestic in the same league as these bugs?

bigkid - 13-7-2012 at 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by John Holgate
Is the Libre Majestic in the same league as these bugs?

Yes.
The Majestic is a custom bug also, I will need to know your size and abilities to help you get the right size and set up.
The only one here in the US is still being tuned for the owner. The bug comes in X-small, Small, Medium, and Large. The cost is about 2800.00 plus shipping. Most of the cost is dependent on wheel type and tire type. The Majestic is a beach buggy with bigfoots.
I am 5'10", and 200lbs and I will fit a small, if I was 6'2" and 260lb, I would be in a Medium. I am not aware of anyone who would use a Large. It comes in black, and stainless.

As soon as csa_deadon gets the bug tuned, there will be a write up of the comparison to the above bugs.

majestic-forum size (400x267).jpg - 94kB

John Holgate - 14-7-2012 at 02:03 AM

Quote:

, I will need to know your size and abilities to help you get the right size and set up.


Not in market for a new bug just yet, Jeff, but always interested in what Libre bring out and how it performs. My only real complaint with mine (Vmax) is the seat is a little large for me but with the swan neck downtube and extensions on the back, it certainly is starting to handle well.


bigkid - 14-7-2012 at 06:58 AM

you might have the older seat style, the new ones have a narrower bottom that feels smaller. you can also add some more padding to the side rails.

BeamerBob - 14-7-2012 at 08:47 AM

Where is the controversy? The arguments, hurt feelings and gnashing of teeth? Good job Jeff! I wonder why the Apexx tended to break loose quicker than the MG. The only difference I can imagine would have an effect on that is the rake and trail of the fork. Doesn't the MG have a laid back fork?

bigkid - 14-7-2012 at 11:31 AM

I would say, Bobby, the reason is the MG has 4" wheels and the Apexx has 8". The MGs tire is rounded were the Apexxs tire is flat across the tread. Would make the differance in a race I would think.
I will trade tires next weekend and see what happens. Hope to take the Ivanpah with to add to the game.