Coldsnap - 27-8-2012 at 11:37 PM
During the past six months or so I've been flying my FB foils at every possible opportunity, and now I'm beginning to feel it's time to graduate to a
small depower kite.
With winter season looming on the horizon, I'm thinking of getting myself an all year rounder to use for snow/ice kiting this winter, and then try and
get comfortable in the water with it next year.
This summer I've had the opportunity to try out (under supervision) a 19M Speed2 a few times, and while it's an awesome kite, it's way way too big for
me. On one occasion I also got to try bodydragging with a 9M LEI, and while it certainly didn't have the intimidating battleship feel of the Speed2,
it was still a beast compared to my 4M Hornet. I think I'd rather take baby steps than moving onto something that's too big for me to handle.
The kite that's caught my attention is the 6M Flysurfer Viron. On paper it looks a dream, it seems user-friendly like the Hornet, but with all the
bells and whistles of a large depower foil. The question is, is it too small to be used as anything but a trainer? I'm thinking of using it for
snow/ice kiting on an inland lake in fairly gusty 10-20 mph winds, as well as bodydragging and hopefully learning to get up on a board and cruise (the
coastal wind is usually more stable). Will I outgrow a 6M depower foil in no time? Should I save up for a larger Unity instead, or go for something
else entirely?
Your thoughts please. 
lives2fly - 28-8-2012 at 01:28 AM
The Viron is really an alternative to getting a 3-4m fixed bridle as a trainer.
If you have kite skills anyway you will find it very tame and underpowered in 10-20mph.
A much better starting point for snow kiting would be a 10m Ozone Access, 10m HQ Apex, or a Arc around 15m. I've yet to fly a flysurfer other than the
viron but I'm sure someone will give you some advice on which one to use if you are keen to get one.
I know these kites might seem big if you are used to small fixed bridles but you will get used to them quickly. just be sensible about the windspeed
for your first few sessions
Coldsnap - 28-8-2012 at 01:53 AM
Thanks for the reply, I suspected as much. Too bad the Viron doesn't come in 8M. 
The main reason I'm looking at the Flysurfer Viron/Unity is I want to be able to use it on water as well as snow, which rules out the open cell foils.
I was also very impressed with the build quality on the Speed 2, but perhaps the HQ Neo or Matrixx could be a cheaper alternative?
martinipro - 28-8-2012 at 05:46 AM
I think for the Viron in water you are going to need well over 20mph+. In land maybe it will work in 20mph.
We have no information about your weight but 10-20mph I would say you need a 12m-15m kite. Bigger for the water, smaller in land.
You need a lot more power on the kite to ride that what you need to bodydrag.
LEIs could be an option, a lot of people use them in the snow. Not sure how durable they are if you are slamming it against the snow once in a while.
(You have tons of options here on the 12-15m range).
Closed Cell Foils. If you are looking for a tame user friendly wing the Unity may not be a bad option (largest they make is 12m), other options would
be pulse2 (12 or 14m), psycho4(12m or 15m), or speed3(12m or 15m). Looking at HQ I hear the NEO3 is a very friendly wing as well (but largest size is
11m i think?) or a Matrixx (12m or 15m).
Arcs(Peter Lynn) would be another option but you would end up with a pretty large wing here I would say at least 15m+
From all mentioned, the most user friendly ones would be Unity, Arcs, or the hq neo3.
Bladerunner - 28-8-2012 at 06:26 AM
I suggest avoiding the Viron since you have put in your training time. The Unity is the new Flysurfer you are looking for. The Pulse II is the
previous tame model and they are seling at some real good prices used now in the for sale section.
If your winds are tyoically 10 - 20 and others are flying big Speeds something in the 10ish m range may serve you better ?
Look also at HQ + Skycountry for other closed cell foils. Peter Lynn arcs are also an option. Synergy and Venom are selling at amazing second hand
prices and are a good place to start.
revpaul - 28-8-2012 at 08:27 AM
there is pulling power/grunt and also"upwind performance" to consider.
i have described in other thread(s) about kite skiing(struggling to get back to beach(upwind somewhat in lower wind range) with my 12m PulseII (great
all-arounder)and being completely amazed by the trajectory/tack a fellow had using a 12m SpeedII (higher AR) moving very steady and rapidly and very
upwind.
at the time i thought...oh well...that's the Sp2 but it's for experts/advanced guys so be it.
i would say now start(cautiously) with a a high AR (any FS Speed series) and grow into it then you have more advantage(s) at your disposal.
Ozone's (in my opinion) have more bottom end grunt per size than reg/normal AR FSers but i will not comment on upwind performance.
in a nut shell-upwind performance makes up a huuuuuuge difference between walking/swimming back to beach or riding back.
Paul
stetson05 - 28-8-2012 at 09:17 AM
I was curious about using the viron as my high wind kite. I think it would take 30+ to get me out riding the water with it. Any thoughts?
macboy - 28-8-2012 at 02:40 PM
I think if you're edging to a Viron you're better off shifting thoughts to the Unity lineup. However, all the foils I've ever flown have one thing
missing that the LEIs have....complete depower at the bar. I don't mean on the safety - I mean while flying. I like the fact that you can spill
everything out of the kite by sheeting out. The foils, though superb in all aspects IMO is missing this one characteristic. I find, for learning on
the water my foils would be continually dragging me one way or the other (or downwind) while getting the board ready etc. The LEIs - just dump the
power and you don't seem to lose as much ground while futtering in the water.
stetson05 - 28-8-2012 at 04:06 PM
Coldsnap, I have not flown the viron so I can't say that what it will or will not do exactly. I would say though that it will be a relativly high
wind kite on snow and definately on water. Snow if not too deep seems to be much like hardpack sand. These surfaces require less wind to move but
you will still need some. Depending on your weight I would suggest an 8m in one of the styles listed above. I wouldn't discount using an LEI but you
might hold off until you are comfortable not crashing into the ground.
erratic winds - 28-8-2012 at 04:20 PM
I might be in the minority but I would take what you would spend on the viron and buy two used LEI's, 8/12 or 9/13 depending on weight. I fly both my
LEI's and foils year round. Have gotten the best bang for buck on used LEI's for sure, though there are plenty of risks involved buying used, I've
had great experiences buying here on PKF.
Coldsnap - 30-8-2012 at 08:41 AM
Thanks for all the replies guys! After going through all the feedback and reading up a bit more on the kites mentioned, I believe a Unity 12M is the
kite I'm looking for after all. I'm hoping it won't scare me to death, but it seems to be a friendly flyer. Just need to raise the money for it, I'll
probably need to buy a brand new one since 2nd hand foils aren't that common here in Sweden.
martinipro - 30-8-2012 at 08:47 AM
There is a deluxe edition in the UK that may be worth it to look at.
http://forum.kitecrowd.com/sale/flysurfer-unity-12m-dlx-2049...
Contact the seller he may be willing to ship to Sweden.
kitedelight - 30-8-2012 at 08:28 PM
decision seems made, but for what it's worth, unity would be a good choice. I've seen a few around here. Heard they are very good in the gusts and
very stable. Saw a beginner on one and he was doing great, some of that is due to ease of use of the kite for sure.
just a thought, you'll probably have 2-3 depower kites one day, so maybe talk to some local kiters and see what sizes they have...might form your
decision whether to get the 12 or 10m unity. Plus, you might want a larger speed3 later on, so might be worth it save room for that.
revpaul - 2-9-2012 at 11:44 AM
i 'tried out' a 10m unity with a buggy this summer. i was at a big RC plane/heli/rocket festival and there is usually some paragliding(with the
propeller) and small aircraft coming in and out so kiting is not very popular there unless winds are really up and everything else is grounded. i was
just there mainly to watch the all cool toys/people.
the land owner/event host is a friend and has a great buggy on site. i know the the FS canada rep(Mike) pretty good and was helping him
reassemble(reattach bridals to canopy) a 10m Unity that just came in from repair. Mike(FS) stated that the unity was built with huge depower in mind
to be tame enough for beginner level kiters.
once we got the kite together Mike (FS rep) said here you go and another guy wheeled the buggy over and told me i was to demonstrate kite buggying to
everybody. the winds were up so no RC stuff in the air.
i hadn't buggied(kited period for that matter) for quite some time and i had no ' oh crap i'm rusty..moments' whatsoever with the unity. very nice
flyer...i looked like a Pro at the festival.
Unity is real nice rig.
Paul