lives2fly - 3-10-2012 at 03:22 AM
I have been toying with the idea of buying a flysurfer 19m or 21m but don't really think i will ever convince myself its worth the money.
So now i'm thinking maybe a big Arc would do the job and cost less! an 18m Phantom or a 19m charger - maybe even the 24m!
PL claim the wind range is 5knots + for these kites but I could never get my 16m venom to even launch in 5 knots and it had as much projected area as
these bigger newer kites.
What windspeeds will suit these kites? I'm 80kg and intermediate level land/snow boarder.
I might also want to use it on the water until I get a light wind LEI. less experienced on the water but improving rapidly 
shehatesmyhobbies - 3-10-2012 at 04:00 AM
As long as I can get my 18m Phantom full, I can launch it in about 6-8 mph winds. On grass in the buggy it will pull me around a little, but good
useable power comes in about 10mph winds. On water, I imagine you would need a bit more wind .
Mostly Harmless - 3-10-2012 at 04:32 AM
For reference, I can fly my 17m Ozone Zephyr in 13 mph of wind with my large board (could probably take another 1 or 2 mph off that if I had a bigger
board). After that it takes a bit of work to keep the kite going.
Kamikuza - 3-10-2012 at 05:48 AM
I call BS on a 16m Venom having the same projected area as a 21m Speed3. Willing to be corrected but I'm sure I'm right 
The S3 21 will fly in SFA wind... in NZ, I wanted to test a bridle repair so filled it by running backwards across the park - 3 times - then keeping
it in the air by figure-8ing it... and sliding as it passed the powerzone :o There was just enough wind to push falling grass downwind a few inches...
I was stunned.
Useable power comes in about 5 knots - you could probably toddle around on a landboard... but I bet it'd be a luff-fest. I can ride my big board on
the water down to about 8 but won't have fun til 12... the new Flydoor may make that 10 though - certainly, with the S3 15 I'm riding in shockingly
little wind! weather station says 10knots but I dunno... With the 21 and a raceboard or such, I'm betting you could ride in wind so light that a knot
or two drop in a lull could have you swimming... and that sucks
Lightwind LEIs? May work for you light-weights but I find it hard to believe they'll be that much better - we're only talking another 2m2 over my XB16
and that's no good below 12. In winter.
19m Charger - I might sell mine... they like board speed or being worked and I need a kite I can parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n'ride cos I'm FAT. And heavy 
and lazy :D but man, it's fast! Arcs I just can't parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n'ride though.
Damn! If you read all that congrats! Last word...
S3 21 they call "cable park in a bag" for good reason 
but it's s--l--o--w!!!
PHREERIDER - 3-10-2012 at 06:49 AM
the water access has more to do with the boards threshold(combined with your weight) not the kites low end. low speed threshold plane board and
reasonable kite size and your off.
the ZEPHyR is one of the best low wind tube kites i have ever flown. flat and 12 mph and your are off!
2 very different units you are considering.
the arcs are gonna need more air and their extreme low end is all ACTION, not efficiency of the profile, and eventually apparent wind adds in but
YOU have to fly it to speed. arcs will go in light its just ALL PILOT kite flying action with them depowered. considerable WORK! the water around
13 on V13 with lotta looping, very tedious, light and quick touch and slick, fast board. a charger 15/19 will do about the same. below 75kgs gives
much better performance in light. since the newer arcs are quicker(esp. the big ones) they do better.
p18 on the water for your weight will still need good air (13+ maybe more!) because this unit is a slo turner and after it gets you launched its too
slo to come around to continue more, its pilot sensitive on the water for sure!
the FS is all about efficiency and not so much action , but apparent wind arrives instantly....just start moving. more balance and timing involved,
less work. definite low wind access just have to be able to put together esp. on the water.
in general as balance and timing improve light air riding becomes more available. using the small net of power is tedious, understanding HOW the
kite behaves and where its effective in the window all comes with practice.
needs efficient piloting =arcs
needs efficient balance and board =FS(depower foil type)
BeamerBob - 3-10-2012 at 08:28 AM
I was really impressed with the power the 24m Phantom II had in almost no wind. It launched in maybe 4 mph and at that I could sweep it low across
the power zone and this was with flags laying against the pole. If the flags were flying, I couldn't hold it that low flying static on grass. I
imagine I could ride the water in 8-10 with that kite and my door, and I'm 225-230 lbs. Still to be tested. I was very impressed with how rigid the
PII was and how well it stayed inflated.
For maybe even more power, the Charger II in 22.5m size might break new ground in low wind torque for an arc.
lives2fly - 3-10-2012 at 09:39 AM
Kami no need to call BS cos I meant that a 16m Venom has similar projected area to an 18m Phantom or a 19m Charger
16 Venom 11.3m
18 Phantom 10.9
19 Charger 11.9
I have no experience of Flysurfers unfortunately. I would really like to get a 19 or 21 speed 3 for low wind fun but I can't stretch to the huge price
tag so I was considering a big Arc instead but the more reseach I do I don't think they are comparable. Though the 24m might do the job!
Might just get a light wind LEI that will work in 10knots and stick to throwing my 6.6 Blade around in less than that.
Feyd - 3-10-2012 at 10:25 AM
On the ice the 24m Phantom 2 will have me, at 200 lbs, moving in about 3mph of wind at about 12mph. And fully depowered I've had it up to 24mph wind
but I won't lie its a lot of work. Still, it's a pretty broad windrange if you don't want to get stranded.
But by and large on water I imagine the bottom end would be a bit higher. Like Phree say's a lot of what you get out of an Arcs lower end will depend
a lot on piloting more that just raw low wind ability.
Head to head comparisons we found the 24m was close to the 19m Speed 3 and Psycho 4 SA 19m on snow. What the 24m lacks in low end you can make up
with turn rate and do pretty well on some seriously light wind days. She builds apparent really well. We expirimented with line extensions and found
that 40-45m lines get you a little bit more low end but at the loss of handling. 30-35m seemed to be the sweet spot. 60m pretty much sucked because
of too much steering lag and extra drag from the lines seemed to nulify an gain from the extra length.
Don't know if that helps much.
lives2fly - 4-10-2012 at 02:50 AM
Feyd - thats great info.
enough inspiration that i will be trying to demo a 24 in the near future.
just completed my LEI quiver with a 7.5m 2010 cult and a 10m 2011 Park so the light wind engine is along term project for next spring/summer while my
finances recover...
gives me plenty of time to try and test a few big kites
Kamikuza - 4-10-2012 at 02:55 AM