Power Kite Forum - Why do they drop good kite models?

Why do they drop good kite models?

Bladerunner - 20-10-2012 at 09:02 AM

I find myself thinking about Pansh a lot as I wait for the Aurora.

I have always been sort of on the fence about the brand. They go about things so differently.

One of the MANY things this company does that goes against convention is continues to make each model available even as they expand to new kites. I like this approach.

I know that I felt left in the dust when they dropped the Synergy and they said the Charger was the answer?

The recent talk about Ozones new kite replacing the Manta...

Why don't conventional kite companies keep up past models ?

flyjump - 20-10-2012 at 09:41 AM

I know man! I feel the same way. I used to wonder how many more kites peter lynn would sell if the venom line up was still available.

Craig Sparks was complaining about the flexi blades at nabx and liked one of the older models better than one of the newer ones. I know that companies are always trying to improve things and make things look better to make more money. But do they really make more money from it?

I'm with you on this one Ken

markite - 20-10-2012 at 10:17 AM

bottom line is cost.
You have to think about numbers and production. If you are a company ordering from a factory in China, they need to set up production to make that particular kite and then cutting all of the patterns etc is only viable if you have minimum numbers and then for all the sizes so you would need to produce at least several hundred kites at a time. Then how many do you really expect to sell and how long will you sit on that stock which translates into money sitting there because you need to pay the factory right away for production and shipping and warehousing etc.
Then from a dealer perspective, as new kites come out everyone gets drawn into the initial hype of newer and better and the dump off previous kites cheap so that right away kills the price on previous models and then dealers are left holding stock they can't sell. At one time dealers here had venom 1s they couldn't sell because Venom 2s came out, then Sitting on Scorpions and Vortex and all were sold off below dealer cost eventually and that drives down the used kite price again.

With a factory like Pansh they have all the material etc and production and quality control isn't as finicky and as expensive material wise as it would be with other styles of kites like arcs. So the factory that is selling direct can make a lot of kites and sit on excess stock and slowly clear it out, no extra cost to them. and they aren't doing production at the same cost they charge customers to produce kites in the factory.

Just to add a little more - kite companies are driven by sales and client demands. People always want something better so as designs are developed you sometimes have evolutionary changes and sometimes revolutionary. In general a company will try to tweak a good design with evolutionary modifications and you get 2nd and 3rd generation etc. When the change is significant enough that would warrant a new kite name. The company is always thinking this one is better than the last so why hang onto the last. It may take a while before the customers say they prefer an old model and again what would that translate into actual sales? 20 people saying they prefer older or even 100 people saying it doesn't mean the 100 people will buy the old design again.
Companies do respond to the needs of the customer, it might take time but there are lot of factors that need to fall into place along the line and we don't always understand the cost implications.

Bladerunner - 20-10-2012 at 12:19 PM

Great points and I think the 1st point is the biggy.

Hard to sell a new Venom at the $1000 or more it would cost when you can pick up near new at $250 .There are enough old Pansh kites out there they should be fighting their own deflated resale values by now ???

I suspect they get way with it because people go there looking at the price ticket with very little knowledge of the second hand market or power kites in general.

I know without a doubt the " new gear every year " attitude is real common. There are ton's of advantages in keeping it fresh. Improvements do happen. Ego's need fed . I just feel that people who aren't out for an aggresive arc got kind of ignored . I'm old and don't like change !

Most of of all I'm having kite the demo kite Jones. :ticking:

I would be a lot happier having a Phantom II ( and soon Charger II ) to cry about !

kitedelight - 20-10-2012 at 08:34 PM

pretty sure that's the biggy,
still costs the same to make the older design, but every year it's a bit harder to sell that older tech.

case in point, the FS P4 has had great longevity (excellent design!) but pretty sure few people are interesting in buying the P4 at full price at this point, I'm sure lots are in the qeue waiting for the p5.

part of me wonders if it's easier to sell older FB tech to the hobby vs the depower market?

shaggs2riches - 20-10-2012 at 09:13 PM

I know right?? Its not like they have suddenly lost the patterns and are no longer capable of making the kite if they wanted to. I thought it would be great if you could put in a special order from a company to have an old kite made for you. Lets say your favorite kite is a Speed2 or a Venom1, at the cost of special order fees, time wait and possible color limitations, you could order up said kite. But instead you have to search the used market and find one. While you still get your dream kite its not the same feeling as opening up fresh ripstop. :dunno:

kitedelight - 22-10-2012 at 09:35 AM

I don't know the exact manufacturing procedure, but I am assuming even if the design in available, the factory probably still doesn't have all the parts and material.
I would think that the factory only keeps the materials on hand for their current big projects. (ie, only spools of bridle material that they are using, not spools of all the common bridle line sizes, etc)

It would be interesting if PL did a VII and/or synergy small rerun though, super popular kites, bet it would be worth it.

bigkid - 22-10-2012 at 10:32 AM

I finally got to this post and find it interesting as to the reasons why they are not made. I agree to some of the points, but it is one of those things that some could care less about.
As for PKD, I know that the $$ isn't always the reason why they come and go. If I want to get some of the older style kites that are no longer made, I make a call and order 5 and let them know the colors and size and in a couple weeks life is good.
Pansh is the manufacturer, as is PKD, so it is good business to sell kites of all sizes and styles and makes if there is a buck to be made. Why get rid of something if it is making money? It has to do with someone sitting at a desk making decisions for you and telling you what you like, want, and need. If they are full enough of themselves than they will push the sport in a direction they feel they can make the most money. I feel Flexi did this to the dealers and the customers.
Pansh is about cornering the market and the making a name for himself to show daddy he is a man daddy can be proud of.
Not to say $$ is not the only reason, but most of the reason for a model to come and go. I think of the Beamer I and how the Beamer V is now and wonder why did they do things the way they did. With the Alpha taking the place of the Beamer I and II, the sky is the limit as where the Beamer will go if it does. I thought the Cross Fire was a bit ahead of its time and loved that kite, so of course it went byby.

If you like a kite, and want it to stay and or return, write the company and tell them. Or you can tell them that the new model is the stupidest thing they have ever made, and what in the world were you all thinking when this came to your mind?

Oddly enough we do have a say in the kites and which way the kites fly us. I have asked and got some great responses while other times it fell on deaf ears, not sure as to the future of Flexi, but time has or I mean will tell.

markite - 22-10-2012 at 10:39 AM

There is probably a lot of misunderstanding on how kites are made in factories now - it's not someone laying out a template and hand cutting panels and then going to the sewing tables.
There is the set up on machines that cut multiple layers of nylon at once then having all of the unique parts - have a look at an arc and each panel is a different shape and each rib changes in size etc etc and then all the sewing goes to different parts of the factory set up for that task - so much would have to be done. It's a little like going to a any car assembly line and saying can you put together a model for me from 2 years ago. That's very extreme comparison, but the cost involved doing one offs or even a couple dozen on an old design would be ridiculous.

You always have to look at things from a practical business perspective. A company decides they want to make and sell a kite design. They need a large chunk of money to work up designs, pay the salaries of staff and overhead and development etc all through the process where they have yet to go into production. They would make prototypes and finally go into production having to pay for everything right away from the factory and then all the costs involved in shipping, receiving, storing, filling orders and again day to day overhead of any business. Now on top of that how do you get info out there about a new kite - any advertising whether print ads or web or anything is very expensive and then do you get some team riders to promote the kites etc - by the time the kite hits the market you are into huge amounts of money in total cost/expense. Now you need to start selling to pay off this debt and at some point start to make a profit - and it needs to be a reasonable profit to not only pay what was owing but to provide the income for continuing expenses to operate the business and now have enough money to put towards developing the next kite and add more debt. The business cannot be profitable with one kite design so you need to have different income streams from a number of products.
It's hard for companies because they always want to provide good products but customers always expect something new and better or different - that takes a lot of unseen expense exploring various ideas - some pan out, some don't. If you produce a kite that ends up not selling too many at retail level and the user base starts feeding off the used market but not new then it becomes a dangerous slope. there is not enough demand for new, money has been tied up in the newest products that they can't sell - everyone starts to cut prices to try and break even but that doesn't do anything to provide working capital for new development. The user base slowly shrinks and new products are not released as often and eventually the product simply isn't worthwhile producing.

On forums we often get passionate about what we like or don't like and it's hard to look at the bigger picture. When I say I loved this kite in the buggy and we should have that one you gotta look world wide to see if that style of kite is even being used and then you realize that over the forum and the people that would truly go out and buy that new kite it maybe 15 people... 30 people..50 more? would they all want the exact same size kite and the rest want another size or another difference in colour preferences? It's a very small number to make it even worthwhile considering. When I did kite design for the kites we sold at Costco (now these are cheaper to a broader family base) we were talking about hundreds of thousands of kites produced each year and even with those numbers at a very low retail price the profits didn't start until 90% of stock sold. Costco made money but as the kite manufacturer and supplier, not as much as you'd think. But that is quite different from higher end kites.

It would be interesting to pick a kite that you think is popular right now and then ask on the forum how many people have that one - I think you would be really surprised in the numbers.

Back in the day when the early generation of arcs were coming out there was a huge user base and kiteboarding was taking off at the same time. We had a couple dozen arc users right around my area and then that many again within a few hours drive. But everyone wanted characteristics that appealed to surfing - faster, more power. The kites evolved, everyone moved on to other models or eventually different kites all together. Now years later some people still look at certain older kites with fondness but would not consider buying the old kite again - perhaps one size (most people loved a 13m for different reasons). The numbers just wouldn't be there on a re-run. The other part of the problem is new users. You can say new riders would buy it .... "if they knew". If you have to educate a customer on a product that is a death sentence for small business - you cannot afford to teach everyone that this is the greatest product even if it is. What happens is you spend all of your money trying to educate and as soon as the numbers are starting to look good a big company will say thank you for all the leg work and squash your business - or a company in China will now finds it easy to make a knock off at half the price.

So everything generally moves forward. But you are right every once in a while a company brings back an oldie but a goodie.

Sorry I gotta stop typing these long boring posts and just do a few points. And I don't want to come off sounding negative just trying to get people to understand things a little better from all perspectives - and these are just my opinions.

bigkid - 22-10-2012 at 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by markite
There is probably a lot of misunderstanding on how kites are made in factories now - it's not someone laying out a template and hand cutting panels and then going to the sewing tables.

not everyone has or will be going the rout of the bazillion at once machines, I know of one that is still cutting by hand and they are more than busy with there own kites and much more. I was told the percentage of error goes up with the mega-cut machines, small hand cut numbers are more precise. And to top it off they have only a small number of people sewing the kites, and not the assembly line stuff either, beginning to the end with only minor work by another to finish. Might be the assembly line way in China but not that way with the new factories of a few factory owned kite makers.

bigkid - 22-10-2012 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
Great points and I think the 1st point is the biggy.

Hard to sell a new Venom at the $1000 or more it would cost when you can pick up near new at $250 .There are enough old Pansh kites out there they should be fighting their own deflated resale values by now ???

I suspect they get way with it because people go there looking at the price ticket with very little knowledge of the second hand market or power kites in general.

I know without a doubt the " new gear every year " attitude is real common. There are ton's of advantages in keeping it fresh. Improvements do happen. Ego's need fed . I just feel that people who aren't out for an aggresive arc got kind of ignored . I'm old and don't like change !

Most of of all I'm having kite the demo kite Jones. :ticking:

I would be a lot happier having a Phantom II ( and soon Charger II ) to cry about !

I don't know what the cost is to produce the Pansh kites today, but I do know that a few years ago the 12m Blaze cost them $8.52 to my front door. Thats R&D(more than likely someone elses, and they just borrowed the info), material, labor, shipping. With the big boys the cost is closer to 1/2 of the resale number. They spend much more in advertizing and they also have a group of people that get some of the profits instead of 1 person.

If the bottom line of a kite company is all about the $$ and it's not about the sport or the people in the sport, I would have to rethink my association with them. Is that all that the sport is, or business? Just like rooting for your favorite football team whose owner is hoping you don't understand the business, or er a I mean the sport. :no:

We, as the ones who spend money have more power to shape this sport and make changes than we are lead to believe. When was the last time you told a kite company you were not happy or you were happy and why? That how change is made. I hope I am not the only one.

BeamerBob - 22-10-2012 at 12:11 PM

There is a certain kite company which I've had a dialog with about their product line, treatment of dealers and such and they didn't get it. They are seen as a once dominant company whose products have fallen from newest and most innovative. My words fell on deaf ears. In my opinion they are still in decline and others are noticing. Multiple dealers have stopped carrying or stocking their products here in the US while others continue selling and marketing their products. Time will tell about the final outcome.

shaggs2riches - 22-10-2012 at 04:50 PM

Wow!! I gotta start knowing people. There is a lot I never really consider. I understand (and half understood before) how there could be a lot gone into a product before it hits the customer. Its very clear why companies have to move forward in order to stay competitive. With that said, how many companies would you see revive a model if they saw a huge demand for it?? I'm willing to bet that not to many actually would. It always seems to be a forward thinking mind frame, where often what is working well gets dropped and forgotten.:dunno:

markite - 22-10-2012 at 06:47 PM

Phantom 2 - it all started by listening to riders:D

shaggs2riches - 22-10-2012 at 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markite
Phantom 2 - it all started by listening to riders:D

Ha never considered that. :thumbup:

BeamerBob - 22-10-2012 at 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markite
Phantom 2 - it all started by listening to riders:D

That's true and they didn't turn it loose till they got it right. I remember the conversations floating around in 2010 at nabx.

lives2fly - 23-10-2012 at 01:59 AM

Interesting thread.

I definately find it annoying that kites get dropped and that the replacements do not always seem to be an improvement (from my perspective at least)

My treasured 13m Venom for example has never been matched by the newer Arcs in my opinion. But it was not around long before the Venom II came out.

The Bullet was always a better kite than the Rage too - although its more agressive which I guess would put many off. The Blade also seemed to peak at Version 3. After than they started toning down the features that made everyone talk about the kite in the first place!

As we move into the 2013 season from a marketing point of view I am pretty disapointed to see that Naish have dropped Sigma kites from their range after trying to persuade the market for 4 seasons that they offered unique advantages. What are they saying? - That they were lying about the design the whole time? They are awesome kites so I know they weren't lying. I guess they just didn't convince the market.

They are quite popular in the UK. If you go to our premiere spots you always see them. However if you go to Mainland Europe - Somewhere like Tarifa (European kitesurf Mecca) there can be 500 kites on the beach and only a handfull will be sigmas.

Unfortunately good designs will not always be popular and however close to the sport a kite manufacturer is - they still need to turn a profit and make their products appeal to the broadest spectrum possible.

I really hate the seasonal marketing frenzy in many of the sports i love - Mountain biking; snowboarding; kiting - as they try and get you to drop perfectly good gear and replace it with new stuff.

bigkid - 23-10-2012 at 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by markite
Phantom 2 - it all started by listening to riders:D

I agree