Power Kite Forum

Why not starting with an ARC kite

Nfish - 23-10-2012 at 08:11 AM

I'm still a beginner as far as kitting goes, but just want to share some of my experience here.

I started out with a FB kite (Pansh Ace 3m...yeah, I know), and I'd have to say it was a tough start. It may not be a big kite but it was like taming a wild horse. I've been dragged and tossed around by it; still good fun, but frustrating.

So I found this forum and learned quite a few things just by reading all the posts and got myself a PKD Buster 3m for an easy start. It's much more tamed, but I still could not move more than 10m on my landboard with it. Not sure where the problem was: - the wind, kite, board, sand, or myself (most likely…).

Then, I finally decided to post on this forum and ask for some help which was the best move I've ever made. I met with Van and tried his Phantom 15m, which was the first Depower kite that I've ever used. I was so amazed at that time that this kite just stayed at the zenith without me having to do anything. 10 minutes later, I was on the board running down the beach...and the same day, I was on the VTT buggie (awesome buggie BTW) cruising along and turning as well.

With lots of help and suggestions from Van, I've got myself a Venom 16m and a Libre buggie from this forum, and I had a blast on the beach this past weekend on my buggie. I could not thank Van enough to introducing the ARC kites to me.

So, my point is why don't beginners start with ARC kites? It just seem to me that they are effortless to fly, great kites to learn on, and very easy (safer as well) to recover from mistakes (just let the bar go and it'll automatically reset to the zenith). I saw many posts of new kiters starting with FB kites with difficulties and scary moments, I'd suggest trying an ARC kite and you may enjoy it.

Just my 2 cents.

martinipro - 23-10-2012 at 08:24 AM

Small FB will teach you about the Wind Window, zenith, how a power kite works, how to control it and how it behaves.

I agree Arcs make great first de-power because of how gentle they are, once you get used to launching them.

rocfighter - 23-10-2012 at 08:33 AM

I agree with Martin, Arcs are great kites. But before you hook into a 13,15,17m arc you really should know what the wind can do. A FB 2-4m will give you a chance to learn the window, learn to control the power, and learn some lessons before you hook in. Though these arcs are gentle giants they can kick your ass as fast as a FB can. And they are a lot bigger and YOU ARE HOOKED TO THEM!!:cool: Have fun with the big kites after you learn the wind.:lol:

g00fba11 - 23-10-2012 at 09:15 AM

There are other Pansh kites that would probably been a better choice than an Ace to start on......

That being said. I also quickly made the move to arcs. I love them. It also sounds like you had some great guidance and maybe a bit of help from a great guy (Van) so you were not starting out in the dark with these kites. That is a good thing. I will tell you first hand that an arc can shanghai you just as quickly as a FB. I learned both the hard way as I have no one around to assist in the learning curve. I had a trip to GA and met Angus and boy, one day with that guy sure helped leaps and bounds.....then I got to spend a couple days with flyjump.....and got another great learning experience. Then on to NABX where I through everything I learned out the window and went out and tried something I knew nothing about and flipped an Ivanpah on top of me......

Whenever you get a chance to learn from someone like Van, Angus, Flyjump, Phreerider, Bladerunner, Popeyethewelder, Bobby, and so many others I know I am forgetting to list here......jump on it......Every time I go out I always wonder if I really got it right...... I have many to ask on the forum...or on skype or by phone..... but there is nothing like hands on for really getting things down.

Bottom line.....I think arcs are a great kite to learn on and are awesome for beginners if you have someone experienced to get you going on the right path......they can be a bit of a bugger if you got to sort out a bar, pigtails trim and such to get one up and tuned right......

BeamerBob - 23-10-2012 at 10:40 AM

I agree with the whole bunch above and will stress what goof said. With a large de power kite in the wind, you have a sort of leverage that you can use to your advantage or the wind can use against you. It's still best to put in some time learning what the kite will do before it does it, then a flier is ready to put a larger kite up and properly control that leverage and power.

g-force junkie - 23-10-2012 at 06:08 PM

Nfish ,I totally agree, why not start with an arc? I've had my ass handed to me over and over on small fb's with many injuries . then lucked out and picked up a 10mtr Venom and a Navigator bar, absolutely the safest and most fun kite i'd flown, never looked back and can fly anything now

Streetrider56 - 23-10-2012 at 07:08 PM

I started flying a Rush pro 350 to learn. Next up was an 11m Frenzy that belonged to a young guy who taught me the way of depower. It was quite a jump but winds were light and I had put in a lot of effort in keeping it up in the air.
I still hear his voice in my head "work it, work it"
Liked it so much I bought one. Well soon after he was redeployed and I was on my own. Lucky winds were cooperating in his absence.

I've read alot how the Arcs are gust munchers and was curious as most of my flying is inland.
I found a great deal on a Venom 2 19m & Navigator bar for what I thought would be for those light days, the price was to right to pass up.


Today was the day to fly it for the first time. Winds were 10 - 15 mph with some lulls to 5 mph and changes in direction.
Wasn't sure what to expect so I wrapped the CL around a soccer goal :eureka: and up she went straight to zenith.
Hovering and swaying a bit I grabbed the bar to get a feel and found this needs to be on my harness.
All I could say is "wow". It was much more easier than the Frenzy in these winds. It has me thinking Arcs may be more to my liking.

There is no substitute for the learning process that forum members stress. IMO these guys & gals are the experts and wouldn't
steer you wrong.

Feyd - 23-10-2012 at 07:12 PM

I agree with all the above for the most part but I would guess that everyone here, myself included started on something other than an Arc. I teach people on trainers first to learn how to use the window as thier primary form of power management. When that is dialed I'm happy to move to an Arc but I'm not comfortable taking a first time rider out on an Arc w/o any prior kite handling expirience. I tend to be on the cautious side of things.

Arcs in the right conditions are extremely well behaved, predictable kites but as a first kite, w/o any other kite expirience, getting used to thier little quirks can be a lot of frustration. What if you didn't have the benefit of having an expirienced Arc flyer on hand. Imagine if the first Arc you flew was a Charger 3/4 inflated for example. Even though it has many of the great attributes of an Arc it can be a wicked kite when things get ugly. One thing I never do is become complacent or assume that I have everything under control. It's a wind sport and control is an illusion IMO.

I had my ass handed to me by a 2m FB in the beginning and if I threw a 10m Venom up in the same conditions that day I probably wouldn't be here now. But over time I've gotten more comfortable with Arcs and I'll fly my 19m Charger in the same winds I got flogged by my 2m in. But I still keep my guard up. ;-)

Of course this can apply to any large kite that you've hooked into I suppose.

pbc - 23-10-2012 at 07:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nfish
...

So, my point is why don't beginners start with ARC kites? It just seem to me that they are effortless to fly, great kites to learn on, and very easy (safer as well) to recover from mistakes (just let the bar go and it'll automatically reset to the zenith). I saw many posts of new kiters starting with FB kites with difficulties and scary moments, I'd suggest trying an ARC kite and you may enjoy it.

Just my 2 cents.


I think I wrote this same post about a year ago. Arcs are great kites. I think newbs should start on a 3m FB, then move to an Arc. It's a great path.

That said, I am with Goof. If you can learn at the hands of an experienced Arc flier you will learn sooo much sooo fast. I'm mostly self taught, but I watched a few experienced Arc fliers handling their kites and it was an epiphany. There are tricks that cannot be conveyed in words as easily as a single demo can do it.

Philip

zero gee - 23-10-2012 at 08:13 PM

I don't know... Personally, I will never put a person on a FB kite again. This is the 21st century after all. FB kites scare the heck out of me now (they are positively medievel). I'd rather put a beginner on an ARC (or other depower for that matter). Even a big ARC (same rule applies, lighter winds first). IMO, the twinskin is the ultimate in user friendlyness (there are just so many reasons) by comparison to even the friendliest of FB kites.

There is really no need to teach the wind, the window and kite control with a dangerous power kite. I use a small ParaStunter (cheap!) converted to quad. This is a robust, easy /fun to fly, super fast kite with a very light feel. It has little to no pull even in 70kph (an experienced buggy pilot can ride with it in 70kph, looks funny as hell :) ). It can be used safely in any wind to teach. If they can keep this kite in the air without looking at it and crashing it, they can fly just about anything afterwards. After flying a Parastunter a beginner often finds they can feel where the ARC is in the window easier (with a bar too) and have tons of time to correct steering errors even with a small ARC. Over correcting steering errors is where beginners get into trouble most. Then, to get them used to the power, body dragging across the snow or water in lighter winds is best. It is amazing how fast someone can pick things up this way.

True, learning to kite is best with guidance. It's safer and progress will be faster that way.

shaggs2riches - 23-10-2012 at 09:19 PM

I think of it like learning to drive car. Now this is just my opinion, but I think everyone should learn to drive a manual transmission, then automatic afterwards. Learning on a fixed bridle gives you the chance to understand kite position to control power. On a depower many just rely of sheeting that they get complacent where to position the kite. Arcs also take a bit more patience that a beginner might get frustrated and give up. Also I think that getting spanked by a 2-4m kite gives you just the right respect, that when you get to big sails you are a bit intimidated keeping you more conscience a out what you are doing. If you jumped on 10-12m arc, later you may overlook the difference between a 10-12m arc and most every other 10-12m depower possibly getting hurt. But again this is just my 2cents.

lives2fly - 24-10-2012 at 02:10 AM

My first experience with a kite was a 5m fixed bridle - during the course of a morning I learned basic set up and control and wind theory in 8-10mph.

In the afternoon (thanks to my friends impressive kite collection) I flew a 9m Frenzy, a 13m bomba and a 15m flexifoil LEI (cant remember the model)

The arc was the one I liked best so thats what I bought to learn with a couple of years later when I moved to the coast. I quickly bought a 3.5m fixed bridle aswell though so I could get out quickly and easily in a bigger range of conditions and I think its fair to say that the fixed bridle is the one that taught me to fly.

I do think the 3-4m trainer kite is the way to get into kite sports. Its just so easy & versatile and its a raw experience that makes you appreciate more sophisticated depower kites later on.

There is less to choose between different depower styles in 2012 though. The Most user friendly kite I own today is a Naish Park, quickly followed by my Ozone Access. My Venom is actually the least user friendly depower I have (not counting the X3's !!!!) though I still love it and will fly it till it falls apart.

Times change and open cells and LEIs have evolved beyond Arcs in my opinion. I still haven't had the chance to use a flysurfer though... 19m Speed 3 is on the shopping horizon somewhere :)

Bladerunner - 24-10-2012 at 06:35 AM

There is a huge difference between being stuck completely on your own and having somebody to show you how to fly. This applies as much and more when talking arcs.

I have had a person from zero to flying my 15m Synergy within hours. Even then we started on a FB. An arc is a fine 1st depower . Even better if you have an assistant who knows arcs. Once they are in the air they are a dream. Ground handling is what makes them a bother. Learning the little tricks is what a new flyer on his own has to struggle with.

elfasa - 24-10-2012 at 09:24 AM

Following this thread is making me want a depower quiver :(

pbc - 24-10-2012 at 09:40 AM

If you start used, an Arc quiver is not that pricey. I found that a 16m/10m pair with one long bar made a good quiver for buggying. Other Arc fliers on this forum have said the same. The wind range on these kites is that large.

It takes experience to fly that 16m kite in wind more suited to a 13m. The same can be said for trying to eek out enough power when you're flying the 10m in wind better suited to a 13m, but both work.

Sure I like having a 13m in the middle, but I am considering going from a 16m/13m/10m Scorp quiver to a 15m/9m Phantom II quiver just to save cash. My biggest concern about selling my 13m kite is that it will make it harder to teach people.

Philip

abkayak - 24-10-2012 at 10:38 AM

i cant wait to spend a day w/ an arc.... but so glad i walked the fb path first. i think the spankings i have been handed were part of the deal, and were pretty much invited by pushing the kite. those hrs flying fb also make you respect all kites, particularly larger ones.... secondly to not be comfortable flying w/ handles i know would have been a mistake for me... 3rd i never would have unfurled all that ripstop of an arc by myself....probably wouldn't have even figured it out . now i'll try anything... but i have to say the thought of being tethered to 15+meters is still hard for me to grasp

g00fba11 - 24-10-2012 at 12:43 PM

You have to remember with arcs what the project area is. Don't get to tied up in the numbers.

A 13m Venom II and a 15m Synergy have the same projected area of 9.2 sqm.

I think it was Phree who once said about arcs..... it is the "effective area" that counts.....

van - 24-10-2012 at 01:50 PM

Nfish loves his arc because he's got the perfect condition to fly it in .. smooth onshore winds ( 10 - 12mph). Also, I was with him to give him the proper instructions on how the kite flys and what wind to fly it in. It does make a difference whether or not you have help to learn this sport. I have to say, he's a quick learner. Got dragged all over the beach the first time but he did learn to respect the wind window after that.

You also have to realize that not all arcs are the same. I would not put a beginner on a Charger in strong wind. A large Phantom in mild wind will be alot easier to handle. I've taught many locals to landboard on my phantom with very little instructions. Before they even touch the kite, I show them the proper way to fly and launch one. Then I totally depower the kite with the trim strap. They can then learn to move the kite through the window with very little pull. You can learn everything about the wind window with a depower.

Nfish - 24-10-2012 at 03:03 PM

Well, I guess my limited experience on the FB probably helped a bit on learning the Arc, and fast tracked by the great instructions from Van.

The thing is that I have no place near my house to practice flying skills, and the nearest beach is 1.5 hour (3HR round-trip ) away. I'll have to wait for a good windy weekend to fly and then were frustrated by not being able to enjoy the flying with these rare chances. So, quickly being able to enjoy on the board and the buggie really saved me starting giving up this awesome sport. Not saying that you shouldn't get your basic down first, but we do need motivation sometimes as well.

Mark.

kitedelight - 24-10-2012 at 03:48 PM

My preference would be to put somebody on a kite in the 2-3m range first, whether it be a trainer kite, FB, etc in the correct winds....basically to hammer in the basics skills so that excessive worry about the extra power isn't a problem. Plus, just gives a level of confidence to step up to bat with the bigger depower and to gain the most from it without excessive fear (or nieve fearlessness).

after that, would say a slower turning stable kite is great. Some arcs fit the bill, some sizes of the VI and VII for sure. Something that is gonna stay in the air easy and won't mess the beginner from an accidental pull of the bar.

WELDNGOD - 24-10-2012 at 04:02 PM

Learning on FB ,makes you a WAY better flier. De-power is like an automatic transmission in a car. Makes it easy for your grandma to fly one! :lol::lol:

FB FOR LIFE!:frog:

doneski - 24-10-2012 at 04:24 PM

ARCs are safe, fun and can be great kites to learn on. I think the biggest driver of how safe and fun it is, and how quickly you learn, is whether you do everything by yourself or learn from someone with ARC experience. Ground handling, launching and landing are easy once you see how it's done. Trying to figure it out on your own can be done but if the kite isn't set up properly or you don't inflate it properly you'll have no idea why it wont launch or fly right. Once in the air and filled properly they are really a joy to fly.

I fly ARCs but I'm giving my kids low aspect fixed bridle kites to learn on.
- They're easy to set up and fly.
- They're predictable.
- They can be launched and landed with no help.
- Just let go of the handles if there's a problem.
- I made extension lines for the kite killers; kite stays with me if the person I'm teaching lets go of the handles.

Anyone who locks into a de-power kite before they know how to fly can get into real trouble real quick.

doneski - 24-10-2012 at 04:27 PM

PS: I want my son to have arms of steel like Weldngod. Don't know what to do with my daughter. Probably move her to a strop and harness ASAP.

Feyd - 24-10-2012 at 04:47 PM

Well said doneski.

WELDNGOD - 24-10-2012 at 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by doneski
PS: I want my son to have arms of steel like Weldngod. Don't know what to do with my daughter. Probably move her to a strop and harness ASAP.



;-)

pbc - 24-10-2012 at 07:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WELDNGOD
Learning on FB ,makes you a WAY better flier. De-power is like an automatic transmission in a car. Makes it easy for your grandma to fly one! :lol::lol:

FB FOR LIFE!:frog:
...
PKD COMBAT 2.4m / 4.2m
PKD CENTURY II 2.8m/ 8.0m /10.0m(PG nylon)
PKD CENTURY 5.5m (1 GEN.)
PKD BUSTER SOULFLY 1.5m/2.2m/3.3m/4.4m
PKD BUSTER 5.5m(1 GEN.)
MY FLEXIFOILS
RAGE 2.5m/3.5m/4.7m
STING 1.7m (PUNK) actually belongs to the wife...But I have used it in really high winds!
REVOLUTION 1.5m SLE
...


Good lord look at the size of that quiver. If you flew Arcs you wouldn't need so damn many kites.

Philip

shaggs2riches - 24-10-2012 at 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by doneski
PS: I want my son to have arms of steel like Weldngod. Don't know what to do with my daughter. Probably move her to a strop and harness ASAP.


Oh boy there's a whole other thread out there on how to get arms of steel like Weldngod. It involves a lot of talk about balls. :P

geokite - 25-10-2012 at 09:06 AM

I would never teach my wife on an arc. She can keep a kite in the air, is learning the wind window, and will fly a FB with no harness until SHE wants something more. The ability to simply let go on the dry lake bed will save her from certain road rash.

If you can comfortably use a harness with a FB, then and only then should you move to an arc. Speaking from 18 years in the buggy, 23 years with power kites.

Yes, my quiver is great.

lives2fly - 25-10-2012 at 09:41 AM

I feel lots safer hooked into an SLEI than any fixed bridle kite. All of my newer inflatables depower almost 100%, if you let go of the bar, and scuttle off to the edge of the window. If there is a decent amount of wind they sit obediently on their wing tip waiting to launch again.

I've been hauled accross the beach by fixed bridles even after pulling the main safety if they had enough twists through the lines before I pulled it. with a depower bar you can spin the bar and then pull the ejector switch at least!

I agree that depowers are not the best thing for your initial flying experiences but hooked in they are way safer

indigo_wolf - 25-10-2012 at 11:22 AM

For good or ill, I think a lot of the sentiments here are posted in hindsight. Not neccessarily a bad thing, but in addition to the skill ramp that you have to climb over, there is a sticker shock ramp that seems to be being overlooked here.

My very first introduction to kites as an "adult" was visiting the High Flyers Flight Company in Newport, RI. I popped into the store while I was visiting the area and my eyes kind of boggled at all the the different types of kites in one location. Great googly moogly.... this was the mythical brick & mortar kite store that few are lucky enough to have local to them :o Quite honestly, I didn't even ask how much anything cost because I was too afraid of falling in love with something that was out of my price range.

My second introduction was at a tourist shop in Camden, ME. They had a New Tech Cherry Bomb hanging from the ceiling and I could just make out the price tag which was the princely sum of $35, but the bug had bit and I took it home.

My first attempts at flight were probably comical and I am sure I provided some amusement for the truck driver who had pulled into the high school parking lot to grab 40 winks. I am also sure I did my fair share of providing the local mosquito population with sustenance.

Over time, the wallet got desensitived with purchases of a Krystal FX WW for $200, Prism Prophecy and Thor's Hammer for $300 each.

Then Steve at GWTW had some 2-line Thunderfoils (1.4M and 1.7M) on clearance for $40 - $50 each with the cool double dragon motif:



And that was it.... I wanted some foils dagnabit.... so some Flexfoil Stings in Punk (1.2M) and Petrol (2.4m) joined the family.

And then it was on.... Bullets, and Rages, and Combats, Oh My...

Sometimes FBs and their cost on the secondary market helps the SO swallow the bitter pill of your growing quiver and dwindling bank account.

How many times have folks come onto PKF looking for a board, harness, and kite suitable for learning and jumping in winds from 5-25mph (blissfully ignoring the added cost of helmet and pads).

Basically, FBs regardless of whether they are 2, 3 or 4 lines are the gateway drug. You might move on or they may always have a place in your quiver. And while they might not always munch gusts as effectively as Arcs, they require less wind to get airborne in the anemic winds of summer when a lad's fancy turns to nylon dancing in the breeze.

ATB,
Sam