Power Kite Forum

Stay off the ice (horrible tragedy)

shaggs2riches - 25-11-2012 at 05:46 PM

Don't know anyone involved, but thought it would be a good thing to share. Even though winter has arrived, I suspect that it will require a few good weeks of cold weather before its safe out there. :no:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/news/story/2012/11/24/montreal-ice...

Bassetman - 25-11-2012 at 08:58 PM

What can you say ...horrible. Be safe, use your head.

Prussik - 26-11-2012 at 09:21 AM

Whether the ice is usable or not cannot be judged by the calendar, day of the week, time of the day, temperature, the amount of water on top of it, how many weeks you wait for it, etc., etc., but only by its thickness and structure. Some of us have been regularly on the ice since late October. The blanket statements of "stay off the ice" sort are nothing but pure nonsense and are a common expression of icephobia used by moronic politicians to deny access to excellent and convenient locations such as Glenmore Res. in Calgary.

shaggs2riches - 26-11-2012 at 09:49 AM

Well I used the title more to point out that its basically been too early in many places for sufficient coverage. Most people know that you have to check the conditions before venturing out on the ice. Unfortunately there is always a story like leaves people wondering what those involved were thinking.

Feyd - 26-11-2012 at 10:46 AM

I think the general populace are unaware of what it takes to make "safe" ice. Unless it's part of your daily life why would you? Ice strength depends on so many variables that just aren't even on people's radar. They just assume cold=ice and that's not really the way it works.

It's unfortunate when things like this happen.

I spend most of my waking hours in the winter on ice and I've seen ice do some amazing things, unexpected things and learned a lot about it in the process. Contrary to what Prussik believes I think it's somewhat prudent to use time of year as a baseline for safe ice access. Obviously there are regional variations which I suppose is his point but I think the message Shaggs is going for here is that there is no rush and it's not worth getting killed just to get out on the ice early.


That said, as a kiter for my own personal fun I have pushed the limits off "safe " in the early season. But I dress accordingly and I have a kite that pulls me out when I fall through. Much different than the situation Shaggs shared.

alasdair macleod - 26-11-2012 at 10:51 AM

Just very sad!
Heart breaking for there hole family!

pongnut - 26-11-2012 at 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
... But I dress accordingly and I have a kite that pulls me out when I fall through...


:o Are you speaking from experience?

Feyd - 26-11-2012 at 12:05 PM

Not to Hijack the thread but here's an old blog entry about the first time I went through and some theories that were tested.

http://hardwaterkiter.blogspot.com/2010/03/all-stacked-up-la...

I recommend NOT going through the ice if you can avoid it. And the technique described in the blog is for skis not snowboards.

PrairieWind - 26-11-2012 at 12:57 PM

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=8255&pa...

PrairieWind - 26-11-2012 at 01:11 PM

And a little context of that original situation is good as well...

www.montrealgazette.com/news/Grandfather+grandson+after+fall...

This following video is not graphic, it shows the conditions where the accident occurred...

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/raw-fatal-skating-accide...

The grandfather was likely trying to keep the kid close to shore and likely never had a plan if things went wrong. So sorry for those involved.

snowspider - 26-11-2012 at 01:32 PM

Ice conditions and risks change from early winter when the ice is forming to late spring when its finaly gone.
Early hard thin ice , probably what these folk encountered.
Mid season has cracks that can open and glaze over , wide enough to fall through (personal experience). Gas bubbles can open 12" thick ice 4-5' diameter (personal experience)
Spring will see some really funky things as water on top flows thru the ice creating thick but weak conditions. Spring can also see thin floaty edges but thick safe ice just a little ways out.
I like 4" and I almost allways drill or chop test holes.

PrairieWind - 26-11-2012 at 01:33 PM

I'm pretty sure that your ice is good to go up at Lloyd. That is for you to check and be confident in.

Guys have been kiting on the ice at Pigeon and Wabamun - around 6" up there.

Check out the fishing discussion on www.outdoorsmenforum.ca for Alberta ice conditions. The only other people crazy enough to want ice are the fisherdudes.

indigo_wolf - 26-11-2012 at 01:37 PM



Note:
Anything like ice claws would probably need to be modified as they would be dangerous in a kite related spill.

Mental Checklist:


If all else fails, listen to your inner voice (one more time might be one too many) or your local psychic:



FWIW: No one ever plans for things to go wrong, but when they do it generally happens when you are least prepared and at a frightening pace.

ATB,
Sam

Feyd - 26-11-2012 at 05:10 PM

Ohhhhh man that was a great movie.

I watched that vid and judging by the fragments on the surface there is no way in hell that I would go on that ice. Not far anyway and not wothout the support of skis.

Indy's right man the bottom line is that seriously sucks for those involved.

You know, sadly we go through this every year with a post about some poor souls who go through the ice and then we revisit all the ice safety information (thanks indigo and prarie wind ) available on the web. Maybe we should have a permanent sticky thingy about ice safety in the Snowkiting area of the forum? Put all the useful ice safety info in there so people can reference it.


Just a thought.

thanson2001ok - 26-11-2012 at 05:14 PM

Good idea, Feyd. Great info Indie.

razeontherock - 8-12-2012 at 10:58 PM

So Feyd - what's the back scratcher?

elfasa - 9-12-2012 at 05:51 AM

Gosh, that's horrible! Like all of these kinda things people need to be careful, concentrate, and take the necessary precautions.

I don't live in a place where there is enough ice to warrant any skating, or kite activities etc. I can't say that I feel i'm missing out if i'm honest. Its a pretty hard landing if thjnfs go wrong. I wouldn't mind having a go at snow kiting. I imagine it's a nice soft landing.

Tim

Feyd - 9-12-2012 at 07:39 AM

Our current surface conditions. Not many places have ice here yet. Definately none of our larger areas.

This lake is about 1m deep so she sets up quick and is in a spot that gets limited sun.

A "backscratcher" is an old school ariel ski move that involves jumping, kicking both feet behind you until the tails of your skis touch your back.

When comming out of the hole in th ice it allows you to exit without your skis hanging up on the edge of the hole. You don't want to lose your skis if you've gone through the ice as you need them to distribute your weight on the ice to get back to shore.

our current conditions.jpg - 128kB

RedSky - 9-12-2012 at 10:48 AM

Tragic

shaggs2riches - 10-12-2012 at 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
Our current surface conditions. Not many places have ice here yet. Definately none of our larger areas.

This lake is about 1m deep so she sets up quick and is in a spot that gets limited sun.

A "backscratcher" is an old school ariel ski move that involves jumping, kicking both feet behind you until the tails of your skis touch your back.

When comming out of the hole in the ice it allows you to exit without your skis hanging up on the edge of the hole. You don't want to lose your skis if you've gone through the ice as you need them to distribute your weight on the ice to get back to shore.


Love that Picture!!

Actually surprised how long this thread grew. Guys up at the big lakes are reporting 10-15 inches of ice and some places they are driving all over them with big trucks. I'm giving it till the new year then gonna go drill a local lake to see how thick it is. Probably nothing to worry about now, but I'm working and won't have the time till after Christmas anyway. Figure another two-three weeks won't hurt anyway. Bought a new set of GNU Agro bindings that I can't wait to test out for snowkiting.:thumbup:

rocfighter - 12-12-2012 at 10:25 AM

I got TheKidd and I ice spikes. For those not familiar with the,, they are two handles with a string attached. You run them threw your sleeves and they hang out by your hands. If you are falling through or sliding toward a hole you grab them and hit the ice with them. There is a plastic tube at one end of each with a spike in it. When you hit the ice the tube retracts and the spike digs in.
I saw Snowspider had these last winter and decided we needed a set each as well.
If some one could post a website that would be great.

Roc on! Roc on ice

skimtwashington - 12-12-2012 at 11:42 AM

Dave is smart(and safe). Never seen retractable ones.... like to see pic of those/website.

I always wear ice 'tongs' (set spike handles in sheath) around my neck when I go out on frozen lake. Like putting on a helmet to ride.

Then I chop holes in scattered areas to check ice. (try io fill in holes(a hazard)-water percolating up after breakthrough will seal hole with time automatically).

Other optional safety stuff:
*cell phone in waterproof see-thru bag-you can press and dial through it.
*Whistle
* cut away knife

Maybe some more:wink2::
*self inflating raft backpack+ self inflating paddle!
*stay away From Rocfighter clotheslining you!
* abominable snowman repellent spray or body gel.

Where is this? How big an area?

skimtwashington - 12-12-2012 at 11:55 AM

Good grab Chris. Looks pretty glassy.

I may want to head north soon if good maybe. Getting tired of waiting for real winter to set up in MA.

I have a lake 6 blocks from me...Last winter s**ked and didn't hardly freeze. :no:

rocfighter - 12-12-2012 at 01:33 PM

Brian there real name is retractable Polar Picks. The web site is www.icefish.com