Power Kite Forum

Let's decide what these turns are really called (sorted now)

BeamerBob - 19-12-2012 at 10:31 AM

I've heard these called suicide gibes and just down turns. I think a suicide gibe is where you turn around the kite and pull it around upwind of you then sweep it on around to complete the turn. This is more of a trick than a tactical turning method IMHO.

Some have also said this is just a downturn. I feel it is more complicated than a simple downturn and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing a simple downturn at these speeds.

I don't consider myself expert on these, but these are the first ones I've caught on video. I've seen ways to improve them just from watching the video. They seem to work best when you just pull the kite up and turn, the more speed the better. Any advice on technique is welcome as well. Dakitez said he felt compelled to scream advice to me through the screen. Feel free but share the advice on here too please. :P

shehatesmyhobbies - 19-12-2012 at 10:52 AM

I call it a down loop turn. I did two with the 24 m phantom at WBB this past fall. Granted I was not going over 25 when I did them, but it still powers up strong. I learned from Todd to do that with the arcs a couple years ago.

Looks like some good runs!

BeamerBob - 19-12-2012 at 11:08 AM

The turn I call a downloop turn is done at slow speed and really builds the power due to the kite sweeping across the powerzone, but the kite isn't ever flying on apparent wind only.

mougl - 19-12-2012 at 11:13 AM

Def what I call a down turn...love em at higher speeds! :)

markite - 19-12-2012 at 11:37 AM

But it's not a down turn on the kite, it's an up and over swing.
When I do a downturn on the kite, you turn the buggy downwind and turn the kite down and under so it accelerates you through the turn and the kite is doing a 180 turn starting by going down.
What Bobby is doing is pulling the kite straight up - turning the buggy downwind as the kite slides across the top of the arc of the wind window and you keep pulling that same side of the bar so it now pulls it down the other side of your buggy as you change direction. In the process you go through that disconcerting moment of thinking you are criss crossing things and it's wrong - that's the point when you don't re-think it just keep pulling the same hand that initiated the move up and over now pulls it down the other side.
Now maybe this would be a suicide gibe because you end up turning the buggy around downwind. Turning the buggy upwind in the same should be a suicide tack but i've always heard people call it a gibe even though it's an upwind turn on the buggy.

Some names:

skimtwashington - 19-12-2012 at 11:37 AM

Going to China
kite catapult
the google
rolling return
flying flip
winged windmill
stringed somersault
spin to win
the down and back
the reach around:o

BeamerBob - 19-12-2012 at 12:07 PM

Thanks Mark. You understand the point that in my mind differentiates this turn from a downturn. No way would I just turn the kite down at over 40 mph since there would be too much sliding, too much speed lost and in the end you would just run under the kite and luff it IMHO.

Hmmmnn....

skimtwashington - 19-12-2012 at 12:21 PM

I believe I was on the back two seater of KiteGuru when he has downturned looped(not up and over) it.... with negligible loss of speed..followed by some brief accelleration...and remaining in general forward wind window position.

But he is the 'Guru' after all...
:wee:

popeyethewelder - 19-12-2012 at 01:24 PM

1.11 suicide gybes http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T...

again 2.06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdEYE1MKIH4

your look the same to me

BeamerBob - 19-12-2012 at 03:34 PM

POps in your first vid (M&S) someone did the other style suicide gybe right before the turn like mine at 1.11. Are they both suicide gybes? I agree that the two spots in the video you mention are the same turns I'm doing.

WIllardTheGrey - 19-12-2012 at 03:41 PM

I have read that the 360 through the window is a Dead-mans turn.

BeamerBob - 19-12-2012 at 05:09 PM

Ok, that would open the door to the turn in my video to be called the suicide gybe then. Willard maybe you have the key to this.

awindofchange - 19-12-2012 at 05:20 PM

I guess we need to clarify what a suicide is. IF the turn Bobby is doing is a suicide jibe, then a 360 would not be.

awindofchange - 19-12-2012 at 05:24 PM

When looking at the first video at 1:11, I do see the same turn that Bobby is doing - but had always figured that to just be a downturn. It looks a bit more complicated because the buggy turns way before the kite initiates the downturn and then the kite has to catch up. A suicide (from what I was lead to believe) is when the kite does a complete 360 around the buggy, ending up in the same direction as you start.

BeamerBob - 19-12-2012 at 05:37 PM

So Kent, is "deadmans turn" in your kiting vocabulary and if so, how is it done? Someone named all this stuff at one time so the answer must be out there somewhere.

MDK - 19-12-2012 at 09:31 PM

I have been calling them all down turns, do'em high at faster speeds like yours (yours are a little faster though) and low at lower speeds (most of the time). its all I ever do, not sure why, probably because that is what I always did flying static before I started buggying. I tried up turns, didn't like it. although up turns dont twist your lines which is nice.

markite - 19-12-2012 at 10:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MDK
I have been calling them all down turns, do'em high at faster speeds like yours (yours are a little faster though) and low at lower speeds (most of the time). its all I ever do, not sure why, probably because that is what I always did flying static before I started buggying. I tried up turns, didn't like it. although up turns dont twist your lines which is nice.


It sounds like you are still talking about something different than what Bobby is doing. With the kite doing an upturn or down turn the kite rotates 180 degrees to then go back in the other direction from how you started. In this move the kite is always pointing forward relative to what you see in the buggy. Think of it as sliding sideways straight up, turning the buggy downwind as the kite reaches the top of the the arc directly overhead still facing forward and continue to turn the buggy coming around the other direction as the kite continues this side slip down the other side of the arc.
If you are using handles and your right handle is attached to what is the upper wing (as the kite travels horizontal beside you) you start to pull on the right side slowly bringing the kite up higher but not turning the kite the other direction. You start turning the buggy downwind and keep pulling on that right handle. You need to move your hands now across in front of you as the kite is overhead and you turn the buggy more coming around in the opposite direction. At the same time you keep pulling on the right handle which now becomes the lower wingtip bringing the kite down to travel beside you and you will also have one wrap in the line. With a bar you can spin it out as seen in Bobby's video or ride with a crossed line.
The tricky part in your head is the point as it nears the zenith and you think for a moment you have everything in the wrong hands and backwards and second guess and bail on the turn - don't think about it just keep the kite moving by pulling with the same hand you start with through the whole move. And it's easier with some speed to get the kite up and across without it getting behind you.

Doing a 360 around with the kite and buggy starts with the kite doing a downturn and going the opposite direction and you do not turn the buggy right around to follow it. You turn the buggy just enough to keep tension on the kite line. The buggy curves around to the point where the kite did it's downturn and the kite is now where you were in the buggy when you started it. So the kite is now upwind of you and you need enough buggy speed and kite speed to keep it going past the zone of the kite being upwind. As the buggy continues it's arc of travel now pointing directly upwind the kite approaches what would be the normal edge of the wind window. Coming around a little more the kite now catches wind and is starting to zip across from the edge of the wind window toward directly downwind so you need to quickly turn the buggy and follow it otherwise it'll now race across downwind and get behind you going the other direction unless you turn sharply.
This is also unclear to me if this is a deadman - describing it as a 360 get's confusing if you think of a 360 as sliding and spinning a buggy 360 while continuing in the same line of travel compared to this move which is like running a 360 with a kite in light wind.

popeyethewelder - 19-12-2012 at 11:33 PM

Post your video on the FB kite buggying site asking the same question......get the European take on it to see it any light is shed

popeyethewelder - 19-12-2012 at 11:34 PM

Post your video on the FB kite buggying site asking the same question......get the European take on it to see it any light is shed

rocfighter - 20-12-2012 at 05:37 AM

Brian I don't even want to know about the "Reach Around!!"

MDK - 20-12-2012 at 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by markite
Quote:
Originally posted by MDK
I have been calling them all down turns, do'em high at faster speeds like yours (yours are a little faster though) and low at lower speeds (most of the time). its all I ever do, not sure why, probably because that is what I always did flying static before I started buggying. I tried up turns, didn't like it. although up turns dont twist your lines which is nice.


It sounds like you are still talking about something different than what Bobby is doing. With the kite doing an upturn or down turn the kite rotates 180 degrees to then go back in the other direction from how you started. In this move the kite is always pointing forward relative to what you see in the buggy. Think of it as sliding sideways straight up, turning the buggy downwind as the kite reaches the top of the the arc directly overhead still facing forward and continue to turn the buggy coming around the other direction as the kite continues this side slip down the other side of the arc.
If you are using handles and your right handle is attached to what is the upper wing (as the kite travels horizontal beside you) you start to pull on the right side slowly bringing the kite up higher but not turning the kite the other direction. You start turning the buggy downwind and keep pulling on that right handle. You need to move your hands now across in front of you as the kite is overhead and you turn the buggy more coming around in the opposite direction. At the same time you keep pulling on the right handle which now becomes the lower wingtip bringing the kite down to travel beside you and you will also have one wrap in the line. With a bar you can spin it out as seen in Bobby's video or ride with a crossed line.
The tricky part in your head is the point as it nears the zenith and you think for a moment you have everything in the wrong hands and backwards and second guess and bail on the turn - don't think about it just keep the kite moving by pulling with the same hand you start with through the whole move. And it's easier with some speed to get the kite up and across without it getting behind you.

Doing a 360 around with the kite and buggy starts with the kite doing a downturn and going the opposite direction and you do not turn the buggy right around to follow it. You turn the buggy just enough to keep tension on the kite line. The buggy curves around to the point where the kite did it's downturn and the kite is now where you were in the buggy when you started it. So the kite is now upwind of you and you need enough buggy speed and kite speed to keep it going past the zone of the kite being upwind. As the buggy continues it's arc of travel now pointing directly upwind the kite approaches what would be the normal edge of the wind window. Coming around a little more the kite now catches wind and is starting to zip across from the edge of the wind window toward directly downwind so you need to quickly turn the buggy and follow it otherwise it'll now race across downwind and get behind you going the other direction unless you turn sharply.
This is also unclear to me if this is a deadman - describing it as a 360 get's confusing if you think of a 360 as sliding and spinning a buggy 360 while continuing in the same line of travel compared to this move which is like running a 360 with a kite in light wind.


okay now I have a headache :) just kidding I think I understand what your saying. but in Bobby's video it looks the same except he travels downwind further in a bigger turn? and the kite is pointed downwind at the top while he is traveling downwind? well I will just have to ride with him (if he is willing to slow down a bit :) ) at NABX and hopefully learn something new, its hard to get perspective from the video.

BeamerBob - 20-12-2012 at 10:43 AM

Here is an excellent video and an example of the same turn (done with perfection too) but shown from the side. This turn was done in lower wind with larger kites so the speeds aren't as high, but all the moves are the same. The shot is at 1:24.

BeamerBob - 20-12-2012 at 11:31 AM

Well, several very experienced world class buggiers have chimed in on facebook and asserted that this turn in question is a Suicide Gybe. The turn where the kite and buggy do a 360 around each other is called a Deadman's Turn.

MDK - 20-12-2012 at 12:00 PM

it seems to me that with a bar this is achievable without twisting the lines but with handles it is not. am I right on this?

awindofchange - 20-12-2012 at 12:39 PM

Bobby, all I know is that video is just awesome. :) Who cares what kind of turn it is....LOL

Ok, seriously though. It appears that what I use to think was a suicide Jibe is actually called a deadmans turn. Funny, I have been doing suicide jibes for years now, always thinking it was just a high speed downturn.....and have been doing Deadman's the last few years and been thinking they were Suicides.... Aw well, it's all fun regardless.

Us U.S. riders may be slow in learning the technology, but we do happen to own the speed record. :)

BeamerBob - 20-12-2012 at 01:46 PM

Thanks Kent, it sure was fun doing the riding to make the footage. It wasn't so bad doing my first attempt at video editing, which I've feared for a long time. Not to imply that I did very good at it, but I at least have one out the door with clips from various clips combined into one. That was a big step in my learning curve.

Mike, I know I always have a single twist in the lines just as if I only did a normal downturn. If I do a walkthru on the maneuver, I can't figure why it has the twist. Handles would be the same way. With a fixed bridle kite you can turn the handles loose and they will unspin the twist, or you can do it with your strop attachment if it will spin, usually by pulling the handles apart.

markite - 20-12-2012 at 02:38 PM

Quote:
I know I always have a single twist in the lines just as if I only did a normal downturn. If I do a walkthru on the maneuver, I can't figure why it has the twist. Handles would be the same way.


Hey Bobby it's because the kite actually does a half turn one way and your bar does a half turn the opposite way through the move. If your kite is flying off on your right side and you have your bar at an angle matching the orientation of the kite then your right side of the bar is high matching the right wingtip which is furthest off the ground. As you move the kite up and over to your left the bar is slowly moving in a clockwise direction ending with your right hand lower while the kites movement relative to the bar is a slow counter clockwise twist 180 degrees. I'll try and draw a simple picture and post it.

BeamerBob - 20-12-2012 at 02:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by markite
Quote:
I know I always have a single twist in the lines just as if I only did a normal downturn. If I do a walkthru on the maneuver, I can't figure why it has the twist. Handles would be the same way.


Hey Bobby it's because the kite actually does a half turn one way and your bar does a half turn the opposite way through the move. If your kite is flying off on your right side and you have your bar at an angle matching the orientation of the kite then your right side of the bar is high matching the right wingtip which is furthest off the ground. As you move the kite up and over to your left the bar is slowly moving in a clockwise direction ending with your right hand lower while the kites movement relative to the bar is a slow counter clockwise twist 180 degrees. I'll try and draw a simple picture and post it.


I'm usually good at visualizing stuff like that but this one gave me some trouble. You nailed the explanation and I agree as well as understand it now. The same would explain the twist using handles as well.

markite - 20-12-2012 at 03:55 PM

sorry for the stick buggy drawing - if i had more time I'd make it beautiful. And keep in mind this kite is not in front of you doing the down turn - the kite is going up to the zenith and coming down on the other side all the time pointing forward so the middle two drawing the kite would be going up overhead looking to the driver like it's sliding sideways, you wouldn't see it out front turning down. The drawing doesn't show it relative to the full 3D wind window. It just shows why the lines twist.

turn and twist.jpg - 126kB

MDK - 20-12-2012 at 05:17 PM

LOL! I was making the maneuvers in my office chair and because our office had an open house today some of the nursing staff walked in on me.....how embarrassing :)

andy666 - 20-12-2012 at 05:44 PM

Wow. This thread is really over thinking things a lot and giving a name to everything. I would of simply called that a down turn and left it at that. It's just one that you do with a bit more speed and loose a bit more ground down wind with. But now that we have giving it a name, suddenly that's one more manoeuvre that I'll say I can do.

markite - 20-12-2012 at 06:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MDK
LOL! I was making the maneuvers in my office chair and because our office had an open house today some of the nursing staff walked in on me.....how embarrassing :)


all depends on what you were using for a bar:wow:

MDK - 20-12-2012 at 06:45 PM

the rated G version was embarrassing enough :)

RonH - 20-12-2012 at 07:14 PM

I think the difference between what BBob is doing and a simple downturn is the speed...

You are faster than wind speed and fly the kite overhead heading with the wind (for a while) the only thing keeping the kite inflated is your speed being greater than the wind speed at the time.

If you try this move without heading into the wind it's an OBE at speed...

BeamerBob - 20-12-2012 at 08:43 PM

Andy the reason I sought to get the correct name of the turn is for communication with others. It makes it alot easier if there is a name for a maneuver, so you don't have to do the MDK kite dance :lol::smilegrin: every time you try to discuss it with someone.

Maybe the speed isn't apparent to some in the video. This turn doesn't work if you are only going the speed of the wind or less. This isn't something that's hard to do, but it is really hard to convince yourself to try it, unlike just trying a simple downturn at 5 mph.

MDK - 20-12-2012 at 09:14 PM

I don't think I am the only one guilty of that dance :)

BeamerBob - 20-12-2012 at 09:28 PM

I've giggled a half dozen times imagining you in the office waving your arms over your head!:lol::lol:

MDK - 20-12-2012 at 09:34 PM

don't forget rolling in the chair too :) actually works really well :) but you look pretty silly if you get caught by someone that has no idea what you are doing :) :lol:

MDK - 20-12-2012 at 09:34 PM

I had to show them a video then I was cool again :)

popeyethewelder - 21-12-2012 at 09:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by markite
sorry for the stick buggy drawing - if i had more time I'd make it beautiful. And keep in mind this kite is not in front of you doing the down turn - the kite is going up to the zenith and coming down on the other side all the time pointing forward so the middle two drawing the kite would be going up overhead looking to the driver like it's sliding sideways, you wouldn't see it out front turning down. The drawing doesn't show it relative to the full 3D wind window. It just shows why the lines twist.


Mark superb illustration, well done