Power Kite Forum - Another idea for a safety system ?

Another idea for a safety system ?

elfasa - 16-1-2013 at 03:43 PM

Hey all !

So i've been thinking again about an idea for a safety system for myself.

I saw a system by PTW, which looks pretty good, and i would like something similar, however i dont fly captaive, just with a roller spreader bar, so this wouldnt work.
See it here:
http://popeyethewelder.com/informational/automatic-quick-rel...

I was thinking about a strop between the brake lines, and from that strop a safety leash (with QR or course) going to my buggy (i guess around where the down tube meets the side-rails, or there abouts).

I was thinking this would let me simply let go, if I needed to, and if i were to have an OBE it would also kill the kite.

I had two concerns,
-Would the weight of the buggy be enough to kill the kite if it was powered up. I assume it would be TBH, the bug is ~20kg, plus the other kit etc i have on it, would probably take it up to ~25kg. And i would obviously test it thoroughly first.

-Is it a very bad idea having the kite attached to the Bug ? I'm pretty sure it would be safe, but something in the back of my mind just said to ask you guys, make sure im not being a dumb ass. Lots of buggiers fly hooked in and belted down, which has a very similar effect, and like i said, i would make sure the leash had a QR, but felt i should ask first.

Before you all go there, i know most of you will / would say just fly with no specific 'saftey system' on FBs... But i wanna see if this would work anyway!!

Thanks,
Tim

popeyethewelder - 16-1-2013 at 11:23 PM

Hi Tim...I am a little confused, are you using a harness, but not fully captive?

Instead of using the system you describe....why not just kite killers?

elfasa - 17-1-2013 at 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by popeyethewelder
Hi Tim...I am a little confused, are you using a harness, but not fully captive?

Instead of using the system you describe....why not just kite killers?

Yeah, that's right. I fly FBs on handles, with a normal roller spreader bar, not a captive system.

Well, i have been using kite killers for a while, but I'm beginning to dislike them..
The main reason is the way they restrict your movement. Particularly when cruising, I cant go one handed, cause as soon as i take my hand away from the handle the brake is applied. I have tried a number of times flying with nothing, but im still not 100% comfortable with that, so would like some kind of a safety system in place that means i can still have full movement / freedom with my hands.

Tim

bigkid - 17-1-2013 at 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by elfasa

Quote:

Originally posted by popeyethewelder
Hi Tim...I am a little confused, are you using a harness, but not fully captive?

Instead of using the system you describe....why not just kite killers?

Yeah, that's right. I fly FBs on handles, with a normal roller spreader bar, not a captive system.
Tim

If not captive, what would you call it? While using handles with a strop connected to a roller spreader bar, a kite can lift you 30 feet into the air and let you crash head first into the ground, before you can unhook. I would call that captive, and so would my ribcage.(haha, it just dawned on me that I had 2 rib cages for a bit of time, with a bunch of pieces hanging close by)

I would guess that, captive, fully captive, semi captive, kinda captive, not really captive, is in all definitions of the word, CAPTIVE.

just trying to understand.:puzzled:

elfasa - 17-1-2013 at 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid

Quote:

Originally posted by elfasa

Yeah, that's right. I fly FBs on handles, with a normal roller spreader bar, not a captive system.
Tim

Okay, i think I'm just using a different terminology / definition for 'captive'. I always thought that a captive system was one where the strop is actually attached into the pulley system, (like PTWs, in the pics of the link in the first post). Maybe its worded different in the UK compared to the USA ? (or maybe I'm just wrong :P ) I would have said that I fly hooked in, not captive.

However, technicalities aside, (whether my current system counts as a captive one or not) one of the points of PTWs quick release system, and the one i tried to describe, and work out if it will work or not, is that in the event of an OBE, by the time my bum is 2 foot out of the buggy the brakes would have been applied, and the kite would be completely de-powered, or at least enough for me to kill it the rest of the way manually. It would then give me a 2-3 foot drop, instead of the 30 foot drop scenario you explained! (Sorry to hear about your accident by the way, sounds rough

)

Tim

bigkid - 17-1-2013 at 10:06 AM

The design change from my setup to what Popeye posted is he has to travel the length of his safety leash before it deploys. On my system I travel 2 inches and it deploys, or what ever I set it at. I also hang onto the handles different than most with my hands down on the bottom of the bars at the brakes. I fly with the brakes more than the power, completely opposite of how you fly static. I have KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s connected to one handle and the other end is connected to the strap from the buggy, the same one that is connected to the QR.
When the kite lifts me up off the seat, the QR lets go of the kite. The kite is completely depowered and the KK and the kite is still connected to the buggy.

With the system you have, roller spreader bar, YOU have to unhook. Not the way I want to go any more. I am working on a QR for that type of hooked in flying but it costs more money than I want to spend at the moment. I'm happy and my wife is also, with the system I have and use. If I am not hooked in with my QR system, I fly with out a harness. My right arm is able to weather the storm but the left side is not going to hang on for more than a second or too. Part of my daily therapy is pullups, armstrong flying is a good replacement.

I wouldn't call it a UK/USA thing at all, you guys are just a bit weird.:frog: :lol:

soliver - 17-1-2013 at 09:03 PM

Hey Jeff, I like the sound of that,... The concern I had with Popeye's rig was the concern over losing the kite,... I am constantly debating over whether or not to try a harness, but all those concerns vs safety systems create an endless debate in my head. It sounds like you have a great solution,... Can you post pics or a diagram cuz I'm not 100% understanding it.

popeyethewelder - 18-1-2013 at 01:02 AM

Hi Tim, first of all, all the credit of the system I made goes to Jeff aka Bigkid, he came up with this idea in the first place after a quite horrific accident.

Believe it of not this system is safer than flying hooked in, because there is no quick release with being hooked in, and often trying to unhook will happen after you have been slammed which is too late.

The photos Jeff on my site are of when I first made the rig and was trying different lengths, the actual length of my tether is roughly half the length you see, and sounds similar to what you are using.

snowspider - 18-1-2013 at 07:53 AM

I have secured my kites to the buggy at times and gotten out to quickly help the kids , only once ,on smooth ice, did I have to chase it down as the depowered kite had enough flapping and flopping to drag the buggy away. I had landed the kite , the scenario of being ejected with the kite still high in the air may present different issues. In a field or on a beach if the winds are not howling the buggy may move down wind some but probably not much , on smooth ice you may be in for a long walk. A regular kite leash with its usual "pull this to let it go" may be a little difficult to get hold of if you're chasing a driverless buggy across the beach or ice (my personal experience). And a snap shackle auto release on the leash I think would defeat the whole purpose of trying to "save the kite." Except around trees , powerlines and misc.other kite eating down wind objects there is very little to worry about in letting go of an open cell foil , they may tangle and wad up but they generaly catch on something pretty quickly and just lay there. Also a pair of free flying handles is a whole lot less dangerous than a free rolling buggy headed in the same direction. Choose wisely my friend. Oh just an after-thought , does any of this stuff work after the pegs or wheels pick up a line or two , sometimes you really just want to get away from the damn thing.
I do love these discussions , kiting is so much fun!

rocfighter - 18-1-2013 at 08:46 AM

Tibi also has a good set up for FB kites. Check out his pictures and chat with him about it. He is a great guy and will explain the whole set up.

elfasa - 18-1-2013 at 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snowspider
A pair of free flying handles is a whole lot less dangerous than a free rolling buggy headed in the same direction. Choose wisely my friend. Oh just an after-thought , does any of this stuff work after the pegs or wheels pick up a line or two , sometimes you really just want to get away from the damn thing.

Damn... Thats very true..
Even if it works how i imagine it would 98% of the time, i wouldnt want a rogue buggy headed for me.. Ill continue to think about it.

RE wanting to get away from the whole lot, thats why id get a leash with a QR on it. But i understand your point.

Quote:

Originally posted by rocfighter
Tibi also has a good set up for FB kites. Check out his pictures and chat with him about it. He is a great guy and will explain the whole set up.

Whos that user sorry ? I dont know the name, and didnt come in searches.

Thanks,
Tim

bigkid - 18-1-2013 at 12:49 PM

snowspider, I agree with the statement and I also "love these discussions".

I have been using my QR for a while now and I was asked a bit ago if it works. Well I had to think for a bit and then answered yes, and then I said no, then I said, well.... "I have been bugging along and was being pulled sideways for a bit and all of a sudden the kite was gone. On another occasion I was doing a bit of dune riding and was enjoying the fact that I could go from 30mph as I came over the top of a dune and down turn the kite as I slide to the bottom of the dune and catapult to opposite direction and reach 30mph in about 2 seconds. After a few very hard turns and one that was with a up turn of the kite, I began my acceleration from a dead stop to 30 mph and the kite was ripped out of my hands and I came to a slow stop as the kite was gone again." Unhook from the QR and chase down the kite, spend a bit of time cleaning up the lines and get it ready to go again I found that if I hooked the strap for the QR to the bottom of the handles as you would a kite stake the kite will pull the buggy from the seat and the pull will be sideways to the bug. The front tire will turn and the bug will be unable to role anywhere as it is pulling against the side of the wheels. After a few trips to regain possession of my kite I connected a KK to the one handle and the other end to the strap leading up to the latch for the QR, problem solved.
So did the QR work? I have not been able to be part of an OBE due to the installation of the QR System. Now I can adjust the strap to allow my bottom to lift up as far as I want to go or I can tighten it up to the point where the kite is gone if I think about it.

The biggest key to my system is the point were the strap connects to the bug, which is directly under my hole. Yes, that's the one. Now you have to think of the fact that if the kite is in front of me, to the right or left, or even behind me the distance never changes when the QR will release the kite. I will not have to travel any distance before it deploys, as I would if I had it connected to the front of the siderails or to the down tube.

Now this will not work with a depower kite as it is with out a small bit of altering, which is rather simple.

With the use of a roller spreader bar, I have a few prototypes that have yet to be destroyed with testing but it looks promising so far.

krumly - 19-1-2013 at 12:44 PM

Jeff -

Could you share a pic of your buggy release set-up? Think I get it, but not 100% sure.

krumly

bigkid - 19-1-2013 at 02:25 PM

Stupid phone, to get a video togethe together

kitebuggybagman - 19-1-2013 at 04:13 PM

was Jims accident a freak wind gust? very difficult to use any system in this scenario. i use a hook, but down size for safety. being able to unhook is paramount to me still being able to keep the kite.

elfasa - 19-1-2013 at 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid
snowspider, I agree with the statement and I also "love these discussions".

+1 !! I like to think were driving the development of the sport, haha.. Perhaps not ! Increasing my knowledge though for sure, and hopefully a couple others

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid
With the use of a roller spreader bar, I have a few prototypes that have yet to be destroyed with testing but it looks promising so far.

What kinds of systems have you been working on with roller spreader bars, or is that a bit of a secret ?

One day I'll figure something out that I'm happy with. (Or I'll get fed up, and move to de-powers :p ) I still think my initial idea is a possibility. It's not perfect or fool proof, but It might do what i want it to do. Especially if i do some testing.. ?

Tim

bigkid - 19-1-2013 at 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kitebuggybagman
was Jims accident a freak wind gust? very difficult to use any system in this scenario. i use a hook, but down size for safety. being able to unhook is paramount to me still being able to keep the kite.

It was no wind gust, just one of those things that has no rhyme or reason for showing up.
Yes it is a secret, funny how things get borrowed. I am waiting for the video to upload as I type. this should be a bit easier to understand.

bigkid - 19-1-2013 at 07:06 PM

This was shot with the JVC ADIXXION camera
here is the video on the QR

http://youtu.be/lpdMYO1mQO0

or

soliver - 20-1-2013 at 02:19 PM

VERY COOL, Jeff,.... Me likely a lot!!!

One day when I can afford a harness, I try all that stuff out,... For now I'll just ride unhooked and use my KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s.

What test strength was the line you used as the "kite killer"? Or is that important?

I also suppose with all this rigging its impossible to launch the kite standing up then sit down in the bug,... Seems like you are bound to launching while sitting.

bigkid - 20-1-2013 at 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by soliver

What test strength was the line you used as the "kite killer"? Or is that important?

I also suppose with all this rigging its impossible to launch the kite standing up then sit down in the bug,... Seems like you are bound to launching while sitting.

I use PKD KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, they have the elastic cords that work much better. The orange string in the video was for demonstration only.

Most of the time I run the strop through the pulley and close the pulley to only hold the strop in place and launch the kite while out of the buggy. I then walk over to the bug and have a seat. I then just reach down and connect the strap though the ring on the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s and connect to the wichard, and ready to go. Takes no more than 2 seconds to connect. Or while sitting in the bug, I will hook in and then launch the kite and I am off, out here on the west coast we call that "hot launching the kite". What ever works for you is the right way to do it.

popeyethewelder - 20-1-2013 at 11:28 PM

Great idea Jeff, I would have placed it on my site, but you have not allowed embedding

bigkid - 21-1-2013 at 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by popeyethewelder
Great idea Jeff, I would have placed it on my site, but you have not allowed embedding

Sorry, I have to be careful who I get into bed with. :lol:

Embed away my friend. :thumbup:

***EDIT*** If you hot launch, be sure the kite is in front of you, just to the side at about the 10:30 or 1:30 position. This gives you the ability to use the side rails to hold you in while still allowing the bug to move forward.
Directly in front, 12:00 position you have a possibility of being superman while being pulled out of the bug.
Any thing to your right or left and behind you will not allow the bug to start moving before you exit the bug or flipping over.

Of course every situation is different and we are at different skill levels. If in doubt, try the hot launch with out a harness until you figure it out.

elfasa - 21-1-2013 at 06:07 PM

Jeff, thanks for the video, I'm very impressed! That's a really great set up.

A little off topic but just out of interest, how much force needs to be applied to cause the QR to work(not much by the looks of it), and how often has the system been set off ?

I obviously understand that you don't wanna show ideas you have RE a roller spreader bar, but i am intrigued. Be sure to post them up when you have them sorted

Maybe i should go 'captive', and then use the saftey system like yours and PTWs.. So many options !!! :o

Tim

bigkid - 21-1-2013 at 07:11 PM

elfasa,
I did a bunch of testing with the 2 different style wichards,

Quick-Release Shackles The Quik-release was way to touchy, too sensitive to use. And besides there is a top and bottom of this style, that will make it NOT open in the right circumstance.

Forged Snap Shackles I use the snap shackle because it needs a bit more pressure to open. (the ring used to pull the pin needs to be welded so it will not open under constant pressure) I found with all of our testing that it only requires about 20lbs to open while under load. The strap and clip/fastener that is connected to the buggy will break at about 80lbs. I use a clip that will break if the buggy and I take a tumble so we can part company before the buggy does any harm. I have got out of the bug a couple of times and the strap/clip broke because I forgot to unhook.

I have had the kite leave unexpectedly about a dozen and a half times. 3 of those times I knew I was in trouble, the other times I had no clue.

With this QR setup you have to keep one thing in mind. It was pointed out to me from another flyer. You will be able to fly bigger, go faster, push the envelope farther, be stupid to a greater degree, because the QR will work with out your brain working. In other words, you will be able to get away with being wild, dangerous, and stupid because the chances of you getting hurt by an OBE is next to nothing.

BeamerBob - 21-1-2013 at 08:36 PM

I like this hands free activation, but the hassle of not being able to spin the handles to unwind the lines after a downturn or suicide gibe is a deal killer for me. If another smart guy like Jeff can take this a step further to let it spin to unwind twisted lines, I'm in.

bigkid - 21-1-2013 at 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
I like this hands free activation, but the hassle of not being able to spin the handles to unwind the lines after a downturn or suicide gibe is a deal killer for me. If another smart guy like Jeff can take this a step further to let it spin to unwind twisted lines, I'm in.

not sure about the smart guy bit, but I do have one that I designed that would do as you said but I gave it up for a shorter setup..
Anyone can incorporate the idea using different pieces, Holt makes a pulley with a turnbuckle/snap shackle base that would work.