Power Kite Forum - Dealing with irresponsible kiters.

Dealing with irresponsible kiters.

Feyd - 30-1-2013 at 04:53 AM

So here's a good question for the PKF braintrust. How do you deal with irresponsible kiters that put kiting and kiting access at risk in your area?

I ask this because a kiter was spotted kiting on private land, a driving range and some other fields, that we as a user group were told specifically to stay out of. They only reason I heard about it is someone assumed that it was it was someone who has ties to HWK and they contacted me to complain.

I went down to take a look, just to be sure there was actually a kiter in the area (we have para gliders and ultra lights around and people lump us all into the same thing) and sure as hell there were tracks all over the driving range. Unfortunately there wasn't much snow, slush actually and the ground wasn't frozen so a few of the kiter's turns made it down to the turf and chewed it up.

I contacted the golf course and first asked them if there was any change in thier kite use policy. They told me absolutely not. They liabilty issues and the potential damage to the greens are the driving factors here and they don't want ANYONE accessing thier land. I apologized for the trespass and told them I would get the word out to stay off that land and told them that everyone we at HWK interact with know the rules concerning that land. They had not gone to look to see the damage and now it's under the snow. Hopefully by spring they will have forgotten about the kiter and the grounds guys will not know what chewed up the range.

We know who it was now. We've had problems with them in the past in regards to killing kite access for us.

So what does one do? We are all ambassadors to the sport, we are always trying to maintain good relations with land owners not just to kite on thier land but also for access to lakes surrounded by private land. But if word gets out that kiters are selfish and destructive that puts our current relationships at risk and closes the door on future relationships.

This kiter's past actions has made him an outcast in the local snowkite community. We've been unable to forget the fact that they have managed to get some of the good local land riding (and nearly some lake access) shut down due to thier actions.

Seriously is there anything worse than someone who gets kiting spots shut down? Is that even forgivable?

I'm at a loss.

bourgeois.jason - 30-1-2013 at 05:50 AM

I'd handle it like the mob did. "Hey buddy, you got a nice quiver of kites there. It would be a shame if they were all hacked up with a razor blade."

Just joking. I'd contact him once more and explain to him that landowners in the area have been complaining and that they are threatening to restrict kiting activity on their lands. I would explain that if he doesn't clean up his act, nobody will be able to use those areas. I would also invite him to kite with me as soon as we are both available, so that he can see a good example of responsible kiting.

I have been amazed at how clueless some kiters are when it comes to the safety of the people around them. They either don't realize that an out of control kite can seriously hurt or kill an innocent bystander or they think they are so good at kiting that it would never happen to them.

Some people can be instructed and learn, and others can be instructed and become indignant.

B-Roc - 30-1-2013 at 05:56 AM

I've said for years and years that the promotion and growth of this sport only benefits those who sell and make kites. Prime land and locations are at such a premium that the actions of one can ruin it for all. You can approach the person but if they don't care they don't care. I had an incident this past summer with some newbie knucklehead repeatedly showing up at my kids soccer practices and trying to learn to fly an 8.5m modified pansh UP wind of my kids. I told him it wasn't a safe place to fly and his mods weren't safe (depower on a homemade bar and homemade trim / mixer system). He was swooping the kite down above kids, hit a few with the kite when he crashed it and tried to jump on every gust. Mostly I just tried to keep talking to him so he would leave the kite on the ground and not fly. Eventually I told the coaches to contact the police or DRC as his actions were very dangerous. Not sure if they did but eventually he stopped coming. If people don't listen they don't and you can't do much about it.

Unsaid

skimtwashington - 30-1-2013 at 06:28 AM

..If you have talked to those responsible in the past? Or has anyone else told him/them of thier action's ramifications?

As one of the 'ambassadors'(And you may be considered in a higher position with your business within the community anyways)..... you're asking what to do..... so it impliess you perhaps wanting to be an abassador of outreach...?

If he/they have been spoken to and told exactly the whole score of what they have done and what has happened and will happen with their violations, but they just do not care, are unethical(ie: are punks with kites)-then this defines the problem more completely. Or are they just clueless?

Is there not enough places to go to kite and they are frustrated and determined to 'force' their recreation anyway? Likely.

Solution?

I like B-Roc's and B.J.'s points..

My suggestion is turn the kiter(s) in/rat them out each time you know they are there trespassing. You will have to notify the landowner who likely has to make the complaint-by law. If they will not comply - what else-other than doing nothing -is there, than to sic the law on them. An 'anonymous' kiter(or self identified if you wish) turning in another kiter can show a responsibility of the whole group itself and give a good overall respect towards the kiters group from landowners, locals and authorities .

RELATED: We have skateboarders in my town that continually chip/damage granite of library scraping across it. The library has stopped calling cops to come and remove them. But as a citizen I may be willing to call cops myself and ask them to come stop it.

B-Roc brings in an interesting side issue related to this: The promotion of the sport of kiting.
That's a whole 'nother thread for debate that I think has been visited before.

Feyd - 30-1-2013 at 06:30 AM

That's an interesting (if not cynical) perspective you have B-Roc. One which I fully understand, share and agree with. Promotion and growth of anything benefits those who sell the products used in a given activity. There are good and not so good people making money off kiting. Some (like myself) are actually trying to make a living at it and others are playing at making a living at it.

That being the case, those of us selling and promoting the sport ARE THE ONES MOST RESPONSIBLE for educating those we bring into the activity and setting the best example we can. The instructors and retailers have a responsibility to not just sell lessons or equipment but to impress upon their customers the importance of maintaining access and making sure the sport is sustainable for everyone involved now, and those to come into the fold and impart the knowledge required to do so.

I've lived here most of my life. I've owned my own home for 12yrs, I've started my own business and have been heavily involved and responsible for the growth of mountain biking and kiting in the region and have sacrificed a lot to do so. Not for profit but to share what I love with like minded individuals and to maintain access to the things I love. I'm frustrated when people move into the area and act like there are no consequences to their actions because if things get bad they can just move on. I've been here for 20 yrs. I've made this my home and I'm here for the long haul and unfortunately that means that I'm hear to deal with whatever mess the make.

I glad to say this individual isn't putting bystanders at risk here to the best of our knowledge. The actions of the guy you described sounds like a worse case scenario and one that would warrant a line cutter.

Some of the locations he's gotten shut down belong to people we know, people we went to school with, but I don't want to push the issue with them and be a nuisance. Maybe in time they will offer access in the future but for now, I'm not pushing the issue.

He's not clueless, he's fully aware of his actions. We've had discussions with him in the past about it and for a long time there haven't been any issues until recently.

RedSky - 30-1-2013 at 06:34 AM

Very selfish actions. This person doesn't seem to care. A driving range of all places. Maybe it's time to grass him up to the local police for trespassing. Let them give him a caution.

Feyd - 30-1-2013 at 06:41 AM

Skimtwashington, my position has always been and always will be that in any activity you participate ALL OF US are ambassadors to the activities we pursue. No matter what it is.

WELDNGOD - 30-1-2013 at 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RedSky
Very selfish actions. This person doesn't seem to care. A driving range of all places. Maybe it's time to grass him up to the local police for trespassing. Let them give him a caution.

Or a P-town Beatdown!:wee:

flyjump - 30-1-2013 at 06:43 AM

"What is this, a goat rodeo?" -Krug

Feyd - 30-1-2013 at 06:46 AM

That's what it came to years ago Red. One of our locations was put at risk because it's a private location for town residents only and he was doing things there, defacing property etc. that put that access at risk. The police actually stopped me because they knew my vehicle and that I was a kiter. We called him out on it in the forums and he actually went to the police to apologize and then cleaned up what he had done at the site. We haven't seen him there since and we have access through the site as guests of a resident. He's layed pretty low since then until this winter.

Damn, Adam had me looking for the FB "like" button again. :smilegrin:

Mainekite - 30-1-2013 at 06:46 AM

I would give the guy up to the people at the golf course. It sounds like you have spoken to the individual on multiple occasions and he still has no regard for rules, etiquette, or safety. If you give him up to the golf course it shows the public that we are serious about policing ourselves and capable of doing so. It also sends the same message to kiters. It is hard to undo the damage caused by a few irresponsible individuals but it is a step in the right direction.

It will be along time before what we do is perceived by the public as anything more than a (although cool) dangerous curiosity. We all need to do our best to combat this stereotype but it can happen. Forty years ago only irresponsible wild kids surfed but look at it today.

WELDNGOD - 30-1-2013 at 06:48 AM

Sounds like it could turn into a goat f&%$$&(N!

Feyd - 30-1-2013 at 07:04 AM

"It will be along time before what we do is perceived by the public as anything more than a (although cool) dangerous curiosity. We all need to do our best to combat this stereotype but it can happen. Forty years ago only irresponsible wild kids surfed but look at it today."

Well said Mainekite!

I've seen that happen here with mountain biking. We started out in the '80s as a rag tag group of riders riding everywhere we wanted because we were a fairly small group. Then as the ridership grew and riding changed we were suddenly on the radar. Trails were getting closed to overuse, user group conflicts developed, bootleg trails started popping up as the older trails were no longer challenging enough for the skill levels or the current technology. Many of those bootlegs were on public and private land which stirred up a hornets nest resulting in sweeping trail closures in the name of liability and eco system issues. Now, many of the illegal trails are legit, people like myself who were on the illegal side of trail building in the beginning have scored jobs building freeride/dh trail systems for mountain bike parks. I work with the Forest service to build and design trails where 12 yrs ago we were in a running battle with them while maintaining bootlegs at the risk of arrest. Most of those bootlegs are now recognized trails and some of the very forest service law enforcement persons we evaded are actually riding these trails with us. But this all comes with compromise, maturity and willingness to accept change.

Snowkiting here now is not much different than mountain biking was 15 yrs ago. And the industry is in many ways the same as well. The difference is that places to ride are pretty obvious and you can't build new kiting terrain. All you can do is maintain what we have and try to gain access to new areas.

Bladerunner - 30-1-2013 at 07:35 AM

Name and shame . Tell the golf course people who he is / where he lives. Post on your local forum to call the Cop's if they see him poaching locations.

Tell him that the whole community is watching him and waiting to get him busted next time. Remind him that this will the second time for the Cops. He seems to 1/2 respect them ?

let it go....

revpaul - 30-1-2013 at 10:40 AM

it is readily apparent that this guy does not care about anyone outside of himself. he knows full well of all ramifications of his actions and accountibility yet he still does what he wishes.
-i (work)drive throughout the rurals every day and see primo spots (un-fenced/no signage) to buggy/landsail daily...i know it's best not to go on this land without permission. i also know i could go on and have fun without permission if i really wanted to and now i am an ass.
your 'friend' is a full knowing ass and doing anything 'illegal' to stop him (beatings or vandalism/theft of his property) from being so just opens you up to serious trouble.
with luck he will (sooner than later) simply cease to exist as a source of frustration to you/yours.
tattling on him or using other 'weak sauce' tactics on him likely only serves to stoke him into be an bigger PIA to those who dislike him.

erratic winds - 30-1-2013 at 11:50 AM

In dealing with locals who doesn't follow the rules, I told them the situation and the ramifications until I was blue in the face.

I gave up entirely. I expect a ban to kites at this specific location will eventually result, and they'll point fingers at everybody else. I would imagine this is acceptable to them, otherwise behavior would change.

Kober - 30-1-2013 at 12:07 PM

Its hard to make right decisions and take action in situations like this ..... If you go easy on guy it may keep happening and result in bans ..... if you go too far ... it may start the "war" that will start involving more and more people, more publicity , more "talking" in local dinner and finally massive action from authorities ..... that may result in major regional ban .....
.... Since you are well know in area its normal that you have been approach with this problem ..... and I know you are willing to resolve that because you care ..... Problem is that approaching individual by you self may result in " Who you think you are to tell me where I can ride and where I can't " response .... that would be also normal for someone that is not aware of his actions .....
.... If you know who he is .... it is probably best to set up " business meeting " lol .... in local coffee shop ? with few more extra kiters and try explain issues that come up and previous problems you encounter in you area .....
... Last thing you need it is to make that individual an enemy that may damage you business , local kiting arena , and turn some people agains you ....

In my opinion keep Police and land owners as far from this as possible ..... approach this guy with positive intentions with few other local kiters ..... and always keep you "enemies " close and within a reach so you can interact with them when needed ......... that may help in future ....

Feyd - 30-1-2013 at 12:11 PM

Well Rev, I gotta say I think you nailed it. It's probably best to make sure that those of us who are responsible, who do follow certain rules of conduct for the greater good and the benefit of the sport's sustainability in the future, continue to conduct ourselves in a manner that is appropriate. I have the opportunity and more so the responsibility to educate my students in the ethics of good kiting practice and will continue to do so.

It would be better to show non-kiters that we are by and large a responsible user group and that he is the anomaly. If we act as the stewards, and show a good face as the user group, we will have a larger positive impact to offset his poor judgment.

This issue has been chewing at me for about a month now. I pretty much had decided that by just letting it go, and focusing on being a positive presence was the best action as opposed to pointing out and publicizing what a screw-up this guy is.

With the rain coming down and the lack of wind and bills needing payment and other just general lame stuff that need to be dealt with I needed to vent a little and maybe get some insight from those in the global kite powered community. :tumble: I think Rev summed it up nicely and gave me the confirmation I needed but I really do appreciate everyone's input. Even those who indulged my more aggressive thoughts about how to deal with this. :evil: hehehe

That's some good advice from Kober as well. If things do escalate something in that vein may be the way to go.

Thanks guys.

pongnut - 30-1-2013 at 01:47 PM

As long as you make it clear to the authorities and land owners who you have discussion with, that this dork is acting on his own behalf, and isn't affiliated with with the general group of legitimate kiters, who follow the "code" of kiting, not sure what else can be expected of you.

shortlineflyer - 30-1-2013 at 02:09 PM

I am always carful when I fly. I only fly near other people with revs and thats only because of the total control you have of the kite. I never power kite near people and I stay off of restricted land. Its always better to follow the rules than risk kiting being banned. personally i think the golfcourse should have a small delta kite with kevlar line up on windy days. that will stop the kiting.

B-Roc - 30-1-2013 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shortlineflyer
personally i think the golfcourse should have a small delta kite with kevlar line up on windy days. that will stop the kiting.

In a heartbeat :o and not a bad idea as it certainly sends a message. :ticking:

I was at a kiting event in the early 90s where a guy was flying a foil and some family let out there $2 batwing kite on 400' of cotton line from behind him. He was zipping the kite through the power zone and scudding about when all of a sudden he hits the cheapo delta line that he never saw coming from behind him. The impact tore the foil in half as it cut the cotton line. The foil guy was pissed. The dad jogged a bit and retrieved his delta when the line snagged on some bushes. I have never forgotten that lesson and always pay attention to the dual and single line fliers at the beach, especially if they are kids letting miles of line out.

Kevlar would do a wicked job on anything it hit.

revpaul - 30-1-2013 at 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc

Quote:

Originally posted by shortlineflyer
personally i think the golfcourse should have a small delta kite with kevlar line up on windy days. that will stop the kiting.

ahhh haaa- actually... a cheap delta on cheap(or kevlar) lines and a....oooops sorry buddy...i just don't know what happened !!!wink wink is a great idea.
at kite festivals this is always a big concern of mine.
this 'guy' is happiest when he succeeds in making all other kiters in his area unhappy and/or look like asses by association.
so the 'accidental' mid air collision seems ideal. no laws broke and if he (he should know) makes a beef out of it then one is 'defending' oneself and not instigating/attaking.
nice.

Kamikuza - 30-1-2013 at 04:59 PM

Firstly, don't apologize on his behalf - you're not responsible for him.
Then hand him over to the golf course owners, etc.