Power Kite Forum - Skis for snowkiting

Skis for snowkiting

mahgnillig - 15-2-2013 at 09:42 PM

I'm curious as to what other people are using for snowkiting...

I had my first snowkite adventure last weekend (learned the basics at a weekend clinic), and then went out to play a bit again today. I picked my alpine powder skis for snowkiting (Atomic Access) since they are a bit softer and more forgiving than my other alpine skis (Volkl Kenja). I also have a pair of backcountry-ish XC skis (Madshus Voss) with metal edges, but I think they would be too lightweight for snowkiting.

So I was wondering what would be the ideal setup that would allow you enough edge control to snowkite, but also give some touring capability in case you run out of wind and have to hoof it back to your starting point. Initially I was thinking maybe some heavy duty XC skis like the Madshus Annum paired with telemark bindings and boots... but I'm not sure how having a free heel would work out while kiting. Then my mind wandered on to AT gear... it seems like Dynafit bindings would be nice in terms of light weight and tourability. But would you want to mount them on regular skis and add skins for touring, or put them on some super wide waxless backcountry skis like the Annums or Rossi BC125?

Anyway, I'm wondering what everyone else uses and why...

Feyd - 16-2-2013 at 07:30 AM

I'm on the run so I can't give much detail but real quick....

You don't need a lot of side cut. The longer the carve radius the better.

Soft snow skis, try to stay above 80mm under foot. Firm snow skis, long straight old school. Anything GS style will do.

Dynafits are too flexi a binding for snowkite use if you are a heavier rider or need to edge aggressively. Marker Dukes or Salomon Guardians are great as they offer AT use for skinning if the wind dies but the stiffness and control of an alpine binding when the winds up. Fritsche Freerides are the next best option as they are fairly stiff. It's a much better AT binding than the Duke or Salomon but it lakes the durability for long term kite use in my experience.

Tele is a riot on kites but has limitations especially on hard surfaces or in gusty conditions.

I would avoid the Voss or any sort of waxless skis as they are designed for much less intense use than they would get on a kite.

Check this video, it shows the types of skis we use here in New England on everything from firm snow, deep snow and even water. =)

http://youtu.be/FThkCVDnT6o

Unlike the kite

skimtwashington - 16-2-2013 at 07:55 AM

...it's much easier to have an all around one-size-does-all ski....somewhat.

But your trying to figure an all around ski for two somewhat diverse types of skiing, if I understand what you wrote- touring and snowkiting.

How far might you 'have to hoof it back" to? You can hoof back even on wide skis(though you will have no poles unless you are carrying collapsed ones on your back to kick and glide with). Just using same ski when NOT snowkiting for touring?

Free heel works perfect... as long as it's modern plastic telemark boots over older leather kind and solid modern binding. That's all I use for slopes, BC and snow kiting. AT gear works also.

Used to be a big difference between Telemark skis and Alpine skis. Not really any more.

To do both Snowkite and tour? Kind of a big gap... but generally a middle of the range all around ski will work well. Moderate flex, moderate shape(turn radius), moderate width.

Also a compromise between hardpack and deep powder. Chris's advice is pretty good

Quote:

Soft snow skis, try to stay above 80mm under foot. Firm snow skis, long straight old school. Anything GS style will do

I use older skis a lot that are a little skinnier than todays average widths (tip is still 108mm, also have another only 100mm)... but they work well for BC/ touring / couliors and okay for snowkiting or downhill. In deeper snow a bit wider is nicer.

From a little research on models you mention:

Pass right over the Voss (way too thin/width and flimsy)..... just a skinny touring ski.

The Access has puh-len-ty of width, and great for powder downhill and snowkiting.... although for general touring, it's a bit too wide unless you don't mind a wider stance and love the increased float thru deep snow as your breaking trail in deep snow or carving down a steep deep slope if you get to one(?). People touring to a ski a BC glade, gully, or face will still take these wide skis. It's not about the tour in this case. it's about the vertical playground the trail takes them to.

The Annums would be suitable compromise for both snowkiting and BC/touring. These are actually not heavy duty and not super wide in respect to snowkiting/downhil....ony in relation to XC skiing. They are light and well suited to do touring, and marginally suited for Snowkite or downhill... but would be okay.

Tough to give an average set of ski dimensions for all kinds of snow. More so to go between simple touring to carving turns with a snow kite. That's a bit wide a gap.

Stay in the middle is best I can say.

Bladerunner - 16-2-2013 at 09:29 AM

When I got geared up I thought I would go backcountry . I bought snow shoes to carry along. I am glad I didn't invest heavily in touring skis or bindings. My reality has been that I get out only about 1/2 dozen times a year . Typically on smallish lakes. I have yet to drag the snowshoes along.

Odds are you will have a greater need and use the gear . Still I suggest seeing if what you have will serve your needs before going out and spending big money.

mahgnillig - 16-2-2013 at 10:52 AM

Thanks for the input! Now I'm thinking maybe it would be a good idea to just get some AT bindings like the Dukes and a set of skins and some collapsible poles for my Atomics... that way I can use them for both resort powder days and snowkiting.

What I'm actually doing and what I'd like to do in my head are of course completely different! Actual: drive up to a lake, walk 50yds down to the shore and kite away. What I'd really like to do is use the kite to cruise the backcountry, but I'm not sure how likely that is given the amount of trees in the Sierras...

You need snow covered tundra!

skimtwashington - 16-2-2013 at 11:09 AM

some treeless or vast openess to snowkite cruise a 'backcountry' ..or.....

Maybe you should think of a combo ideally. A BC ski tour to a Lake or open area that allows you to pull out kite to snowkite. Move on to next or circle back. Climb and ski any slopes/gullys..etc. for downhill fun nearby, or along way. A great mix.

Feyd - 17-2-2013 at 06:47 PM

I'm all about multi-taskers when it comes to gear. I think you're plan for the atomics is a good call.

Windstruck - 16-1-2016 at 06:18 AM

Found this "oldy but goodie" thread today! I'm starting to enter the world of free-heeling and am excited to try it snowkiting as well as in-resort skiing. I tried to go the route of NTN bindings but my feet are too big for the standard. Turns out the binding system can't accept a boot with a shell Mondo larger than 30! I'm a solid 31 - 31.5. I'd read that the NTN setup was the best tele set up for carving hardpack in a resort so I thought it would also be best for bracing against a kite.

Ended up going with a pair of last season's Crispi XP boots: http://www.telemarkdown.com/store/boots/2014-crispi-xpsale/ available at a really good price and some 22-Designs AXL binding from the same shop. I'm going to mount them on a trusty pair of skis that I love, my 184 cm Volkl Mantras. These are from the last year that they were still fully cambered without tip or tail rocker. I snowkited on them yesterday with an alpine boot/binding setup and they worked well!

Stoked to free heel under a kite! This is my first season snowkiting and am still most certainly getting the hang of things. I actually think having free heels will be nice in the deep soft snow for getting around during set up, pack up, getting to and from the site, etc. I just hope I can set a good edge to fight the kite! Fingers and toes crossed. :D

flyguy0101 - 16-1-2016 at 06:52 AM

@windstruck- free heel is the best for skiing but with a kite it is much trickier. If it is a thin base and the tips will stay above a crust then it's a blast if the tips go diving you will spend a lot of time face planting since the kite will pull you forward and lift your heels off the ski. Just an FYI. Here in va so little snow works great went north last yr and deeper snow and slush on the lake left me very wet very quickly:D

Windstruck - 16-1-2016 at 07:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by flyguy0101

@windstruck- free heel is the best for skiing but with a kite it is much trickier. If it is a thin base and the tips will stay above a crust then it's a blast if the tips go diving you will spend a lot of time face planting since the kite will pull you forward and lift your heels off the ski. Just an FYI. Here in va so little snow works great went north last yr and deeper snow and slush on the lake left me very wet very quickly:D

Thanks flyguy! I figured I was going to get some "faceshots", both of the variety I wanted and those I wanted to avoid. I am in the mountains of Utah and we do get a bit more snow I suspect. I was planning on being choosy as to when I would go with an Alpine setup and when I'd try the Free Heel. Just mixing it up!

Feyd - 16-1-2016 at 07:55 AM

Many of us over here actually started kiting on tele before switching to alpine. Not due to any reason beyond the fact that we had all burned out on alpine, AT and wanted something different that we could use for AT still but also made all the areas we had grown bored with, new again. I posted on FB about a month ago that I was going to tele more with the kite this season just to mix things up. Tele turns on a kite are wicked fun. Like any snow kite option, being a competent user of your chosen foot wear is critical to doing it effectively with a kite. Learning on the fly to do both ski and fly is usually a formula for failure. But if you're kite handling is good then the rest will be fine in time.

My Telel set up consists of T-Race boots, Rottefella bindings with 30mm lifts on a GS board. RIPS!

And lets be honest, the boot comfort alone is worth it.:P

skimtwashington - 16-1-2016 at 08:09 AM

Welcome to the world of Tele free-heel, Steve!

At least a couple of us here kite ski with telemark gear. I am completely Tele w/ skiing....and love it.

Yeah...easier to travel on if wind dies and you have to kick and glide way back to start... or you then want to climb and ski down a hill next to the frozen lake, while waiting for wind. Just add poles and skins. Collapsible poles in pack could be used in Kite ski 'wind death' on BIG lake or far traveling runs.

Free-heel doesn't just mean freedom of the heel..but freedom to travel without gravity or wind!

You do not need the NTN system for Telemark.

I've never used the NTN system but my friend uses and loves it. A bit more control ..but he had a little minor binding malfunction and breakage. It is after all, a combination of metal and plastic components. The plastic sometimes will break, crack.

You will have plenty of edging ability and control for 'bracing against a kite' with older but still more common 75mm system w/ cable binding and a solid boot like you got.

I am still satisfied with cable binding and 75 mm Plastic Boot system. They tend to be more durable and problem free. They are lighter bindings too. All metal except the plastic riser plates binding is mounted on.

The 22-design Axle will work VERY well.

Plenty of control and edging ability on all kinds of snow. Don't worry. Good form, pressuring, angulation..... all helps. You have the background ski skills.

Have a blast. El Nino killing NE winter here near Boston and even up north.

Can only dream right now. Last year working my 5.6 Twister in low winds on tele skis..just 6 blocks from my apartment:

damn you El Nino!

Feyd - 16-1-2016 at 10:13 AM

Good lord no. NTN sucks IMO. Nice while they work but as SMW points out, prone to failure. And when they go bad theyre useless. I've used several tele systems and I still like the feel and reliability of the Chili's. Cables are the way to go for my needs. And as SMW points out, less weight, than even the lightest AT set up,carry some skins and collapsible poles and you're good to go if the wind dies.

Feyd - 16-1-2016 at 10:15 AM

I will say it always drove me nuts too see people on the best, priciest tele gear at the ski hill and when you saw the ski you never saw them once,NOT ONCE, drop a knee and turn. Posers.

Feyd - 16-1-2016 at 10:27 AM

FWIW up here in the North country we are getting some action in spite of El Nino. But for sure this is the lamest winter I've seen since I started kiting.

North of here things are shaping up nicely. Was beginning to get a little nutty.
:P

skimtwashington - 16-1-2016 at 10:55 AM

Forgot to mention the COST of NTN bindings. Ridiculous...and for a binding less reliable.

Steve you made the right choice, I think.

BTW.... I've gotten great used tele gear thru Craigslist and eBay. Even got a complete set up- Top quality tele boots, ski and cable bindings for $100!...a quarter of cost of just new NTN bindings!

A couple years ago, I even was- at times- still using a simple 3-pin(no cable) set up kite skiing.(not recommended but doable 'till you rip out or loosen screws from beefy plastic boot.)

I may be kinda smart... but I'm a 'pinhead'!

ssayre - 17-1-2016 at 07:56 AM

off subject, but is there a comfortable waist harness made for bigger riders? Just curious. I've been using a modified diy fall arrest waist harness and has really served me well and is very comfortable but I wouldn't mind having an actual kite waist harness with a hook.

Windstruck - 17-1-2016 at 08:40 AM

Skim and Chris - thanks for all the great info and encouragement - that's awesome! Makes me happy to know that I was "better lucky than good" on going duckbill versus ntn. I've heard that the 22-designs binding have three settings for loading the springs and the suggestion was made for me to set it farthest back (earliest spring load with heel lift) for kiting and that made sense to me.

Chris - I will most certainly drop my knees in the resort! No poser I.

Great call in slinging some skins and collapsible poles in my pack; done.

Windstruck - 17-1-2016 at 08:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

off subject, but is there a comfortable waist harness made for bigger riders? Just curious. I've been using a modified diy fall arrest waist harness and has really served me well and is very comfortable but I wouldn't mind having an actual kite waist harness with a hook.

Thread poach! :moon:

ssayre - 17-1-2016 at 09:18 AM

:P

Just an attempt to change subject to something I understand. You guys are speaking some foreign ski language at this point. :P

skimtwashington - 17-1-2016 at 11:43 AM

Let's see if we can confuse you just a bit more...

Early rise...camber....rocker....torsional stiffness....flex....sintered base...twin tip.....turning radius.:puzzled:

You don't have to drop the Knee if you drop all pretention you're a real Telemarker!:P

Actually....Alpine style or Tele form..... is all okay. It's actually a bit easier to weight/ pressure/edge both ski edges in Alpine form than tele(novices tend not to keep enough weight on the back/trailing ski when dropping a knee).

I recommend practicing all ski styles on Tele gear...including the Mono telemark turn (Try turning both directions w/ same knee dropped):

Not to be confused with the Reverse or 'Switch' telemark turn here:

:o:o:o

:o:o

Suds after thuds - 17-1-2016 at 03:06 PM

two weeks to go until vacation
this thread has me drooling,nchomping at the proverbial bit.

My jukebox hard drive'scalled telemark turns...

Still riding a G3 binding from '01 and crispi boots
Mounted on a K2 Kung fuja pair of TT planks

Wife says I must get in the car and drive to a land of wind and snow

Aye aye captain

abkayak - 17-1-2016 at 03:38 PM

Free the heal and the mind will follow
My pinning was w/ toothpicks and leather and I don't know what your talking about
I grabbed a compleat 1200$ set up a couple years ago for a 100 but still haven't tried it out
Always wanted to try fat skis but those damn mountains are so far and $$$
Really hard to imagine working it proper w/ a kite...but hey, I'm from the lowlands

skimtwashington - 17-1-2016 at 07:42 PM

Three pins leathers and 'toothpicS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- metal edges is what I started in too. Then half plastic- half leather..... then all plastic.

Ski tips were likely only 98mm or less wide, and boots maybe half leather(?) when I went down this:

Pipeline on Mt. Washington-

Windstruck - 18-1-2016 at 05:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington

Three pins leathers and 'toothpicS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- metal edges is what I started in too. Then half plastic- half leather..... then all plastic.

Ski tips were likely only 98mm or less wide, and boots maybe half leather(?) when I went down this:

Pipeline on Mt. Washington-

Definite Man Card stuff right there! Wholly crap. Thanks for the earlier video clips too BTW. Mono turn sounds like good practice. When I carve on Alpine gear my uphill ski trails my downhill one by several inches, much like the opposite turn in the mono technique shown. This should be an interesting adventure!

abkayak - 18-1-2016 at 07:00 AM

thats quite the skinny couloir, i suppose anyone thicker than you gets stuck 3/4 the way down

ssayre - 18-1-2016 at 07:02 PM

lynx promo using tele

Windstruck - 18-1-2016 at 10:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

lynx promo using tele

That is some awesome free heel action!

Feyd - 19-1-2016 at 06:20 AM

Yes!

If ride tele skis and aren't making tele turns, you're an alpine skier on tele gear.

IkonKiteboardingUSA - 4-2-2016 at 08:30 PM

It isn't the ski
It is the rider