Power Kite Forum

Bearing maintenance?

soliver - 21-2-2013 at 08:59 PM

So unfortunately the only place (out if the weather place) I have to store my buggy is the back of my truck, but when I need to carry something other than my bug I have to leave it out in the driveway where it has been rained on a couple of times lately.

I am noticing that the bearings are showing some rust, and one of them actually froze up until I spun the wheel and freed it up,... They are all spinning well enough but I know they are not as good as when I first got the bug

What do you recommend I do to maintain my bearings? Or at least restore them somewhat and give them a little more life?

Or do I need to go ahead and order new ones?

flyjump - 21-2-2013 at 09:06 PM

Pop off bearing shields soak in gas for a few minutes, brush clean with a tooth brush, re oil and then put bearing shields back on. Thats what i have always done and my bearings last much longer than before. I do this after trips to the beach or if they are exposed to mud and water

cheezycheese - 21-2-2013 at 09:07 PM

If you need spares - VXB.com
I got a box of ten for about $12 delivered. The bearing number is stamped on the side.

flyjump - 21-2-2013 at 09:07 PM

Thats with my atb anyways

soliver - 21-2-2013 at 09:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flyjump
Pop off bearing shields soak in gas for a few minutes, brush clean with a tooth brush, re oil and then put bearing shields back on. Thats what i have always done and my bearings last much longer than before. I do this after trips to the beach or if they are exposed to mud and water


Thanks,...
Meaning gasoline?
What's re oil?
Do I need to clean off (sand off) the rust?
The bearing shield is the black plastic part?

soliver - 21-2-2013 at 09:18 PM

Thanks cheezy

John Holgate - 21-2-2013 at 09:59 PM

When I went into the local bearing shop to replace the bearings that came with my Sysmic alloy rims the bloke looked at 'em and said 'these are pretty cheap bearings...not precision....' turns out that I could have payed about $4 each for them. They had lasted a little over 12 months - I wipe the outsides with a little WD40 - but I spray it on the cloth first, then wipe so I don't get any inside the bearings (which would begin to dissolve the grease). That goes a long way to stop them from going rusty. Teflon would prob be better...

I replaced them with precision bearings designed for high speed use in electronic tools and such...they were about $7.50 each and they're much, much smoother and freer turning and have gone 12 months with no sign of deterioration. Personally, I wouldn't bother re packing cheap bearings, but better ones may be worth the effort.

Give 'em a wipe at the end of the session to get any salt or water off and perhaps a little something to keep the rust at bay.....

Scudley - 22-2-2013 at 12:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cheezycheese
If you need spares - VXB.com
I got a box of ten for about $12 delivered. The bearing number is stamped on the side.


Seconded.
You can get 8 changes with cheap bearings for a few dollars more than John paid for one change with a name brand.
S

soliver - 22-2-2013 at 07:15 AM

Thanks for the info on replacing them, but I'm pretty sure they're not completely toasted yet, cuz I think they still have life in them.

How should I breathe life back into them? Do like Flyjump said above? Other methods?

Scudley - 22-2-2013 at 10:29 AM

At six bucks to replace the all 6 wheel bearings, it is not worth time to repack them. Is your time not worth more than six bucks an hour?
These are probably the exact same bearing your buggy came with.
Not worth putting expensive bearings as the shaft we are putting the bearings on are not spec'ed to the size required by the bearing. A bearing on the proper sized shaft requires a press fit, not drop through, for proper installation. Improper installation is the leading cause of premature bearing failures.

Good luck with it

S

BeamerBob - 22-2-2013 at 10:39 AM

If there has been or is any corrosion or pitting in your bearings, there is no amount of grease or maintenance that will cure them. They will now destroy themselves as the pits in bearings and races will start to chew away at the remaining smooth metal making more pits that......... Well you can see how the end is near.

awindofchange - 22-2-2013 at 10:43 AM

One thing to keep in mind on bearings, they are very inexpensive to replace and what happens sometimes is that people will run the bearings well past their useful life span. Once a bearing is shot, it can cause some expensive damage. On the standard PL ABS plastic wheels, a warn bearing will generate a lot of heat which can cause premature wear on the wheel. What happens is that the bearing shoulder on the wheel will get soft and widen out making the bearing super loose in the wheel which can start to rattle around. Worse is that the bearing could seize solid and then the entire bearing will start to turn inside the wheel, melting the wheel into a blob; basically destroying the wheel. Aluminum wheels are a bit stronger in this instance but a seized bearing will cause so much heat that you will begin to spin axle bolts off.

Replacing wheels and axle bolts are much more expensive than the $5 bearing you are trying to save with repacking. Once you pull the seals off of the bearings, they never seal up nearly as good and what happens is that the grease ends up leaking out or dirt ends up getting in - all of which will cause excessive wear. Another problem is that once the bearing has begun to wear, the tolerances are not what they are designed to be and no matter how much you pack it full, it will not work as designed and eventually will fail.

Inexpensive bearings will usually last from 8 months to a year in the harshest conditions. In normal conditions you can usually get 1-2 years (or more) from a set of bearings. When you look at the overall cost compared to the length of time you get out of them, replacing them is a no brainer.

Just my opinion.....its worth exactly what you paid for it. :)

soliver - 22-2-2013 at 11:06 PM

Ok,... Looks like I might a few more rides out of em then just replace em then,... I didn't necessarily consider the whole cost/benefit issue,... Plus I didn't realize bearings were so cheap!!!

Thanks guys.

Is there anything I can do (that's worth the time) to help them last longer (aside from not leaving my buggy out in the rain :smilegrin: )....

rtz - 22-2-2013 at 11:51 PM

"Sealed" bearings is a bit of a misnomer and misleading as you will see when you pull off one of the 'seals' on your old bearings. They are absolutely not water proof or water tight. I'd wrap my buggy in a tarp if I had to leave it out in the rain. Bearings are great as long as they are new or still nearly new. I suspect the factory grease is not the best in the world nor ideal and the dusty conditions most of us ride in takes it's toll on the bearings over time.

I'd like some bearings with a teflon type grease like what's used in the bicycle world and tighter fitting 'seals'.

carltb - 23-2-2013 at 02:15 PM

yep. get a tarp!!!! lol

djinnzfree - 2-3-2013 at 06:21 AM

I replace the two for front wheel yesterday. The original one are made in China. I replace them by SKF made in Italy. I bought 2 X 6201-2rsh ( both sided shielded). $10.55 each in CAD, 18 steel balls per bearing. I'll put them on bigwheel rim.





note: if you have to clean your bearing... put gear grease is the best grease choice.... choose Pro-Lab #OG700 very thick and sticky.

BEC - 2-3-2013 at 06:47 AM

I just picked up an entire set (x6) from Kent at A wind of Change....30.00 for all...Divide that price by the 6 years I've been running them and..... .....well worth that little bit of investment. The name brand was the one cheezy had suggested VXB. Keep in mind WD40 (FYI WD stands for water displacement and the 40 was the oz it was sold in...little trivia for you) it's a great product, but it will break down grease...good for freeing up moving parts and cleaning but use a different product for lubrication. (OK no funny quotes on that one).

When you get a little extra $$ look into Van sewing you a custom cover (with elastic so it acts like a boat cover) that will go over the buggy when it's not in use. I left my buggy outside for a summer once thinking its stainless steel what could possibly happen....well the sun and rain does do its damage...seat faded, bearings got rusty looking etc.

I got a nice gift from Flyguy0101...Etrex...as soon as I figure out how to run it I will be posting speeds with you.

BEC - 2-3-2013 at 06:53 AM

Something like this....maybe even little ones for the wheels..



Quote:
Originally posted by soliver
So unfortunately the only place (out if the weather place) I have to store my buggy is the back of my truck, but when I need to carry something other than my bug I have to leave it out in the driveway where it has been rained on a couple of times lately.

th-5.jpeg - 7kB

BEC - 2-3-2013 at 06:54 AM

I'm on a roll ! You can't stop me. haha :smilegrin:

Scudley - 2-3-2013 at 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BEC
I just picked up an entire set (x6) from Kent at A wind of Change....30.00 for all..


Not meaning to dis Kent, but you could have picked up close to 30 bearings from VBX for the price of one change from Kent. I just find a 400% mark up a little steep.
S

BeamerBob - 2-3-2013 at 01:54 PM

Kent's bearings were probably from Peter Lynn and cost him more than $1 each. Every buyer decides what they want to buy and what they are willing to pay. Every dealer gets to decide what they want to sell. The market economy balances it all out.

Peace of mind that you are buying the right item is worth something too. Supporting your dealer means something as well. All rolled into that market economy.

awindofchange - 2-3-2013 at 01:59 PM

Bobby, these were from XVB, the ones we order in are the higher quality ones than the ultra cheap ones. They tend to last a bit longer and stay sealed up better. Not to mention that we do have to include shipping costs to get them in, plus packaging and then shipping them back out.

No worries though, we're just glad to be here, to have the items in stock and to help and support the industry. :)

Scudley - 2-3-2013 at 10:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by awindofchange
They tend to last a bit longer and stay sealed up better.


Last a bit longer, but cost 500% more.
S

BeamerBob - 2-3-2013 at 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Scudley
Quote:
Originally posted by awindofchange
They tend to last a bit longer and stay sealed up better.


Last a bit longer, but cost 500% more.
S


So scudley why aren't there any pansh kites in your quiver? It's all about price, right?

Scudley - 3-3-2013 at 08:11 AM

No Bob, it is not about the price, but value. Do you know what an economist would call paying 500% more for something that is only marginally better? It is very close to what they would say about about buying a product that costs half as much but does not do what you require of it, At some point even the most ardent Pansh fan will come to the conclusion it really does not matter how low the cost is if you have to make $500 bucks in mods or time to get it off the ground. So to sum up, the reason I don't fly Pansh or buy bearings from Kent is that I don't feel I would be getting value for my dollar.
Bob, explain your rational for paying five times more for something that lasts even twice as long when the installation cost is minimal, cause it is completely beyond me. Please, don't use supporting my local shop, Kent's shop is 2400 km away from me, so it is not really local.
TIA
S

BeamerBob - 3-3-2013 at 08:31 AM

It's hard to explain if you ignore or don't grasp what I've already said. Buying something for the first time can be daunting in that you aren't sure you are getting the right thing. You have to know exactly what you need when ordering from one of those bearing sites. Buying the bearings from Kent gave the purchaser the peace of mind he was buying a high quality product that was right for his application and all that adds up to value for that buyer.

Some people feel its worth it to spend extra for value they perceive. Value is a personal thing for the buyer. You've made your point that some quality bearing is available for a lower price. It's also clear you would prefer the less expensive bearings because they are the best value for you. It seems this is an emotional issue for you on some level so I'm not sure we can come to an understanding on this.

BEC - 3-3-2013 at 10:35 AM

FIGHT NICE BOYS....:smug:

soliver - 3-3-2013 at 11:49 AM

Hmmmm,... It looks like a can of worms has been opened,...

I see the value in both arguments, but,...I have to admit there is a great value in the comfort of knowing I'm getting the right thing and avoiding a GREAT deal of hassle. As well there is great value in relying on someone else's expertise. Almost equivalent to paying for a licensed electrician as opposed to a day laborer who claims they know what they're doing. That's the value of knowing your house won't burn down.

Then again there is a great value in a FORUM like this where we can rely on the expertise of the experience without cost. Therefore in an attempt to quash the argument, I have to ask let me rely on you all's expertise,... If I go onto VXB.com what bearings should I get for my PL comp XR with all 20 mm bolts or adapters?

Thus, I can feel secure in that I've bought the right thing, while still saving the dough, therefore by saving the dough I can support the gear sales reps by having more to invest in kites harnesses, buggy stuff etc.

This is one of those instances where it is truly reliant on personal preference so it is really not worth arguing over. It's equivalent to arguing that your way of winding kite lines is the best way,... Each way has some sort of value inherent within its method.

John Holgate - 3-3-2013 at 01:18 PM

Whether you pay a couple bucks or ten bucks each for your bearings, it's pretty much the only running cost for the bug. (unless you're chewing up tyres on the salt flats). And for me, paying $50 odd bucks for bearings every couple of years or 3000km is nothing considering how much enjoyment I get out of it. I probably spend that much on replacing batteries in my gps!

rtz - 3-3-2013 at 08:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soliver
If I go onto VXB.com what bearings should I get for my PL comp XR with all 20 mm bolts or adapters?


Look really close at your bearings. On the rim of the outer race and the bearing shield. See if it says 6204RS or some other number on it.




Read up on what 6204 or 6304 and RS means to take the voodoo and mystery out of it:

http://gizmology.net/bearings.htm

Scudley - 4-3-2013 at 07:38 AM

Bob, if supporting your dealer is important, why is it not important support Peter Lynn. You can order Original Peter Lynn OEM bearings, which look very much identical to VBX dollar bearings, from you PL dealer. 20x47x14 ones are only $14 each MSRP. I support my dealer as long as he is not trying to slip me a greasy one, and I am not talking bearings.

S

soliver - 4-3-2013 at 10:52 AM

Scuds,
just think its worth pointing out the existence of 2 relatively different but somehow similar concepts...

Intrinsic value vs extrinsic value:

Definition of "intrinsic" via dictionary.com:

adjective
1.
belonging to a thing by its very nature: the intrinsic value of a gold ring.
2.
Anatomy . (of certain muscles, nerves, etc.) belonging to or lying within a given part.

Definition of "extrinsic" via dictionary.com:

adjective
1.
not essential or inherent; not a basic part or quality; extraneous: facts that are extrinsic to the matter under discussion.
2.
being outside a thing; outward or external; operating or coming from without: extrinsic influences.

In application of these two ideas to value; "intrinsic value" is the actual literal price of something; "extrinsic value" would then be the item's value outside of and separate from what it costs.

In application to the discussion at hand,... INTRINSICALLY speaking you are completely right,... it seems ridiculous to pay a 500% mark up on something.

However, EXTRINSICALLY speaking, others would say that it completely worth paying $30 for something you could elsewhere buy for $10, given the complete avoidance and hassle of buying the WRONG thing and adding the security of mind of paying the mark-up for something on the basis of relying on the seller's expertise as well as the quality of knowing you have bought the right thing.

It is 100% an issue of perception,... I would honestly prefer that you all point me in the right direction and pay less, mostly cuz I'm a cheapo.

So how do you wind your kite lines and why is it better than how I wind mine? :lol:

No offense to you Scudley, I just don't think this is an argument worth having, because the "right" answer is so case specific.

Spencer

ChrisH - 4-3-2013 at 11:58 AM

Napa also sells bearings and you don't have to pay for shipping. I'm sure every other auto parts does as well. They seem to be just as good as most others.

Also, refer back to rtz's post. He is talking facts there, no opinion involved.

bigkid - 4-3-2013 at 01:35 PM

Bearings are one of those personal preference things that are up there with length of lines and bar or handles.
Call around and find a shop that sells bearings and ask some questions. "Which one will be the best if it sits out in the weather exposed to the elements?" Or what ever else you want to know.

The big problem is that water does not act like salt does, and salt doe not act as dry lake bed dust does. 3 items with 3 different solutions.
I know guys that race out at Ivanpah and they remove the outer shield of the bearing, remove all the grease and use very fine machine oil as the only lubricant with a cloth dust shield. They clean out the bearings after 20-30 miles or so and lube them up for the next 20-30 miles.
I buy the cheep ones and stay out of the surf as much as possible and replace then as the tire grumbles a bit when I give it a spin.
The more expensive the bearing the closer the tolerance, all of them will wear out from lack of maintenance. The determining factor is how much do you abuse them.

A 4 dollar tarp from Harbor Freight and a couple of bungee cords is much cheaper than replacing bearings and the seat because the UV will eat up a seat just as fast as the rain with the bearings. Cover the buggy with a cheap tarp will make life a bit easier, plus those that want to barrow it wont know it is there if its covered.

Buy the cheap ones and see how long they last, then buy the gold plated and see how they last. For the record, SS bearings are made of softer material and will deteriorate faster than the less expensive steal bearings.

soliver - 5-3-2013 at 09:35 PM

Just for the record,... I have a tarp and have covered the buggy up with it in the past,... Truth be told, I didn't think it made much difference, and I was mostly being lazy,... I know now that that was a mistake.

Now I have the buggy on the front porch out of the rain.

Thanks for the help gang, guess its time to order some bearings ...hehehe

bigkid - 5-3-2013 at 10:19 PM

I found a deal on Amazon and ebay with the 12 mm bearings. 10 for 8 bucks, they are basicly scateboard bearings or acex 9 or what ever there called. They are the cheaper ones but for the price, its a no brainer.

soliver - 6-3-2013 at 05:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bigkid
I found a deal on Amazon and ebay with the 12 mm bearings. 10 for 8 bucks, they are basicly scateboard bearings or acex 9 or what ever there called. They are the cheaper ones but for the price, its a no brainer.


Sounds great, do you know if they have 20mm bearings?

All the stuff on my XR uses 20mm bearings with adapters to fit the 12mm bolts or they just have 20mm bolts.

Give a linky and I'll check it out

bigkid - 6-3-2013 at 11:07 PM

send me the numbers on the bearings that you have. I have a book with bearing types, uses, and applications in it with a ton of other info along with a cross reference section.

I found also that the Sysmic wheels that have the SS bearings are going to cost about 40 bucks a bearing to replace. Thats the cost of the wheel. They use SS bearings because the aluminum is more tolerant of the SS than the mild steal bearings. The mild steal will corrode the aluminum and the electrolysis that occurs is prone to enlarge the hole for the bearing, thus making the replacement not fit tight and will at some point spin in the wheel and not work creating a lot of costly damage.

Makes plastic wheels a bit better, but not as much bling.

Granted the problem with aluminum and mild steal will take some time to cause a problem, I would think that you could enjoy the bling wheels for a long time before they go kaput.

acampbell - 7-3-2013 at 06:08 AM

late to the thread again but I will make a few quick points.

Our application in buggies (for bearings) is not demanding by any stretch. Salt water and sand will wear them long before normal mechanical wear. I ride mine until the noise is so loud I can't stand it, and that takes years. No bother to re-pack, just throw them away. An occasional shot of teflon spray on the outside of the wheel hub will help prolong life a bit.

My buggies are stored outside, uncovered in the hot Georgia sun and violent thunderstorms. They are not delicate instruments.

The bearings I sell at Peter Lynn retail prices are the cheapest I can find from the local industrial bearing supplier and this is with the blessing of the PL people. I fully disclose that my bearings are often locally sourced but are of the same grade (read cheap Chinese) that PL supplies. I also tell customers when they ask that they can get them cheaper on Amazon or other bulk sources, but many prefer to pay me more for making the right choice for them and delivering to their mailbox with but a few mouse-clicks.

There is no place for premium SKF bearings in our application, IMO. I have purchased them (by accident) and have detected no benefit.

acampbell - 7-3-2013 at 06:18 AM

late to the thread again but I will make a few quick points.

Our application in buggies (for bearings) is not demanding by any stretch. Salt water and sand will wear them long before normal mechanical wear. I ride mine until the noise is so loud I can't stand it, and that takes years. No bother to re-pack, just throw them away. An occasional shot of teflon spray on the outside of the wheel hub will help prolong life a bit.

My buggies are stored outside, uncovered in the hot Georgia sun and in violent thunderstorms. They are not delicate instruments.

The bearings I sell at Peter Lynn retail prices are the cheapest I can find from the local industrial bearing supplier and this is with the blessing of the PL people. I fully disclose that my bearings are often locally sourced but are of the same grade (read cheap Chinese) that PL supplies. I also tell customers when they ask that they can get them cheaper on Amazon or other bulk sources, but many prefer to pay me more for making the right choice for them and delivering to their mailbox with but a few mouse-clicks.

There is no place for premium SKF bearings in our application, IMO. I have purchased them (by accident) and have detected no benefit.

bigkid - 7-3-2013 at 09:30 AM

I agree with Angus. Unless you are running at 150mph the bearings are not going to effect any performance of the ride. On the other hand, your tires, if you have looked, are not rated for highway use. In other words anything over the speed of walking is passed the speed rating of most of the barrow/bigfoot tires. The only tires with any speed rating are the MC tires on the larger wheels, unless you buy them with a speed rating.

"I ride mine until the noise is so loud I can't stand it, and that takes years." Remember Angus is a dealer, so he can replace them a bit easier.:frog: I do somewhat the same, but I have a ton of wheels/tires/bearings,bolts,buggies, to replace the ones that need help.:lol: Heck if I have a flat tire, I just put on a complete wheel/tire and throw the flat one in the truck.

Scudley - 7-3-2013 at 11:25 AM

You certainly don't need high speed bearings. Industry spec sheet for 6000 series bearings says they are good up to 36000 rpm, so they should be acceptable at 20000 rpm. At 20000 rpm a 16" wheel is travelling over the ground at more than 900 mph. I think that is faster than most us buggy.
S

BEC - 7-3-2013 at 11:32 AM

Quote:
Speak for yourself.....:thumbup:


At 20000 rpm a 16" wheel is travelling over the ground at more than 900 mph. I think that is faster than most us buggy.
S

bigkid - 7-3-2013 at 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Scudley
You certainly don't need high speed bearings. Industry spec sheet for 6000 series bearings says they are good up to 36000 rpm, so they should be acceptable at 20000 rpm. At 20000 rpm a 16" wheel is travelling over the ground at more than 900 mph. I think that is faster than most us buggy.
S

got to be close to 875 mph faster than I have seen you buggy,:P:lol:

When you see the picture of a guys fish he caught, he is holding it out at arms length so it looks bigger than it really is. You wouldn't be thinking you are faster than the rest of us old guys are you? :lol:

Scudley - 7-3-2013 at 10:25 PM

It wasn't me who thought he needed high speed bearings.
S

P.S. Jeff, you are right: you have never seen me go faster than 25 mph in buggy, but then when we have been together there was never enough wind to even get your kite in the air. :yawn:

RonH - 8-3-2013 at 08:55 PM

I have some 0 rpm bearings available... Fresh off my buggy :bigok: