So, my first snowkite season is over now, and I'm really happy about how it turned out. I had fun, didn't hurt myself,had a few "holy s**t" moments and got badly addicted.
It will be a (way too) long time until next winter, but I propably get to snowkite on a vacation in the summer.
My only problem was, that my 10m Access was great on the few higher-wind days (15-22knt) we had, but got boring on days with less wind. It was very
pleasant to learn to jump with the kite and I got some rather good jumps after a short time of practice.
Now I'll either look for a light wind kite or sell the Access and get 2 kites.
What would it take to get 75kg riding powered in 10knt?
Maybe a foil for light wind and some cheap ARC for high winds?
M7,frenzy,ikon,.....there are SO many options! :puzzled:BeamerBob - 30-4-2013 at 08:31 AM
The big 14m Montana would be the ticket. It makes loads of power at 10 knots. It would be more lifty than your Access which I understand is designed
as a low lift kite. A 14m would make a good combo with a 9-10m depower.B-Roc - 30-4-2013 at 09:11 AM
Agreed, my 14m Eskimo fits very well above my 10m Eskimo (both higher A/R than your Access) and they are a great combo. At 145#s I landboard with my
10m from around 8 - 20 mph winds and with the 14m I ride from 6-14. Great size combo.lives2fly - 30-4-2013 at 09:24 AM
Yup i would go with that advice, 13m frenzy, 14m montana, 12m Summit. or a big Arc if you like floaty jumps.
10knots will get the Access moving but there is no way you are jumping. Maybe even an 11m Frenzy would do if its just the jumps you are missing.
UnknownAX - 30-4-2013 at 10:36 AM
A 14m Montana? :o Isn't the Montana considered as a very lifty (lofty?? ) kite? On the other hand, It'd propably be a great kite for the winds where my Access doesn't quite cut it...
Do you think I can handle a lifty 14m as my second kite? (In lowish winds, ofcourse)BeamerBob - 30-4-2013 at 10:43 AM
We buggy with them and the lift is there if you tap into it but not without input. It was never an issue in appropriate winds and don't send it back
at speed if you don't want to go up. The Montanas are quite stable.B-Roc - 30-4-2013 at 11:53 AM
If you are thinking low wind then you need to be thinking high aspect (like the Montana). Low aspect kites like the access just don't cut upwind
nearly as well as high A/R kites. High A/R kites make jumping easier and will catch you out quicker in their upper limits but as BB said, if you
don't fly them aggressively and don't redirect them hastily, they won't just loft you when flown in their intended window.
Think high A/R kites for low winds and low A/R kites for high winds if you want ride performance without (many) surprises.
UnknownAX - 30-4-2013 at 12:14 PM
Quote:
if you don't fly them aggressively and don't redirect them hastily
Thats all I'm doing with the access if the wind isn't very strong.:D
But in 20knt, I definitely won't fly anything more aggressive than the Access...
I think I start looking for a 13/14m LW-kite like the Montana, Frenzy or Eskimo, then.
Proletariat - 30-4-2013 at 09:21 PM
Bah... buy a giant, cheap PL Guerilla or other old arc. I was out on Lake Dillon at <5mph winds and was the only one still skiing, and that was
with an 18m. The Guerilla *will* lift you if you wanna get all fancy, but a) it'll set you down nicely and b) it's not very frenetic like the higher
AR kites, so I've found it really hard to "accidentally" jump. You really have to plan to *send* it.
These guys are amazing veterans and know their sh*t, so definitely listen to them but I gotta say that I am a full-on arc convert where low wind,
inland flying is concerned. There is a single (incredibly important) caveat, though. In anything less than 5mph, don't fly your arc unless you make
a fancy inflatatabulator-ma-tron out of a spare (>9v) battery and a computer fan. It takes about 5 minutes if you have one and about 2 hours of
running, untangling, cursing and spitting, if you don't.
For reference, my 18m Guerilla 1 is now selling (RTF) for about $200-$250. It can fly in just slightly less wind than my 13m Waroo, so I put it at
about 14m (wind-catchy area). You have to inflate it, but once it's inflated it's good. No bridle to worry about, it's water relaunchable and it
munches inland, weirdly omnidirectional gusts much better than either a foil or an SLE. Most of the time, it just sort of ... flexes... to absorb
gusts and it's nice that you're not required to absorb that with your body.
All that being said, I'd love to own a frenzy, access or montana some day. They're great kites... but about 2x-3x more expensive than old cheap arcs
and they're less forgiving about erratic winds (just ask "erratic winds"), so I feel really bad when I crash them. I feel nothing when I crash my
arcs... maybe a little shame. Anyway, I thought perhaps a dissenting opinion might help. However, you should know that I live in CO where the wind
is downright malicious in all seasons EXCEPT winter, so definitely consider the source .stetson05 - 30-4-2013 at 11:01 PM
The only thing I would add is the possibility of a closed cell foil. Once inflated they keep their shape better in low winds. An open cell will
deflate faster and lose its shape.
Plus, If you ever think you might ride nonfrozen water it could be an option.
At your weight 10knots will see you well powered on any of the 14m'ish foils or 18m'ish arcs. The liftier kites are great for low end grunt but go
easy at their top end. The one thing I found when mixing foils and arcs though is the timing felt different. What worked for my foils to eek out
extra ounces of power didn't work for my arcs and vice versa. Just turned into a preference thing for me.csa_deadon - 1-5-2013 at 04:15 AM
Look at the UL line of Frenzy's
My 11m will have me riding the beach in 5mph.UnknownAX - 10-8-2013 at 03:01 AM
What about a 19m Charger 2011? What windrange should I expect? How lifty would it be?
I'm also concerned about the durability of an arc and the coating of it's fabric. Any bad experiences?
And last but not least: How much is one (in good shape) worth?
Sorry about all the questions, but I really can't just wait for the deal to be gone! Bladerunner - 10-8-2013 at 08:10 AM
The fabric and durability on arcs seems about as good as most kites I've owned accept Flysurfer .
My low wind , go to kite used to be the 13m Psycho III like the one in the for sale section. It lacked in sub 5kts wind but just about 10kts it was a
fantastic kite. Lots of float ! One of the few kites I have sellers regret from. When I think low wind the first kites I think of are Flysurfer.
Speed 1.5 and newer in particular. Flysurfer is a step above IMHO. It is reflected in the original price. Used Flysurfers however sell pretty cheap.
They are the best deal on the used market at the moment IMHO.
At the moment I am using my 18m Phantom as my low wind engine. I am however lacking and saving for a newer 19m Speed.
Not everybody takes to the Chargers. The are fast and need to be tuned correctly. The fast nature works in favor of the 19m but has made the Charger a
hard kite to resell . If you found one at a screamin' good deal I would go to it waaaay before I would ever look at old arcs like Guerilla.
( We have a local rider who used a 13m Pulse as a one kite quiver for about 5 years and he didn't miss out much . )
Proletariat - 10-8-2013 at 08:27 AM
I agree with Blade. The reason I mentioned an old Guerilla is that they're cheap as hell (like < $300) and you could try it out for yourself for
almost nothing. I have a 19 venom also, but its barely flies until about 10mph, while my 18m G1 will fly in an ant fart. So bigger doesn't
necessarily always mean better low wind engine.
From what I've heard, the Phantom 2 is a better low wind engine than the charger but that's only because of what Blade was saying about it being fast.
I have a 15m phantom 1 that does pretty darn well in 5-15 mph and we have a lot less air up here than most of the US. I post a lot of my arc
shenanigans on my YouTube channel, so you can see some really low wind arc action.
Also, if you can afford it, the quintessential end-all-be-all of low wind engines is the flysurfer speed3 21m. I recently started bought 2 flysurfers
because of their quick setup time, and they're turning out to be absolutely amazing kites.
A while ago I posted a thread asking which is the best depower of all time and the ones that always came up were the Phantom, the Montana, the Frenzy
and the Speed3 / Psycho. Proletariat - 10-8-2013 at 08:35 AM
Oops. I forgot that you were originally asking about only havingn a 2 kite quiver. The 21m speed3 would leave a giant gap in the middle. Better to
go with the speed3 15m deluxe because its made of lighter material. Of course, brand new they cost about $2000-$3000 and used they're still around
$1000. Frenzy's are a bit less expensive, and Montana's even more so, with used arcs costing the least (or at least that's the trend I've been
seeing.)
Hope that helps! I'm waiting for my Flysurfer 12m Pulse2 to arrive, so my "2-kite quiver" will actually be an 8m, a 12m and a 15m (once I sell a few
kites.)UnknownAX - 10-8-2013 at 12:49 PM
I've done a little more research, and it seems like ARCs aren't really ideal for my needs. Not to mention that the Charger would've needed some
serious work on the price.
These are my options now:
1. Buy a13/14/15m frenzy/montana/speed (used)
2.Sell my access and buy a 11/12m frenzy/ikon rafale
3.Sell my access and buy a 12-14m foil and a extremely cheap little tube/arc to go with it.(doesn't really make any sense)
I've got a hard time finding any "cheap" foil, but maybe I'll catch a 2012 one when the 2013 ones are released. Anyway, I'll keep looking for one and
thanks a lot for your help! erratic winds - 10-8-2013 at 01:06 PM
BI feel nothing when I crash my arcs... maybe a little shame. .
LOL would love an update on this opinion after you killed your venom!
UNKNOWNAX- ok, I pretty much fly a two-kite quiver. I fly a 9m/15m combo, both slingshot REV's. On land, that 15m has me having a damn good time in
7-9mph wind, and if I wanted better low-end performance It'd have to be spending 1600$ more and getting a Speed3 21, and even then.....
I fly in CO where the wind is gusty. Always. Always and forever, Gusty. So you're limited to kite size by the upper end of the gusts, and in many
days that would be 12m appropriate for the breeze, I must fly the 9m because the wind will gust from 19mph up to 30+. It's a very rare day that I
need a smaller kite than the 9, and most often those are very dangerous conditions with possibility of gusts to 50+.
I will admit I occasionally feel the "hole" that a good 12m would fill for me, and I honestly am on the look for a new wing to try at that
size(Leaning towards RPM), but I would say this two kite combo has had me riding on 99% of the days that I tried to ride.
I have no problem with pumping, and my foils are in repair processes, so I've been pretty much LEI only for the last two years...
Hope my $0.02 helps in some way....UnknownAX - 4-9-2013 at 11:41 AM
I've got some seriously bad luck atm. I ALMOST bought a 13m Frenzy...but just almost. The seller disappeared at the last possible moment!
The only kites that I'm always able to find, are FS Speeds. Would a 12m Speed3 be a too big step up? (as a 1 kite quiver / together with some cheap
little arc/lei)
How controllable is the lift of kites like the speed? Let's say, I crash and lose control of the kite, the kite flies to the zenith. In a situation
like that, would the speed catapult me in the air or would it simply stay depowered in the zenith?:D
Are the Speeds easy to fly or do you need to pay a lot of attention to the kite? Does it collapse easily at the edge of the window / in gusty winds?Demoknight - 4-9-2013 at 12:07 PM
The Speed is a closed cell kite. I have not flown one myself, but plenty of guys around here in Chicago have them. It keeps air in, so holds its
shape even when it hits the ground. If you overfly the window, it just floats back into the window and looks very well behaved. I have never seen
one truly stall or collapse when it is already flown at speed through the window to get pressured up.Bladerunner - 4-9-2013 at 01:13 PM
Pimp alert !
I just posted the same 14m Eskimo that Broc refers to for sale. :DProletariat - 8-9-2013 at 01:44 AM
I have a couple of the (arguably) lesser flysurfers -- a 12m pulse 2 and an 8m psycho 3. They both have a wide enough range that there is some
overlap at about 10-15 mph. They are, however, totally different kites. If I wanted to make a 2 kite quiver, I think I'd swap the 12m for a 15m and
keep / get the 8m psycho.
They do some folding at the edge of the window, but they're wayyyy better than other, non-inflatable foils, IMO. Luffs are sort of ...erm... limited
because the air can only allow so much deformation until it pushes back.
They have a wicked amount of depower because the flysurfers change their camber, projected area and angle of attack all at the same time. They can do
neat things with all those moving parts
) kite? On the other hand, It'd propably be a great kite for the winds where my Access doesn't quite cut it...
