Power Kite Forum

Strutless kite opinions from Ozone, Liquid Force, and HQ

Purely Luck - 25-7-2013 at 09:27 AM

Hey Guys,

I recently reached out to Liquid Force, Ozone, and HQ to get their opinion on the newer strutless lei kite design that has been getting tossed around lately.

I turned it into a blog post and threw it out there for anyone to check out if they are interested.

The Truth of Strutless Kites

What are your opinions on them? Feel free to leave a comment on the post!

Thanks guys!

Snake - 25-7-2013 at 10:37 AM

*removed*

soliver - 25-7-2013 at 10:38 AM

I don't kite surf, nor do I fly LEI's, but regardless this was a very interesting read. Good blog, Thanks for sharing

erratic winds - 25-7-2013 at 11:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Snake  
I think they are going to be a flump.:) Without struts the kite becomes a large nasa wing that floats. That's good for low wind but once you add a few more mph you can use a way better performance kite. I also doubt much boosting ability out of them. Lei have less "sled boosting" than c-kites and arc's have even less than lei. Foils don't have any. The main thing lei depends on for a jump is sled boosting. Foils use the lift from the profile and depower for boost. This don't have a good profile or enough rigidity to look like it can jump.



You have some awfully strong opinions for someone who's been kiting for a year. Usually I only see such fierce statements from other forums notorious members such as the snobdr or PumpMeUp... Be careful about personal opinion and calling it fact, please.... Always good to learn about stuff before talking about them..... plenty of reviews of Maui Cloud say good jumping performance....



I have no opinion on strutless kites until I fly one. Flew ozone instinct 17 vs Naish FlyLite17, preferred the naish with one less strut, so I'm inclined to think strutless LEI's have a place in the kite world, but I won't know for sure until I get some "hands on" time....

Flyfish - 25-7-2013 at 02:06 PM

Yea. Be careful snake. Let's no turn this forum into that "other" forum.

I've had the opportunity to fly the 17 meter Cloud. I will say I think there is merit to the kite.
Brief history of my experience: I've ridden since 2000 starting on 2 lines then standard C kites, through flat kites, then to Peter Lynn's and Flysurfers. I ride twin tip, but mostly I'm a pure surfboard wave junky. I emphasize the wave ridding because that is truly how I evaluate a kite; how well does it ride waves.
That said, the 17 meter cloud really seems to shine. I'm really outspoken about how well Peter Lynn's drift when unloaded on the wave, but the big sizes suck hard on turn rates. Big flysurfer's are only marginally better tuning, but lose a bit of stability while drifting.
The cloud turns on a dime. And seems to drift almost as well as a PL.
So I truly believe that one area you will see strut less development is for pure wave ridding.
The down side Of the kite is already fairly well known in that once you are a bit over powered, it's hard to keep the kite from "fluttering". The first time using one, you will sheet out too much on the bar, and the kite starts to flutter onto the bar. It's really annoying at first, but then you realize you just don't sheet it too far.
As for traveling: I'll still take my Peter Lynn's. Pack down as small and no bladder to leak.
But it's a design that will find a nich.

Bladerunner - 25-7-2013 at 03:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Snake  
I think they are going to be a flump.:) I also doubt much boosting ability out of them. Lei have less "sled boosting" than c-kites and arc's have even less than lei. Foils don't have any. The main thing lei depends on for a jump is sled boosting. Foils use the lift from the profile and depower for boost. This don't have a good profile or enough rigidity to look like it can jump.




I am soooo confused ?

Lei to me means Leading Edge inflated. C kites are LEI ? Do you maybe mean SLE Supported Leading Edge ?

I can't figure out what " sled boost " means ?

Don't all kites use lift from the profile to boost ?

Don't all depower kites use depower to boost ?


I do see what you say about the NPW like behavior but as Flyfish says I expect you just learn to read that and not over sheet?

The only thing I know is that I don't know enough to be saying that these kites will find a market or not. I suspect they will find there niche ?

Snake - 25-7-2013 at 05:20 PM

*removed*

erratic winds - 25-7-2013 at 05:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Snake  
I wasn't saying it was fact. That was 5 minutes of typing before I went to work so it wasn't very well written.


Then please, by all means, do clarify it. You made several very large claims that were not backed up by your next post.

"Single skins just don't have much performance compared to todays refined kites." All LEI's are single-skin kites. Did you mean something else, or were you merely trying to say you don't like NPW's?

soliver - 25-7-2013 at 07:30 PM

EW, lighten up... You're barking at a very intelligent teenager which IMHO is not worth the expense of energy. What dog do you have in this fight that's worth making such a fuss over. You need not be so concerned over pointing out the wrong in something someone else says. We all are intelligent enough to recognize what's not correct when we see it.

Snake, with all due respect, you are a very intelligent young man and your research is evident in your ability to articulate it, but the simple truth is that you are not experienced enough in this sport to speak with the authority which you use. I really appreciate your enthusiasm, but I consider myself very inexperienced and I remember you joined the game here almost a year after I joined the kite world. I think it's awesome the way you think and research and experiment, but your youth drives you away from humility, which to many, can be off-putting. Remember that in spite of all you have done and all the hours you have logged strapped into your arcs, you are still young in age and in the sport. You seem like a good guy and your time will come, just be patient and eat some humble pie while you wait. ;)

Truth be told the point that has been made by all of the designers read on the attached blog post that the success of the strutless LEI is yet to be seen. I took them to say that it is a nut that many think worth cracking and we will see what comes of it.

So,... Tell me,... Why is your method of kite packing better than mine?

lives2fly - 26-7-2013 at 04:27 AM

I haven't flown any of the strutless designs yet but I think the ones that will be sustainable are the ones aimed at the the low weight, travel market.

There does not seem to be any particular evidence that the light wind models perform any better than the light wind kites with struts. I'm really impressed with my 2 strut Naish Fly - It gives similar power to a 17m from a 15m canopy. Its also the most stable kite i have ever flown.

The smaller strutless kites like the Trip would be great for travelling or for backcountry snow kiting. I don't have any plans to buy a strutless kite but Its great to see kite companies continually innovating and pushing the boundries though.

Bladerunner - 26-7-2013 at 06:35 AM

Snake,

I am not trying to get you mad. I am trying to understand what you are saying. I am truly confused .

I have never heard of sled boosting ? I think if I understood that then some other stuff may makes sense ?



Sier_Pinski - 26-7-2013 at 07:40 AM

From what I've just looked up, "Sled Boosting" is an exclusive performance feature of C-kites that increases lift and hangtime. Both arc and foil kites cannot do this. The physics behind it are too technical to describe according to most pages.

Also, I'm new to kiteboarding forums so I am curious about the story of what happened to that 'other' forum and what it is. :puzzled:

area429 - 26-7-2013 at 01:03 PM

Ahh yes... "that other forum". Love to read it, but I don't post there. Pump me up:evil: is always lurking looking for a fight... Or to Copy Pasta his long diatribe of the merits of LEI and the pitfalls of foil kites. Some of which is valid but most of which is not worth reading... Oh and not to mention it is easy to start a flame war on that other forum, which is generally avoided on this forum which I particulary like!

Good winds! (And time off work!)

Snake - 26-7-2013 at 01:04 PM

Well it looks like I made a huge mess here so I will try to fix it.

erratic winds, I dislike unsupported single skins. Single skins that have no ribs or struts to hold the kite in shape. I have made many designs and they never really worked. NPW are fine, just not my cup of tea.

soliver, I get what you are saying. My first opinions may have come off strong but based on all the single skin research and designing I did, they don't seem like they are going to be good for jumping. The profiles of single skins are designed to keep the kite open and usually don't have a good L/D.

Bladerunner, Sled boosting causes you to go to a high lift state faster and stay there longer. 2 line sleds (all lei and arcs, with c-kites have a lot more) will auto adjust there AoA when there AoA changes in flight to get to the highest lift state and stay there. The reflex profile of arc dampens this but its effect is still notice able during a jump where the AoA changes wildly. Adding rear lines to the kite kills most of the effect as the lines hold the kite at a fixed AoA so none of this really applies.

I read a 30 or so page Pdf on "sled kites" or something like that and there was tons of info on sled boosting. There are still secondary effects the like anhedral and rigidity which also contribute and lift during a jump. I can't find it on google though. I'll see if I can find it since I can only thing of those 2 secondary effects.

Sier_Pinski, on some "other" kite forums, they bash ideas and argue constantly. PKF is a rather well mannered forum compared to the rest of the internet.

soliver - 26-7-2013 at 06:59 PM

Very well said Snake,... I appreciate your opinion based on your research and construction attempts. You don't find many young people so invested and willing to independently research and try and do the way you do. I also appreciate the more humble approach you've taken in what you've said.

I personally believe there is much to be said for someone who is willing to admit that they may have goofed up... kudos. Remember what you've learned from this.

I applaud you my young friend and keep up the good work,... Just remember to work hard at not letting your mouth (or typing fingers) get ahead of your brain... Which may not be too hard cuz it seems like your brain moves REALLY fast :smilegrin: