Power Kite Forum

Actual upper wind range of HQ Toxic 8.0m

Demoknight - 21-8-2013 at 11:02 AM

Does anyone with the 8.0m Toxic have any insight on the real upper wind range on this thing? I was a bit nervous to put it up in anything over 10. A couple weeks ago I was flying around static after work one day in 7-9mph, but as the session went on, I could tell that it was getting stronger. I am just guessing at 12mph or so. At no point did I ever feel in danger or feel as though I would be lofted.

The kite was extremely well behaved, and if anything, just handled incredibly as the wind got stronger. I only got lift when I sent it, and because of the size of the kite, I was always gently lowered back down, even without redirecting.

The reason I ask is because tomorrow I have a near perfect wind day at my local beach and plan to do some buggying on my new PL Comp XR+ with extra wides I just acquired. I really want to fly the Toxic, but the forecast is 15mph with gusts to 19mph. The HQ Toxic wind chart shows that the 8.0m wind range is 4mph-18mph.

The next size smaller kite I have is the 5.0m Prism Tensor. That kite is tons of fun to fly static, but all I heard when I wanted to start buggying is it is a crap buggy engine, hence I picked up the Toxic. I have not tried the Tensor on a buggy yet, but I am afraid that I might not be able to keep it upwind with that kite and will have to do a ton of walking.

Basically I want to know from fellow Toxic owners: Do you think the 19mph gusts would loft a Toxic 8.0m with a 200lb sack of potatoes on the other end of the lines? Is the HQ wind range chart for the Toxic line bull, or is this really safe, just well powered? If it turns out that this wind is safe, then this kite actually has a pretty huge wind range compared to other kites of its size.

abkayak - 21-8-2013 at 11:27 AM

u should plan on the tensor...better safe than...well ukno..than if things feel right think about the 8m...personally cant imagine holding down 8m in 15+ let alone dealing w/ gusts

Demoknight - 21-8-2013 at 12:24 PM

Yeah, the only reason I am considering it is because the Toxic has been so well behaved in gusts so far. Sure gusts cause it to pull really hard, but I have yet to be lofted with it parked. It has almost zero vertical pull unless I send it from ten to two in a pendulum. The side pull does not worry me, because I will be able to hold down more pull in the buggy anyway.

I might try it out static first and just feel it out. I will definitely put it down and roll it up in favor of the 5.0m if I feel overwhelmed.

BigMikesKites - 21-8-2013 at 12:55 PM

8 is too much kite for my comfort level at 15 mph winds. I've seen better pilots do it, but i stick to a 5.5-6.5 range at those wind speeds. Be careful either way. Tell us how it went.

3shot - 21-8-2013 at 02:34 PM

Dude! You got your buggy???

pongnut - 21-8-2013 at 02:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BigMikesKites  
... Tell us how it went.


Don't tell us, show us - video! :frog:

Demoknight - 21-8-2013 at 02:54 PM

3shot, YES!!! I just bought it this week. A local kiteshop here in Chicago had a demo comp XR+ in great shape that is only a year old. Last week I got to demo it..... Two and a half hours later I gave the guy his buggy back! I wanted to buy a new XR+ but the extra wide tires were out of stock until December. I was one of only a handful of people that even demod the buggy, so it had a very gentle life for the year the shop had it. I got a set standard and extra wide wheels included with the bug on the cheap. My first time on a buggy was last week, and in that short time, I managed to already learn how to stay up wind and work the kite like I know what I am doing! I am just so stoked about it!

Bigmike, I am thinking that the other day when I was static flying the 8.0, I was seeing gusts that were touching 15mph and I never felt even close to out of control. The kite was really tame; it just felt well powered, yet not overpowered. Either way, the bag that the Toxic 8.0 comes in is big enough for the Toxic, my 5.0m Tensor, my 2.0m Stylus, and my harness, so I will have all my bases covered. The only drawback is I almost literally have no overlap whatsoever in my quiver.

3shot - 21-8-2013 at 04:18 PM

Bro! That is awesome!!!!
Congrats on the buggy :D:D:D

And as far as the quiver gap, well.... just buy more kites! ;):evil:

Bladerunner - 21-8-2013 at 04:22 PM

Always size for gusts ! At 15mph there isn't really much room for them and an 8m kite.

I have seen people riding and having a good time using the Tensor in a buggy. They were getting a good ride in some pretty low winds . You may lack a bit in upwind travel but I'm sure you will enjoy it. There may be a bit more overlap than you think with those 2 kites?

Look at buying or making a back rest for that XR. It makes them sooooo much more comfortable.

RonH - 21-8-2013 at 06:20 PM

12mph in a PL buggy is about all the power you can hold down with an 8...

skimtwashington - 22-8-2013 at 05:23 AM

hmmm....:rolleyes:

I'm thinking if you first survive a launch in 18 or 19mph... you better be ready to transfer the enormous pull into mach speed or an OBE is coming quick! The turns are gonna be very precarious also.

Maybe someone can handle it .. but shows going by the chart doesn't always come out realistic....although I do somewhat agree with the upper limit ratings on the smaller sizes as more realistic for averge weight and experienced fliers.

"..sack o' potatoes" :puzzled: Is this you or a ballast you're gonna be using?...:lol:

For comparison....I'd be using no more than just a 4m high aspect kite in those winds..though I'm a 155 weight

Demoknight - 22-8-2013 at 07:22 AM

Haha, Yeah every time I check the forecast for today, the gusts get higher and higher. I can just see it now: I try a suicide jibe to keep from getting lofted, and I catch a rut with the wheel and OBE anyway... I think I will be keeping the 8.0 on the ground unless the forecast is wrong and the wind feels a little lighter. I am confident in flying my Tensor 5.0m in anything up to 20+, which is actually great fun for jumping. If the wind is really nuking though, I have an old two line Stylus 2.0m that I can put up. No brakes on that bad boy, but it really needs 20mph+ to even get a tiny scud out of it. I doubt it would pull a buggy unless the wind was really howling.

Demoknight - 22-8-2013 at 01:41 PM

T-Minus one hour until I head to the beach to buggy until the sun goes down. Looks like the wind has toned down to 9 with gusts up to 15mph. Just about perfect to use the 8.0 :) I am so stoked to get out there finally on a good windy day.

Sier_Pinski - 22-8-2013 at 03:53 PM

I have a 5-meter low-aspect foil, and the lowest I can go before it gets close to impossible to landboard in a beach is 9 mph. Maybe the 8M Toxic can cover the lower end wind range that my current light wind engine can't access.

Demoknight - 23-8-2013 at 06:30 AM

I wouldn't call a 5m low wind, unless you are talking about minimum wind to put the kite in the air. My 5.0m will barely make me lean back in the same wind that my 8.0 drags my ass all over the place.

On another note, weather forecast was COMPLETELY wrong. 15mph wind my ass... When I showed up, all flags were limp and I didn't even feel a puff for over a half hour. I stayed and it eventually picked up to maybe 5mph, which would pull the bug just fine, but not enough wind to keep the kite moving once I started moving. I know I don't have much practice on the bug yet, but my big foil was only barely scudding while I was static, so I don't think it was me. Especially considering just a week ago I was zooming around making suicide jibes and staying upwind on the exact same bug and kite my first time even sitting in a bug.

Sier_Pinski - 23-8-2013 at 08:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  

On another note, weather forecast was COMPLETELY wrong. 15mph wind my ass... When I showed up, all flags were limp and I didn't even feel a puff for over a half hour...


Lemme guess... WindAlert iPhone app? I have had those same moments of frustration as well. :thumbdown:

But you will be surprised as to how well my bigger kite has performed at the beach in low wind. With 8-10 MPH perpendicular winds, I have gone reasonably fast on my landboard on hard-packed sand both directions. And when there's no wind at all, I can fly my both my kites static by simply walking backwards.

I owned a Prism Snapshot before, and it feels like it is made of heavier, thicker material than Ozone's foil kites, so that may be part of it.

BeamerBob - 23-8-2013 at 09:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
Especially considering just a week ago I was zooming around making suicide jibes and staying upwind on the exact same bug and kite my first time even sitting in a bug.


You must be the first buggier ever to learn suicide jibes your first time in the buggy! :thumbup::thumbup:

Demoknight - 23-8-2013 at 09:30 AM

Lol BB The only reason I was doing suicide jibes was because the wind was too light for upturns or loops, so it was the only way I could pull the buggy through a turn. Plus, I was probably moving less than 10-15 mph while doing them anyway. Although, I have to say, turning that way just feels natural. Bring the kite up a bit, then dive it through the power on a downturn and crank the wheel just as the kite hooks up. It was a magical experience the first time I did it smoothly. It took me about two hours to learn how to stay upwind. I am still not all that good at the bug yet, as last night I felt like I was trying to fly a bag of cotton candy every time I sat down in the bug, but I would stand up, and the kite would pop and do whatever I wanted... It was a frustrating session. Today the wind looks a bit better, current readings are about 9mph with gusts to 15, which should hopefully still be there when I go out to try again.

Demoknight - 23-8-2013 at 09:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sier_Pinski  
Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  

On another note, weather forecast was COMPLETELY wrong. 15mph wind my ass... When I showed up, all flags were limp and I didn't even feel a puff for over a half hour...


Lemme guess... WindAlert iPhone app? I have had those same moments of frustration as well. :thumbdown:

But you will be surprised as to how well my bigger kite has performed at the beach in low wind. With 8-10 MPH perpendicular winds, I have gone reasonably fast on my landboard on hard-packed sand both directions. And when there's no wind at all, I can fly my both my kites static by simply walking backwards.

I owned a Prism Snapshot before, and it feels like it is made of heavier, thicker material than Ozone's foil kites, so that may be part of it.


My Tensor seems to be about the same quality of my Prism stunt kites, which is excellent. The material feels like the same stuff used in any other foils I have seen or felt.

I have the windfinder app, but I triple check it with sharkwind.com and weather.com to get a decent average of the three. I was also keeping an eye on our local Doppler and noticed a storm moving east was being pushed south by all the wind, which made even more sense that it really must have been blowing. It's just that the wind stopped dead right before I got there is all. Not even a puff for an hour.

BeamerBob - 23-8-2013 at 11:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
Lol BB The only reason I was doing suicide jibes was because the wind was too light for upturns or loops, so it was the only way I could pull the buggy through a turn. Plus, I was probably moving less than 10-15 mph while doing them anyway. Although, I have to say, turning that way just feels natural. Bring the kite up a bit, then dive it through the power on a downturn and crank the wheel just as the kite hooks up. It was a magical experience the first time I did it smoothly. It took me about two hours to learn how to stay upwind. I am still not all that good at the bug yet, as last night I felt like I was trying to fly a bag of cotton candy every time I sat down in the bug, but I would stand up, and the kite would pop and do whatever I wanted... It was a frustrating session. Today the wind looks a bit better, current readings are about 9mph with gusts to 15, which should hopefully still be there when I go out to try again.


Ahh, what you are doing is a good low wind technique called simply a downturn. Some of the motions are similar to a suicide jibe but the execution and outcome are much different. With a suicide jibe, there is no dive through the power, but rather a sweep through it as the kite swings from wind behind it to being downwind of the buggy again. For a moment, the kite is actually upwind of the buggy and being flown by your momentum instead of the actual wind. Still good on you for learning and having the confidence to do downturns. You should progress nicely.

PS. There is a video called high speed turns visible in my youtube link in my sig that shows multiple suicide jibes.

skimtwashington - 23-8-2013 at 01:10 PM

BB.....Y'know...you really can't see the kite down turning in video(high speed turns) ...camera is not on the kite.


...reshoot?:smilegrin:

BeamerBob - 23-8-2013 at 02:19 PM

Ok if I have to! :cool: I want to make a vid with the camera stationary past the end of the turn and also with someone shooting from inside the turn with me turning around them. Since the kite is directly overhead for a portion of the turn, the helmet cam isn't a great vantage point.

Demoknight - 26-8-2013 at 10:13 AM

BB, the turns you are doing in your high speed turn video that you call Suicide Gybes are the same turns that I was doing. I was under the impression that a suicide jibe is simply downturning the kite at the end of your run to power the buggy through the turn without slowing. I didn't have anyone join me to take pictures or video last week when I went riding, but hopefully soon I can get some footage. I was definitely doing the same turns as you do in that video. My beach is still frequented by the sun bathers, so they have the tractors rake the beach every night and it is pretty loose sand at the moment. The only way I can really turn is without slowing down because the sand is still so loose that if you let the power off the kite even for a second you lose have your speed.

BeamerBob - 26-8-2013 at 11:10 AM

I usually have to be going over 35 mph for a suicide jibe to work. That number would go down somewhat with a larger kite. Are you making a sweeping turn with a 75-100 foot diameter or more like diving the kite into a downturn and sliding around? As I think about it, with a larger kite and slower speeds, the turn wouldn't have to be as large a diameter.

Demoknight - 26-8-2013 at 11:25 AM

Diving the kite and sliding around the turn as the kite pulls the buggy around. My beach has loose sand right now because of them grading it every night, so I don't think I have even been over 15mph yet. This is with my 8.0m FB in 7-9mph of wind. Same process, just lower top speed because of loose sand and lower wind.

BeamerBob - 26-8-2013 at 11:44 AM

That's the distinct difference between a downturn and suicide jibe. The kite goes overhead right as you turn the buggy downwind. For a few seconds, the kite is flying with the wind hitting it's top skin and continues flying because you and the buggy are towing it. Then after you are halfway through your sweeping turn, the kite continues to sweep through the turn and come back into the wind again, which gives a surge of power as the kite starts to pull all the way from one edge of the window to the other. In the video, while it is hard to pay attention to everything due to the camera being too close to show the kite and the ground very well, you can watch the ground and horizon to get a sense of the speed going into the turn and how the buggy is still going very fast after the turn.

It seems like it would be easier to learn this turn on the lakebed surface where it is not easy to slide, but many of the best pilots learned on soft sand. I didn't know the turn existed until my first nabx in 2010 when I saw the PL speed buggy going the same direction I was and suddenly it was headed back to me without ever slowing down. I was still doing the slowdown and upturn turns or slowdown and downturn if conditions were within my comfort zone, so I knew something strange had happened.

Demoknight - 26-8-2013 at 12:44 PM

I see, so you have to be going a great deal faster than the static wind speed so that you are powering the kite behind you to fly overhead and down in front of you. I understand that better now. And Yeah, I can see how a lake bed would be best for learning that. Such good grip and such low rolling resistance.

BeamerBob - 26-8-2013 at 01:00 PM

I remembered this video that has Ozzy and Arie doing perfect turns (big surprise). This shows it from a distance so you can see the whole thing at once. Watch for it at 1:24

3shot - 26-8-2013 at 05:46 PM

One awesome vid!!