Power Kite Forum - Are you ready for the buggy?

Are you ready for the buggy?

bigkid - 2-9-2013 at 03:12 AM

Over the last couple weeks the question has been asked by mostly tourists and the lookie lou, "Where can I rent one of those?"
While an extra PL buggy is sitting on the sand beside the Appex and the Libre, I hear the words, "Can I borrow your bug? this newbie wants to start bugging". I am sure you yourself have said it and you have heard the question.
When is it the right time to get in the bug? Who decides? Any prerequisites? What is the procedure for teaching? What qualifies you to teach? Where do you do this? How much do you charge for rentals or teaching? I have been asked a million more and have heard a bazillion more from others.

With the constant reminder of my daily handful of morning, mid-day and evening dose of meds from an awesome OBE a few years ago, I have thought about this question way to much and for way to long with way to many replies.
Being a business owner, a grandfather, a friend, and most of all, a buggier who cheated death, what gives me the right to teach, help or even dictate any policy for someone to buggy?

Now there are those I think are great at the buggy, those that have great skills and those that make it look easy. There are also those that should never be allowed to touch a kite let along get in a buggy.

This is my OPINION, and by no means what you should live by.
You all can do as you want and teach as you see fit, you can even sell your stuff to a newbie on ebay and let them figure it out or even hurt or kill someone. Are you ready to post a reply yet? Tell me off and how it should be done? Go for it.

I ask these questions because we are a group of enthusiasts who want nothing more than to make the sport grow and have a blast doing what the addiction has told us to do. With the stuff going on with Washington State and the rules, laws, insurance, and government officials who are not the sharpest knifes in the drawer, and with the group NAPKA, and the rest of us a community of responsible enthusiasts, how do we deal with this?

I have thought about this and I have a set of rules and requirements that the students must follow in order to kite, buggy, board, and join in the sport. I am proud of my students, and I know without any reservations they will not be a problem, cause any grief, and promote the sport with knowledge, skills and a smile as big as the beach itself.

BigMikesKites - 2-9-2013 at 04:34 AM

When i train people, i wont let them get in the buggy. Once i've been with them many times, and i know they can handle the different kites statically, and demonstrate that they can park the kite in one spot in the sky, and fly it around without looking, then we can talk about buggies.

Thats just me. Maybe its overkill. But if they aren't ready and then aren't successful buggying, i'm the first one that they complain about. When they are successful, i'm the first one they say good things about.

KYTE SLINGER - 2-9-2013 at 09:10 AM

ditto what BIG mike said

not knowing kite skills ,will make learning 2 buggy difficult
just one less thing to "think" about when they are ready to
step into the buggy

also static Physical training helps move up in size of wings
also dry runs /walk with the wing as you would if your in a buggy turn the wing turn your body walk the other way. .

this could be done learning freestyle tricks as well

quote
you can even sell your stuff to a newbie on ebay and let them figure it out or even hurt or kill someone. Are you ready to post a reply yet? Tell me off and how it should be done? Go for it. quote..

remember every aspect reflects on other kiters
if you/we don't regulate our selfs then an outside agency will step in and will... now you have no say so... even BAN!!!

soliver - 2-9-2013 at 01:07 PM

I'm the only one I know of in the metro Atlanta area that rides a kite buggy,... There may be others, but they are either no longer active, not on THIS forum or don't ride where I do. The only other local I know that kites is Kevin (knkmanthey) but he doesn't buggy, he landboards. That said, I'm the only example people see around my part, so I try to be as courteous and respectful as I am capable of. I'm certain there are other kiters,... I just don't know them.

I have had very few friends take me up on teaching them to fly, even wifey... Several are interested in the sport, but none so much that we can coordinate schedules to teach one of them.

What was most successful for my learning was spending time with experienced riders (pokitetrash) and getting down the turning thing by walking with the kite (as though in a buggy) just like kyte slinger was talking about.... But I've never gotten any friends to maintain interest long enough to get that far.

Windy Heap - 2-9-2013 at 02:10 PM

As I'm a scuba dive instructor, I can teach a person to live and survive while breathing underwater.

That said, there are awesome skilled divers with 10-20 dives under their belt, and also very unsafe crappy skills horrible divers that have 200 dives under their belt.

Often, it is that muscle between the ears that allows smarts and skills take over. During smooth diving, or kiting, everything is golden, until that OH POOP moment, and then reality hits the fan.

awindofchange - 2-9-2013 at 08:43 PM

When I teach, the main thing I look for is the student's ability to control the kite. If they don't have good comfortable control of the kite, they aren't going to get into a buggy. When I feel they are ready to try the buggy, the conditions always play the most important part in allowing them to do so. The winds must be reasonable, the kite must be sized accordingly (usually slightly smaller than normal) and the area must be safe for both the spectators as well as the pilot. All safety gear must be present! If everything feels ok and the skills are there, they are ok to drop into the buggy and give it a go. I always include constant contact in the buggy with either walking/running behind or with two way radios. If I can't keep up with them, the wind is too strong for a first time rider. Just my rules.

This is mostly fixed with kite size. Once they get the "feel" of what they need to do to ride, then we can size up a little if possible and do a "follow the leader" type run where I lead and they follow behind to learn the correct tack angles and where to put the kite. No two pilots are the same. I have had some that have jumped in the buggy on a perfect wind day and within 5 minutes they are riding like pro with upwind tacks, kite control, stopping etc... Others have had weeks of working with them and they are still nervous and sketchy. The main thing is safety. Last thing I want is to have a new pilot injured and hurting instead of grinning from ear to ear with adrenaline and fun.

greasehopper - 3-9-2013 at 12:52 AM

There are two kinds of people who ride motorcycles, those who have stepped off and those who will.
Same deal with Kite Buggy. If you do this long enough, eventually you're gonna get bounced. Most are lucky enough to share their stories, some aren't. Jeff is here to help us remember to respect and honor this fragile gift called life.

I know I'm gonna incur the wrath of the entire community here but one of the first skills I teach is to recognize the signs of impending doom and let go. The kite only makes power while it has an anchor. I'ld rather spend an afternoon with someone un-mucking a set of dropped handles than bringing them ice chips in the E.R. I can't count the number of times that little drill has saved cells from exploding during a training session.

I've had apt pupils go from complete neophyte to simple out-n-back run in one day. I've also had guys get yarded by a 1.5 Imp flying static in 15mph winds because they refused to follow the "Let Go" rule.

abkayak - 3-9-2013 at 07:01 AM

Everybody has a different learning curve..some are more willing or apt to loose teeth or risk breaking bones..even when you/they have the skills tuff to know who is who till things get going..so you have to be protective of others first…my buds see me bug or board and that’s what they want to do..but to get them to come put in the time static or just log the necessary hours??? Go figure they just want to bug…so what qualifies me to teach others?? Only that I’m willing to give up my teeth and no one elses...nowadays i have young crowd watching me...the teaching is gonna start soon in my town

bigkid - 3-9-2013 at 07:49 AM

I was hoping for a bit of rebelry and defiance along with what has been posted.:evil:

I know that when someone shows some interest in the sport the excitement builds up inside of us and we want the person to instantly advance to the point were we are so we can have a buddy to share the sport with. With that excitement we have a tendency to overlook some of the aspects that were important to our learning and that can be detrimental if not dangerous to the newbie or the unsuspecting public.

I personally would like to see a set of guide lines, requirements, or what ever you want to call them, so the public, government and insurance companies can see that there is no reason to interfere with the sport and start regulating it out of existence.

Big Kid School of Buggy.

These are the rules that I teach by.
You are shown how to setup and put away the kite.
You are shown how to launch and fly in a safe place away from others.
Shown how to reverse launch.
Shown how to stake out the handles and untangle the bowtie and relaunch the kite.
You have to show how to handle the kite and perform the basics(what I just shown them). Launch, hold the kite at the zenith and walk a ways with the kite. Hold the kite at the right side/left side of the window and walk a a few feet.
Show an upturn, down turn on the right side and left side.
Sine the kite up and down along with side to side.

1) You must show how to fly a 4-line kite from the zenith to the far right side, over to the left side and back to the zenith.
At each position you have to hold the kite there for 5 seconds or more, all of this with out the kite crashing or touching the ground. ALL OF THIS HAS TO BE DONE WITH YOUR EYES COVERED.
If you can do this for a minute, you can do it for an hour. Now you are able to get in a buggy and concentrate on the bug, not the kite.
2) I have a set of handles that have 10 feet of line on them and the lines are connected to a bar that I hold. The student is shown the basics of the bug and the wind. We talk a bit about the kite and the bug and the beach/park and the grab the handles and have a seat in a PL bug.
I become the kite. They tell me where to stand so they can launch and begin. I can pull them if they do everything correct. If and when the do something wrong, I stop and tell them they just crashed the kite and explain why.I walk them trough the launch, turns, landing, and upwind turns, downwind turns, doing a down winder and such stuff.
Instead of them using a real kite and spending hours, weeks, months, years to relaunch the kite after it crashes and tring to figure it out by themselves they can be off on there own in as little as 15 minutes. A bit of yelling from the sidelines about "what are you doing wrong?" they are now grinning from ear to ear.
A bit of dialog between runs will fine tune the person into a great buggier.

Now there are a few other things I also throw in and teach but this is for all purpose the basics of what I do. There is also the rules of the road with who has the right away, passing people, horses, how to stop and wait for a vehicle to pass, and stuff.

I do not charge for this service, and you do not have to complete the teaching to to it yourself. It is what I do to help the sport and share what I have been shown, what I have learned and what I know.
Granted not everyone will have to ability to learn this way, or come to Washington State for a personal lesson, but it could be the basis of what you teach. As with all of life there are those that dont play by the rules and I am ok with that. I have seen some older buggy riders that learned a hundred years ago and have no regards for others safety as well as newbies that know it all from birth. Whether you learn from someone who has the skills and will teach you, learn on your own, or JUST GO FOR IT, I hope to see something established from us before it is told to us by those that dont have a clue.
As for a video, well.........

BeamerBob - 3-9-2013 at 08:07 AM

Sorry Jeff, I can't find anything to argue with you about! I've had new pilots that were ready for the buggy in an hour or two of learning to fly the kite and others that I could never get in control of the kite. While the lists of things to perform are good, the important thing is that they can display control of the kite and be able to anticipate what the kite is about to do. Then wheels might be in the picture.

flyguy0101 - 3-9-2013 at 08:12 AM

Here is some rebelry and defiance for you Jeff- I dont teach and dont want to teach- Locally that is. I guess i am a selfish bastard when it comes to kiting at home. I have had several folks and friends express interest in learning but the wind is fickle and cant be "scheduled" to fit their needs. The other side of the equation is I have very limited locations and have worked fairly hard at getting those locations- that I do not want someone to lose them for me. Of course i expect my friends to have enough common sense that losing a site would not be a possibility but having more folks show up or an increase in areas being used could be enough to shut them down.
Now for reality- I have never been lucky enough to have anyone want to pursue it much, once they fly the kite and feel the power and work required;they have typically lost interest because it is more work then pushing a lever or turning a key.....or i am just a bad teacher:D
Scott

bigkid - 3-9-2013 at 09:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Sorry Jeff, I can't find anything to argue with you about! I've had new pilots that were ready for the buggy in an hour or two of learning to fly the kite and others that I could never get in control of the kite. While the lists of things to perform are good, the important thing is that they can display control of the kite and be able to anticipate what the kite is about to do. Then wheels might be in the picture.

Im disapointed Bobby, was hoping for at least a clarification...

bigkid - 3-9-2013 at 09:47 PM

Scott, You a selfish person? Never. A bad teacher, hmmmmmmmm maybe.:P
For the reason you dont is why I do. A few people have been working for years to open the beaches here. So to help as much as I can, I teach.

So is there anyone not in aggrement? Is the lack of responce a sign that everyone agrees with me?:o
Is there a market for a video of this school of teaching. Maybe get a real actor to do the vid.

bigE123 - 4-9-2013 at 01:09 AM

Ok here we go.... Whilst giving up your valuable time is very commendable and for that I tip my hat, my question is are you insured to teach people? Or do you only teach people who hold insurance? In our current climate of "where there's blame there's a claim" are you not leaving yourself in a very vulnerable position?

Kites, motorbikes .... the list goes on, are potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, the wrong hands maybe a lack of knowledge / experience, but it may also be due to the fact that they have the wrong mind set for a potentially dangerous sport, no matter how much training you give, that do or die / sod everyone else will always be there. Some people just don't get it, that it's not just about them it's about others as well, they are the ones that will ultimately bring us down.

I also ride a motorbike (in the UK) and the amount of training and cost that's needed now for a younger person to get a full licence eventually inhibit a new generation taking up biking. All because too many think they are invincible and forget about self control when hitting the throttle in inappropriate places and get everyone else tarred with the same brush.

bigkid - 4-9-2013 at 03:30 AM

Wonder why this double posted:puzzled:

BeamerBob - 4-9-2013 at 07:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Im disapointed Bobby, was hoping for at least a clarification...

You'll have to try harder to get a rise out of me. Usually people stating their opinion as fact will do it, or being nasty to someone that didn't deserve it. Not a whisper of either here so here is a brotherly pat on the back for being a good mentor for the sport.

shortlineflyer - 4-9-2013 at 07:52 AM

while I know I am not that great a buggier, I try to do the best I can with the experience I have. I do agree with BeamerBob, I dont really see anything I can argue against, and I love to argue just for the sake of arguing.

rocfighter - 4-9-2013 at 08:01 AM

No you don't. :P
I also agree with what has been said here. I am mostly self taught with kites and buggy. I would have progressed so much faster with some one helping me. Over the last 3-4 years I have learned a lot from my family at WBB and Nahant beach. And last May at Jekkyl. Thanks to every one who supports newbees and oldies alike!

Michael Gaylan - 4-9-2013 at 09:09 AM

I would like to make an observation here.

I can agree with a lot of this mostly because it is all said based on each ones opinions of a subject according to their own experiences with it.

Here is why I say it's ok though. I maintain, each one has a taste of cost behind his or her own education. That's one thing we can say will always come out of pocket one way or another. So with that consideration, there is the factor in each buggy owner that will impact his decision when to put a noob in his/her buggy.

I'm the kind of guy who doesn't like to break something that belongs to someone else. I will never do anything intentional to damage someone elses property no matter what it is. But that won't stop me from pushing my own stuff to the limits. I certainly wouldn't want anyone pushing mine to it's limits either. That's should be common sense to everyone.

Teaching someone comes with the responsibility of knowing the buggy can get damaged seriously at the same time, expect it could. Then where is the blame going to rest? Will it rest on the one you are taking under your wing if it was certainly an accident? Or will it be forgiven because we're not letting "things" come between us?

So we are left with a decision on what's right and wrong when it comes to the buggy, and noobs and qualifications for teaching. Let me say this. The only one qualified to teach would be the one being asked to do so by the one doing the asking. With obvious reasons NO? I wouldn't ask someone who I see continuously rubbing his/her body parts on the sand with a kite and buggy. Anyone disagree? LOL

Can we also agree that each of us are teachers of our own skills? Were we not coached and yet self taught once the the law of nature kicks in? Why convert the true nature of kite flying into a commercial business of schools and payed instructors and then start giving people tickets for not paying you to give them permission to fly? Anyone seeing the paradigm here?

If one is willing to accept "payment" for instructions, s/he is taking on the liability and shouldn't cry if property is broken. That's what insurance is for. Otherwise there can be no injury.

There is and will come a time, when I present my buggy to the world. It will be the first of it's kind too. But such is life if it never materializes.. LOL At any rate, I can see me bringing this buggy out there and asking someone who is known for knowing how to proof a new buggy. Then it would be me asking someone to tear my stuff up. So when/if it breaks, I satisfied my curiosity and found out what I needed to know thanked my test subject (dummy) and go fly a kite.

I wouldn't ask a noob to test it.

I said all that to show that it is all part of what one has experience, and when/if one is willing to take responsibility.

cheers

Clive - 4-9-2013 at 02:15 PM

Are you ready for the buggy.........

I learnt mostly from watching YouTube videos to start with, practiced for a month or so static, until I could react without too much thought.
Hopped in a buggy unharnessed, a few months later harnessed in.
I have never tried flying a kite blindfolded or with my eyes closed, and I have to admit I have no intention of doing so. OBEs , yeah had a few, guess its a rite of passage to some degree. But I am aware of some of the hazards, hence wearing armor and helmets etc, even though most of the locals only wear a helmet.
It's such a niche sport over here there is no tuition or courses to learn by, but the locals are happy enough to offer advice when asked.
Maybe it's Australian irreverence, but it seems to be a suck it and see what happens sport here.

ChrisH - 5-9-2013 at 07:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Clive

Are you ready for the buggy.........

I learnt mostly from watching YouTube videos to start with, practiced for a month or so static, until I could react without too much thought.
Hopped in a buggy unharnessed, a few months later harnessed in.
I have never tried flying a kite blindfolded or with my eyes closed, and I have to admit I have no intention of doing so. OBEs , yeah had a few, guess its a rite of passage to some degree. But I am aware of some of the hazards, hence wearing armor and helmets etc, even though most of the locals only wear a helmet.
It's such a niche sport over here there is no tuition or courses to learn by, but the locals are happy enough to offer advice when asked.
Maybe it's Australian irreverence, but it seems to be a suck it and see what happens sport here.

That's pretty much my story as well. When I teach somebody, I just make sure that I'm satisfied with their kiting skills, strap a helmet on them, and send them on their way. Never had a problem.

If I were going to start a school or something, I would do like two four hour sessions on a kite and send them on their way in the buggy. Obviously, safety gear and correct conditions are a must.

popeyethewelder - 6-9-2013 at 01:14 AM

I think your personal set of rules for teaching a novice the ropes before sitting in a buggy is very good Jeff, I would like to copy them and let others follow your lead....it is always difficult to......hold them back, not let them jump a few steps, but I can see, all your steps make perfect sence, although a novice flying blind may be a bit of an ask for many people, plus as mentioned PPE, helmet, gloves etc, has to be installed in the program at the first level.

You do the sport a great service Jeff with your time and knowledge, keep up the valued work you do