Power Kite Forum

Looking for the best 4M kite out there

dangerdan - 13-9-2013 at 07:31 AM

When I say "the best" I mean a quality kite that will take the abuse when I come down down hard on grass. I have only been kiting for 1 month and have problems with tight turns low to the ground resulting in hard impacts. I have already blown the seam on my Beamer 4M (still waiting for bonded polyester thread to arrive). For those wondering if this kite is to big for me, I'm about 280lb and a 4M kite put a smile on my face. I have flown a Beamer 3M, it was alright but it did not have the same fun factor as the 4M.
Any recommendations would be appreciated.

riffclown - 13-9-2013 at 07:38 AM

I would have said the Beamer..

bigkid - 13-9-2013 at 07:57 AM

Lets see....
A Zebra Z1
A PKD Buster Soulfly
So many kites, so many choices. And not one of the choices would be wrong.

Scudley - 13-9-2013 at 08:12 AM

Reflex 4m is my favorite kite.
S

B-Roc - 13-9-2013 at 08:37 AM

Mac Bego 400

indigo_wolf - 13-9-2013 at 08:39 AM

The quality difference between top tier fixed bridle kites (Ozone, HQ, Peter Lynn, <insert your favorite brand here> ) is so minimal that it really won't make that much of a difference in terms of nose dive survivability. One brand might outlast another by a crash or two, but it then just become a matter of "when" not "if."

In a nose down down crash, the air inlets get coverd as the leading edge conforms to the terrain. The impact tries to force air out of the cells, but with no place to go, the internal cell pressure increases until one of the seams gives out.

On some depower kites (notably Flysurfer & Ozone) the underside of the canopy has overlaping, but open panels that are called blowout valves. In a nose down crash, as the canopy deforms, the panels open, and the air escapes so that internal cell pressure is kept below catastrophic levels.

If you crashes are a regular part of your flying curriculum, you can do two things.

First....as soon as you know you are going to crash, run flat out towards the kite. Taking as much tension out of the lines decelerates the kites, and reduces the amount of force it hits the ground with.

Line tension = speed = momentum = impact force = conversion of kite into smaller nylon pieces.

You might consider getting a few strips of male and female velcro and applie it to the corresponding strips of velcro at the dirt outs, so that they are always open. Basically, this would allow the dirtouts to act as a poor man's "blowout valves."

Your kite will fly a bit differently, and it's not a cure all, but it will provide you with an additional margin of safety as the air will have a place to escape during a crash. Crash hard enough, and you will still blow out seams/cells.

ATB,
Sam

Scudley - 13-9-2013 at 09:40 AM

Sam, one thing to consider in blowing cells when booffing is the number of cells: the larger the cell cross section, the greater the hoop stress for a given pressure. So a 4m kite with 36 cells will stand up to a booffing far better than a 4m kite made of the same material but with only 18 cells as the 36 cell kite will have half force on the seems of the kite with 18 cells.
More cells = stronger kite given same material and construction.
S

DAKITEZ - 13-9-2013 at 09:51 AM

People are being nice and not stating the obvious. Don't crash would solve your issue.
Practice, practice, and practice. Fly the kite higher in the wind window. Don't fly so close to the ground till your skills are at that level. Flying higher in the window will give you time to recover from pilot error. Everyone crashes every now and then, but no need to continually do it. Like was said above they will all break sooner than later if you continue to pound them in the ground.
I would advise you continue to practice on your current kite as its ready damaged. Then when your skills get better get a new kite as you will not abuse it as much.

DAKITEZ - 13-9-2013 at 10:03 AM

A couple tips you can try is when you get close to the ground do an up turn. This way the kite will be turning away from the ground and headed towards zenith. Another thing you can do is use a brake turn. This way the kite will stop most forward momentum and just spin around and go in the direction you want. You will have control of the turn till you release that brake. These are not light wind tricks but it sounds like you have plenty of wind. If you have enough wind to blow a seam you have enough to use these tricks. Happy Flying!

shehatesmyhobbies - 13-9-2013 at 10:34 AM

Im with Dino on this one. Learn to make the corrections so that your kite does not slam in to the ground and pop cells. While some folks still have times when they crash a kite LE Down, trying to minimize the sudden contact is the best solution.

Maybe you should get a smaller kite or fly the kite in less wind till you can master it. A lot of kites have similar construction, but they just simply are not designed to out last continuous hard nose impacts. Lucky for you, you were on a grass field. If you had done that on a hard pack beach, you would have blown three or four cells, basically making it a wall hanger.(cost of repair vs replacement)

Good luck and fly safe.

Scudley - 13-9-2013 at 10:45 AM

Sorry guys, I have to disagree about all kites not taking many boofs. GP kiters have watched old Carl boof his kites time after time day after day. He has two kites, SC Reflex 3m and Ozone Rage(?what ever replaced the Samurai) 4.5m. They have lasted five years of the worst flying "skills(?)" I have ever seen. Some kites seem to a hit a lot better than others.
S

shehatesmyhobbies - 13-9-2013 at 10:58 AM

Sean, I Do agree the SC Reflex that you flew definitely has more cells, and would take a licking and keep on ticking, but it does not change the fact it is not good for the kite, and better flying skills should prevail. I would not call a kite the best kite because it can take abuse like LE crashes. Just saying...:)

bigkid - 13-9-2013 at 11:00 AM

Along with Scudley I would have to agree, my grandsons job, when we get a new kite in, is to blow it up. He will do everything possible to blow it up. Some last longer than others and only 1 kite has not blowed up yet. The Buster Soulfly is the only one that has beat the kid.
It is very unsettling to listen to a kite as it is pile driven into the ground with a loud boom, over and over and over until the poor kid is covered in sweat and begging for his brother to give it a shot. Makes me cringe just thinking about it. He asks every once in a while now if he can get the kite out so he can be the one to kill it.

jgorm - 13-9-2013 at 11:10 AM

I'm with the others, just dont crash! Slam on the brakes, run towards the kite, let go of the handles, etc when you are in that position.

dangerdan - 13-9-2013 at 11:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf  
The quality difference between top tier fixed bridle kites (Ozone, HQ, Peter Lynn, <insert your favorite brand here> ) is so minimal that it really won't make that much of a difference in terms of nose dive survivability. One brand might outlast another by a crash or two, but it then just become a matter of "when" not "if."

In a nose down down crash, the air inlets get coverd as the leading edge conforms to the terrain. The impact tries to force air out of the cells, but with no place to go, the internal cell pressure increases until one of the seams gives out.

On some depower kites (notably Flysurfer & Ozone) the underside of the canopy has overlaping, but open panels that are called blowout valves. In a nose down crash, as the canopy deforms, the panels open, and the air escapes so that internal cell pressure is kept below catastrophic levels.

If you crashes are a regular part of your flying curriculum, you can do two things.

First....as soon as you know you are going to crash, run flat out towards the kite. Taking as much tension out of the lines decelerates the kites, and reduces the amount of force it hits the ground with.

Line tension = speed = momentum = impact force = conversion of kite into smaller nylon pieces.

You might consider getting a few strips of male and female velcro and applie it to the corresponding strips of velcro at the dirt outs, so that they are always open. Basically, this would allow the dirtouts to act as a poor man's "blowout valves."

Your kite will fly a bit differently, and it's not a cure all, but it will provide you with an additional margin of safety as the air will have a place to escape during a crash. Crash hard enough, and you will still blow out seams/cells.

ATB,
Sam


Thanks Sam, for the great advise.
As for the rest of you, also a great thanks.
There a lot of good info provided and its going to take me a while to sort thru it.

riffclown - 13-9-2013 at 12:30 PM

I'd also advise practicing the maneuver you're having issues with 20ft off the ground until you get it perfected. That gives you 20ft to recover instead of one. Then venture closer to the altitude you want. Also,train yourself to not pull back on both handles when headed downward. This accelerates the kite and is a first response that feels natural but has the exact opposite effect. Pick one or the other and yank it. it will avert a direct impact with the ground. In essence, train yourself away from the undesirable crashing. You should also try kite killers initially since you can just let go of the handles and remove the vast majority or risk to damaging the kite.

Once you get rid of panic actions and replace them with averting actions, you'll get a much greater enjoyment out of the hobby.

DAKITEZ - 13-9-2013 at 01:58 PM

I actually did come up with the best kite for you. And no its not something I sell or promote like some listed above :lol: It simply is the best for what you asked for.

NASA WING .. NPW! Seriously nobody can disagree with me on this one. Single skin so no cells to blow. Crash it all you want!

shehatesmyhobbies - 13-9-2013 at 02:04 PM

Now your talking Dino!

SFKITER - 13-9-2013 at 10:00 PM

hahaha I was gonna saw how come know one is saying how about dont crash your kite..... I have no idea how you blow a cell on a Beamer those things are sturdy as hell. I never even no how people blow cells on Symphonies.


Quote: Originally posted by DAKITEZ  
People are being nice and not stating the obvious. Don't crash would solve your issue.
Practice, practice, and practice. Fly the kite higher in the wind window. Don't fly so close to the ground till your skills are at that level. Flying higher in the window will give you time to recover from pilot error. Everyone crashes every now and then, but no need to continually do it. Like was said above they will all break sooner than later if you continue to pound them in the ground.
I would advise you continue to practice on your current kite as its ready damaged. Then when your skills get better get a new kite as you will not abuse it as much.

loftywinds - 14-9-2013 at 12:39 AM

I am surprised no one mentioned the Ozone Octane 4m. I know it's a FB kite, but she is tough!

3shot - 14-9-2013 at 06:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by loftywinds  
I am surprised no one mentioned the Ozone Octane 4m. I know it's a FB kite, but she is tough!

Agreed. Octanes are a tuff all purpose kite IMHO.
Maybe not the best at one particular style of traction, But well rounded enough to cover most bases.

canuck - 14-9-2013 at 10:15 AM

Further to Dino's suggestion of a NASA wing Paraskiflex is another single skin kite. However the rods on the leading edge might not take too many crashes.

Bladerunner - 14-9-2013 at 10:28 AM

It sounds to me like you are too busy trying to fly the kite and not thinking about controlling it ? Most beginners do this. Try going about it the complete opposite.

Here is the thing you are missing. We don't just fly the kite all over. We try and avoid the power zone and only go into it for a purpose . Gaining power. Speed equals power and so we try and control the speed that we send the kite into the power zone. We don't just send it through and then react.

Next time out work less on sending the kite from here to there and more on controlling it. Start off with the kite up high !!!!!!!! . Practice figure 8s up top . Work at STAYING OUT of the power zone. Practice taking the kite up and down the edge of the wind window. Anytime you get into trouble take the kite to the edge. Settle things down and start again.

Once you are doing a good job up top start adding brake input and doing brake turns. Notice how both brakes will stall the speed and eventually back the kite down.

If conditions are right and you have good brake control fly through the power zone with front lines only and feel the pull = power. Then try it with the brake slowing the kite. Less speed = less power.

Unless you actually enjoy the feeling and sound of a kite nearly blowing up on impact I suggest that most kites mentioned are supposed to be tough enough to handle a beating ? Nasa wing being the answer to no more blown cells .

It isn't easy figuring stuff out on your own. Lean on us for help. Folks here really do want you to enjoy this sport.

John Holgate - 14-9-2013 at 03:12 PM

It was a very light wind session, but speaking of flying Nasa wings nose first into the ground....... and even though I wasn't flying this in four line mode (you can), it was easy to step back and get the kite to fly up backwards.

kitemaker4 - 15-9-2013 at 10:54 AM

I have yet messed up a nasa wing after flying them for years. Just a my story and I am sticking to it.

Susan (npw goddess)

rectifier - 15-9-2013 at 03:22 PM

Bladerunner's flying advice is very good.

Yeah really, if you crash that often, get a NPW...
I built a 1 meter almost 10 years ago and it has received countless crashes into sand, grass, brush, trees, salt water you name it.
I was out flying it today in some crazy high winds, and I crashed it again several times because I fly it like a stunt kite. Just like always, it bounces off the ground. Still looks like it did when I made it, out of a tent that was already 20 years old.

An indestructible, twitchy little kite like that can make you a better flyer, too. I like to take it for fast dives from the top of the window and try to pull out with the lower wing skimming the ground. Or race down to the ground and then stall on the brakes and tap the nose on the grass! In a good wind that dive can be all of 1/2 second with a small kite so it sure hones the reflexes. And if you are too slow - WHAM! but it's OK.

RonH - 15-9-2013 at 06:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Scudley  
Sorry guys, I have to disagree about all kites not taking many boofs. GP kiters have watched old Carl boof his kites time after time day after day. He has two kites, SC Reflex 3m and Ozone Rage(?what ever replaced the Samurai) 4.5m. They have lasted five years of the worst flying "skills(?)" I have ever seen. Some kites seem to a hit a lot better than others.
S


Well sort of...

By the time Carl's kite is nose down into the ground, Carl is doing the same thing, taking the pressure off the impact of the kite:o:o:o

Ron

Ron

dangerdan - 22-11-2013 at 07:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
It sounds to me like you are too busy trying to fly the kite and not thinking about controlling it ? Most beginners do this. Try going about it the complete opposite.

Here is the thing you are missing. We don't just fly the kite all over. We try and avoid the power zone and only go into it for a purpose . Gaining power. Speed equals power and so we try and control the speed that we send the kite into the power zone. We don't just send it through and then react.

Next time out work less on sending the kite from here to there and more on controlling it. Start off with the kite up high !!!!!!!! . Practice figure 8s up top . Work at STAYING OUT of the power zone. Practice taking the kite up and down the edge of the wind window. Anytime you get into trouble take the kite to the edge. Settle things down and start again.

Once you are doing a good job up top start adding brake input and doing brake turns. Notice how both brakes will stall the speed and eventually back the kite down.

If conditions are right and you have good brake control fly through the power zone with front lines only and feel the pull = power. Then try it with the brake slowing the kite. Less speed = less power.

Unless you actually enjoy the feeling and sound of a kite nearly blowing up on impact I suggest that most kites mentioned are supposed to be tough enough to handle a beating ? Nasa wing being the answer to no more blown cells .

It isn't easy figuring stuff out on your own. Lean on us for help. Folks here really do want you to enjoy this sport.


The following are done with my Beamer 2M-4Line kite.

1- Figure 8's and sliding the kite left to right and right to left up high are no problem now.
2- In fact I can complete 3 full circles then reverse the kite and complete another 3 circles in the opposite direction to untwist the line.
3- Pulling out of a dive by slamming on the brakes, then spinning the kite to an upright position and holding it there is also no problem. Even if I can't recover from the dive I have minimized its impact with the ground.
4- This one I am having problems with. Practice taking the kite up and down the edge of the wind window. Coming down is easy but going up is not happening. The kite just stalls. Its possible I'm to far down the edge. As soon as the weather allows, I'll try going further up on the edge.

markite - 22-11-2013 at 07:42 PM

A few of us are thinking of going to Wasaga tomorrow to buggy. Going to be cold, probably a bit wet, good chance of snow squalls later day but might be one of the last chances for a good buggy day before winter. Probably be a small kite day. Drop me a u2u if you ever want to get out and fly. Come up to puslinch lake this winter on the east side of Cambridge, only 35 - 40 min drive from Hamilton!
I can show you the answers to your questions anytime.
Mark

rectifier - 22-11-2013 at 07:51 PM

If you are heading down the edge of the window with the nose down, you are in trouble. You will have to turn back into the window or you will stall on the up turn.
Try going from apex to the edge of the window and "slide" the kite down the edge. Keep the nose above horizontal. You will have to work the brakes. You are in a controlled stall generating little power. If you overfly the edge then you will be in full stall.
You should be able to slide back up to apex and down the other side without ever pointing the nose down. This is how "park and riding" works - kite at the edge of the window, stable and pulling in that direction, apparent wind prevents stall and keeps you moving.

Sounds like you are making progress! With respect to indestructability of NPWs, I was riding in a canola field in a gale yesterday with my 2.6m Tyvek NPW - no damage despite skimming the frozen canola stubble pretty hard :thumbup: don't try this at home!

MDK - 22-11-2013 at 10:55 PM

PKD Buster. my demo Buster has taken a beating, many have learned to fly with it and it is still in one piece! and you cant beat the price. I paid too much for my sons Beamer to let anyone learn on it.

Bladerunner - 23-11-2013 at 11:14 AM

The goal in the " take the kite down each side of the window " is to teach you a few things.
That the kite should sit quietly at the edge just like it does up at zenith - 12 on the clock . It will sit nicely from just above the ground to any point along the clock.

That the kite has a definite max' that it can fly into the wind. Too far and it will stall.

To work the kite up and down the edge you have to use finesse / wiggle it keeping the nose facing into the wind and playing with the brake so it doesn't overfly .

Notice how you can put the kite into a low pull situation at any point along the windows edge. You do not have to send the kite to the top to find minimal pull and doing so is somewhat unsafe.

Keep it up !

dangerdan - 23-11-2013 at 11:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by markite  
A few of us are thinking of going to Wasaga tomorrow to buggy. Going to be cold, probably a bit wet, good chance of snow squalls later day but might be one of the last chances for a good buggy day before winter. Probably be a small kite day. Drop me a u2u if you ever want to get out and fly. Come up to puslinch lake this winter on the east side of Cambridge, only 35 - 40 min drive from Hamilton!
I can show you the answers to your questions anytime.
Mark


Too late for Wasaga now. To bad I did not see this earlier. Pushlinch is not to far.

Thanks Mark

markite - 23-11-2013 at 12:07 PM

we didn't go, a buddy in wasaga called to say you couldn't see more than 20 feet in the snow coming through earlier and latest post was water being pushed all the way and across the beach to the snow fence (at least 150 ft from shore).
But we are hoping tomorrow (sunday) will be a better day to go - some guys were also not liking the high gusty winds for today

bobsalinas - 23-11-2013 at 01:19 PM

I witnessed a guy crash and tear up a beamer.
It came apart so bad it had me wondering about the quality of thread they use to build
these kites.
I've crashed all my FB kites dozens of times and no damage but I do not own any beamers.

KAZEDOKA - 24-11-2013 at 11:43 AM

Bob, I must refresh your memory. The Beamer had prior terminal damage to skin and seam from a tree. The kiter tried a home repair with inferior tape came out to ride and of course his repair failed. Just sayin.