Power Kite Forum

Flysurfer bar modifications - suggestions sought

loftywinds - 1-10-2013 at 06:46 PM

I have a Pyscho III 8m with its standard bar setup. The middle power lines always get tangled around each other and this "grabs" onto the 5th depower line, so all three start looking like a snake threesome!
I was wondering if there is a pivoting system (a ball with a welded ring for example) that I could replace the connectors at the bar end to allow the lines to be kept separate and un-tangled? Any suggestions on this? Thanks

Kamikuza - 2-10-2013 at 03:19 AM

What version bar do you have?

PHREERIDER - 2-10-2013 at 05:23 AM

swivel systems can be added that help control or reduce the twisting issues. some are nice and effortless but time and wear reduce there effectiveness.

there are alot of choices, knowledge and experience help with discernment ...my advice keep it simple

erratic winds - 2-10-2013 at 07:15 AM

Best bet would be just buying Infinity 2.0 bar and it will solve this with it's bearing equipped pivot.

loftywinds - 4-10-2013 at 09:20 PM

Thanks Erratic. But as a wise man once said - "if they can build it, so can I".

:D

erratic winds - 4-10-2013 at 09:24 PM

Ah, then I would look at the parts bin online from the various kite manufacturers. I think the slingshot "center of the universe" swivel could maybe meet your needs...

powerzone - 6-10-2013 at 05:13 PM

several folks use the ironheart loops that have below-the -bar swiveling. then the only thing to change is the loop and the rest of the barsetup remains the same.

elnica - 7-10-2013 at 10:23 AM

mutiny swivel is good too.

Proletariat - 7-10-2013 at 09:30 PM

That's what I did for my FLS Pulse 2. Still waiting for the FDS conversion to make the switch, but the bar, swivel, release, etc are all super dreamy!

I also have an 8m Psycho III FDS and I actually don't have tangle problems (assuming I keep the looping and bar-spinning to a reasonable level). Of course, now that you mention it, I do sort of keep mental track of how many times I need to loop back the other way to keep things moving with the safety. I guess I kinda try to keep it under 7 (which is when it starts to look ugly) and have certainly released fine at anything under 5.

Anyway, get the bar :). I've seen / used some of the swivels out there and they always make me nervous. The bar does not. U2U me if you need contact info for the US Flysurfer guy I bought mine from. He was cheaper than everyone else and incredibly nice, but not very responsive (still waiting on that FDS).

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds  
Best bet would be just buying Infinity 2.0 bar and it will solve this with it's bearing equipped pivot.

loftywinds - 7-10-2013 at 09:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by powerzone  
several folks use the ironheart loops that have below-the -bar swiveling. then the only thing to change is the loop and the rest of the barsetup remains the same.


???

An illustration please? I am new to mods. Thanks

loftywinds - 7-10-2013 at 09:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Proletariat  
That's what I did for my FLS Pulse 2. Still waiting for the FDS conversion to make the switch, but the bar, swivel, release, etc are all super dreamy!

I also have an 8m Psycho III FDS and I actually don't have tangle problems (assuming I keep the looping and bar-spinning to a reasonable level). Of course, now that you mention it, I do sort of keep mental track of how many times I need to loop back the other way to keep things moving with the safety. I guess I kinda try to keep it under 7 (which is when it starts to look ugly) and have certainly released fine at anything under 5.

Anyway, get the bar :). I've seen / used some of the swivels out there and they always make me nervous. The bar does not. U2U me if you need contact info for the US Flysurfer guy I bought mine from. He was cheaper than everyone else and incredibly nice, but not very responsive (still waiting on that FDS).

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds  
Best bet would be just buying Infinity 2.0 bar and it will solve this with it's bearing equipped pivot.



Hmm thanks for the suggestions. I'll look out for the Infinity bar then, but where, how much and what's the big difference?

Kamikuza - 8-10-2013 at 06:40 AM

Exactly what are you planning to do with what and to what end? Then we can make suggestions...

loftywinds - 9-10-2013 at 08:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza  
Exactly what are you planning to do with what and to what end? Then we can make suggestions...


Hmm I thought I was clear at the top of the thread.

I want to remove the existing brake-lines from the bar being fixed to the trim adjuster, where they are tied into a knot (factory default). The lines twist easily and I want to replace the ring with the knots, with a swivel of some kind that allows the lines to un-twist themselves under load. The newer LEI kites I have, have this ability and keep all lines separate and tangle free.

Do you need a diagram?

Kamikuza - 10-10-2013 at 04:47 AM

Uh-oh...

The center or front or flying lines are attached to the Black Rope that's connected to the trim strap that's connected to the depower line.
Your rear or steering lines are connected to the steering leaders at either end of the bar.

I can't remember for sure, but I'm almost certain that the Psycho3 does not have the Infinity bar. So it'll be a single depower line going to that god-awful pin-pull release CL... unless you've got something totally non-OEM!!!

On to the modding... assuming you have a regular FSer bar.

• Mutiny-type swivel will not work - they're designed to have a trim rope roll through the pulley at the bottom of them = not going to work without heavy modding.
• Above-the-bar swivels... don't. They *usually* work to untwist the lines above the swivel, but you're left with twists below. Any suitable swivel I can think of will require modding the Black Rope to make it work.
• Below-the-bar swivels... this is the direction most of the companies are moving now. But the QR is either double depower line or a covered tube...

Cheapest option - buy the old Ozone Megatron QR and be done with it.
Good option - buy an Infinity bar and QR.

There's always going to be a certain amount of tangling... so long as it doesn't impinge on the operation of the safety, it should be fine - don't worry about the aesthetics.

Kamikuza - 10-10-2013 at 04:57 AM

Your QR at the top?



Close-up...



A modded FSer bar with Megatron on the far left...

loftywinds - 11-10-2013 at 08:19 PM

Awesome pics Kami. I envy your collection.
So the first pic shows the bar I have on the top. The one at the bottom looks like an Ozone bar? Not sure on that one. But yes my QR is the top one.
The lines I am talking about getting twisted are above the bar and above the adjustor straps. They are tied together to the adjustor ring. I would like to replace the ring with a swivel system that keeps the lines tangle free to be able to keep the 5th depower line free. I guess it's not really possible?
Surely someone here with a Psycho III 2011 model knows what I am talking about.

Kamikuza - 11-10-2013 at 08:25 PM

All of those bars have been sold :D

Bottom pic, from L to R - Flysurfer Speed2/Psycho3 bar, Switch bar, Peter Lynn Navigator first gen.

Adjuster ring...? Can you post a pic?

loftywinds - 15-10-2013 at 05:07 PM

Ok. Here is what I am talking about... sorry for the lack of information before.



Can this "swivel" setup be done on a Psycho III kite bar? I just need to find one and try it.

My bar is most likely an old bar before 2011. But it's the one above that Kami showed.

Thanks guys

Kamikuza - 15-10-2013 at 06:33 PM

Yes, but you'll have to mod a lot...

The pulley at the bottom of the pic... it's there so that you can trim with a cam cleat, either below the bar (OR Freeride bar) or above, like on the Switch bar. The commonality of the bars that use a pulley on a swivel is a double-rope depower line... which won't fit through the hole on your bar now.

If you mod it to work with the Flysurfer Black Rope, you'll have no need of the pulley... a better swivel would be the pre-2012 Cabrinha swivel

BUT

swivels only untwist the widest spread lines. The lines to the kite will be untwisted, but that twist will be transferred to the lines below it - you're right back where you're started.

Best option, without a doubt:
Infinity 2.0 bar & CL : E219
Infinity 1.0 bar & CL : E160
add a length of Amsteel for the depower rope, a thrust bearing for the Infinity1 CL, and keep all the rest of your bits.
Benefits are a CL that will unspin "automatically" and be an up-to-date, safe CL with low release forces. And it'll look OEM :D

Option that will work but will look ugly IMO:
Ozone Megatron CL and a Cabrinha swivel : ~$130
and mod the black rope, maybe.
http://www.inlandsea.com/p-623-cabrinha-replacement-swivel.a...
http://www.kitepower.com.au/ozone-megatron-chicken-loop.html

Cheapest option - learn how to do front- and back-rolls in both directions :D that's how I do it with my above-the-bar swivel bars...!

Flyfish - 15-10-2013 at 08:34 PM

Hey Kami,
I have two questions about the megaton set up you mention.
I have the megaton chicken loop on a bar that I bought used. It does not have the swivel attached to the center lines though.

I can't seem to manually spin (untwist) The lines using the handle above the chicken loop.

Is this because you need a swivel above the bar like the Cabrinha one?
Or, is there something that isn't spinning in the chicken loop on my Megatron?

Ps, I unspin by rolling both ways!

loftywinds - 16-10-2013 at 05:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza  
Yes, but you'll have to mod a lot...
...
...
Cheapest option - learn how to do front- and back-rolls in both directions :D that's how I do it with my above-the-bar swivel bars...!


I see.

So what is the name of the bar I have then? I thought it was an Infinity 1.0. What the heck is it?!

And your last comment. Yep... in about 7 more months!

andy666 - 17-10-2013 at 03:15 AM

You have a carbon bar.
Below is a picture of an infinity 1 bar.
A cheap option for you is to buy an infinity chicken loop and set your carbon bar up like the infinity bar. But because your bar doesn't have the divider in the hole in the bar, you could just run one line on the outside of the bar.
I'll also send you a PM about this.

Infinity 1 bar

Kamikuza - 17-10-2013 at 07:07 PM

Hole in the Carbon Bar isn't big enough to run a double depower line through... running a line over the outside sounds iffy :o

loftywinds - 17-10-2013 at 10:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by andy666  
You have a carbon bar.


Hi Andy,

Thanks for that. Now I know what I am dealing with. I noticed you have the actual swivel I want to buy, but do you think it could be attached to my carbon bar setup? Running the safety line on the outside is actually ok with me, as I have a Cabrinha 2007 kite that does exactly that and I think it actuall depowers the kite better than the modern LEI. Simple design and the kite flaps like a flag, relatively. With my 8mt Pyscho that would be ok too especially since it does not have an inflatable tube. However, the lines will most likely be a complete tangled mess though! The only other con is that if I QR over water and the kite is in water flapping on a single line, I would have to ditch the whole kite and swim to shore. Or simply wind up the line to the kite, roll it all up like a ball and try and swim to shore.
On land, no problem though and that's where I use the kite the most anyway - land kiting.
So I can replace my chicken loop with your one and how is that going to keep my centre power lines un-tangled?
You've got me very curious.
Thanks

loftywinds - 17-10-2013 at 11:03 PM

One thing I did not ask, stupid me.

Can the Psycho III work with most 4line leading edge bars? I have heaps of them, but no 5th line. I could attach the existing middle 5th line to my QR line on a LEI bar set up. Hmmm anyone tried?

Kamikuza - 18-10-2013 at 01:22 AM

... there's a really good reason that the lines don't run outside the bar any more and we kinda think that any bar system pre-2008 is crappy...

I really think you need to do a bit of research into how all these bars work, watch some videos etc - you're trying to re-invent the wheel without any understanding of basics... I'm not being rude, but until you know how and why things work, you're never going to run out of questions ;)

loftywinds - 19-10-2013 at 05:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza  
... there's a really good reason that the lines don't run outside the bar any more and we kinda think that any bar system pre-2008 is crappy...

I really think you need to do a bit of research into how all these bars work, watch some videos etc - you're trying to re-invent the wheel without any understanding of basics... I'm not being rude, but until you know how and why things work, you're never going to run out of questions ;)


Ahhh... I do know how depower, AOA, FB, 5th, etc work. Sorry but yeah I did take some offense to that huge assumption that "I don't know what I am talking about". Yes, I know outside line systems of depowering are crap, but they still work - well for me anyway. Put it this way, I am not afraid using them if I have to and making adjustments on my carbon bar just to remove the tangling of the power lines (what I am after here originally anyway), with a slight sacrifice to safety by putting the depower line along the outside is not a big deal. Like I said, we're not talking about LEI kites here, so the form factor is next to zilch when the kite is depowered via an outside line, but like I also said - the lines will be a tangled mess not to mention the possible damage to the kite itself through over twisting, wrapping around lines, etc. Besides, those events tend to happen more in 20knot plus winds, which I don't kite in anyway.

Horses for courses, but certainly not a "noob doesn't know what he wants" here! Maybe you don't know your suchi? :P

erratic winds - 19-10-2013 at 06:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by loftywinds  

Horses for courses, but certainly not a "noob doesn't know what he wants" here! Maybe you don't know your suchi? :P


We've already detailed several options for you to pursue.
I would suggest trying one of them and not insulting other users for pointing out that you're trying to re-invent the wheel.

Kamikuza - 19-10-2013 at 07:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by loftywinds  
Ahhh... I do know how depower, AOA, FB, 5th, etc work. Sorry but yeah I did take some offense to that huge assumption that "I don't know what I am talking about". Yes, I know outside line systems of depowering are crap, but they still work - well for me anyway. Put it this way, I am not afraid using them if I have to and making adjustments on my carbon bar just to remove the tangling of the power lines (what I am after here originally anyway), with a slight sacrifice to safety by putting the depower line along the outside is not a big deal. Like I said, we're not talking about LEI kites here, so the form factor is next to zilch when the kite is depowered via an outside line, but like I also said - the lines will be a tangled mess not to mention the possible damage to the kite itself through over twisting, wrapping around lines, etc. Besides, those events tend to happen more in 20knot plus winds, which I don't kite in anyway.

Horses for courses, but certainly not a "noob doesn't know what he wants" here! Maybe you don't know your suchi? :P

So your next step will be to start trying things out, and figure out what is and isn't a big deal.

Still not sure exactly what you mean by "tangling power lines"... and I don't know what "suchi" is.

andy666 - 20-10-2013 at 03:24 AM

This is getting out of hand. Everyone take a deep breath.

Firstly. Flysurfer call the load bearing line that runs through the bar, the depower silver line. The 5th line is call the safety.
If you look at the infinity bar it runs a double depower silver line and has a divider inside the hole in the bar. The carbon bar does not have this divider. So what I am suggesting is to run the infinity chicken loop and double depower silver line with the bar on bar, and run one half of the depower silver line on the outside of the carbon bar so that the bar itself becomes the divider.
It's not perfect, but better then nothing.

I would suggest learning more about how the infinity bar works, so that you can better understand what I am talking about.

(This is the video for the infinity 2 bar, but the original infinity bar works the same)

Kamikuza - 20-10-2013 at 07:07 PM

Yeah, but as the depower lines rub you'll hack up all the grip on the bar and catch your fingers in there :) There's a reason no companies use that system. Ever, probably.

The splitter in the Infinity 1 bar works fine but has a habit of breaking - the Inf2 bar is better as it's one-piece metal... but only 2 "holes" for 3 lines. The old Core bars have a hole for each line but tends to bind when cranking turns. You can mod the Inf 1 bar with 2 spreaders - which I've done - and it works sweet, combined with thrust bearing in the CL. Running that as a test on my Pscyho4 19 but so far, so good. More parts to break, fall out etc though.

No deep breaths needed :thumbup:

loftywinds - 22-10-2013 at 06:04 AM

All understood and clear.

I have left the set up as is, and simply (thank you to a local here who pointed it out), a turn of myself anti-clockwise (or the other way if need be) is all it take to remove the tangles. Voila!

Kamikuza - 22-10-2013 at 07:18 PM

Back roll, then front roll... the only time you don't have to do that is with below the bar swivels :thumbup:

loftywinds - 24-10-2013 at 08:44 PM

:thumbup: