Power Kite Forum - Which Depower kite is best with unlimited buget

Which Depower kite is best with unlimited buget

dangerdan - 25-1-2014 at 04:15 PM

Everyone keeps asking which depower kite is best if on a budget.
I'm going a different route where money is not an issue.

Lets assume the following:

Fairly competent with 4M FB kites.
Body weight 200 lbs.
Winds 5km to 20km
Sand Buggy or Ice sled use only.
This kite should have great pull but poor lift.
Handle well in gusty winds.
Would like to use the Ozone turbo bar - Not sure about this.

Can I get some input please.

carltb - 25-1-2014 at 04:35 PM

peter lynn lynx 11m http://peterlynn.com/products/snowkiting/lynx/

RedSky - 25-1-2014 at 05:24 PM

Wow!! How refreshing, an unlimited budget. First off I'd say that lift isn't going to cause you any problems when using depower, unless you want it. Great pull after all is horizontal lift.
I'd like to steer you away from depower foils even though it's a natural progression from FB. Trouble is your requested wind range is a little on the low side. One suggestion from me would be a low wind LEI, something like a 16m Cabrinha Crossbow LW

markite - 25-1-2014 at 05:42 PM

Best is always going to be very subjective. The one thing I learned many years ago in kiting (and it goes for some other things as well), what some consider as the best may not be well suited to everyone. Many times I see people asking the same question and wanting the fastest kite or buggy. The fastest will have design characteristics that make it fast - you need to reduce some stability factors of a tame kite to make it aggressive etc. what happens is some do not have the skills to make the best of the kite and it often ends up being frustrating. Then the other part is I see time and time agin people showing up with the best gear but their personal comfort level is far below the potential of that gear. They will not push their gear to the limit to see what it will do. Anything will get you fast, anything with little experience will seem like the best kite. You don't need to blow top dollar on what might be seen as the best. Work the hell out what you have until you know you want more than it's giving you.

Okay that being said there are a lot of good depowerable from many brands Peter Lynn, HQ, Ozone, flysurfer! Concept Air. I've got a lot of arcs and like a number of models for different reasons but some days I use the lynx, some days the Montana then a lot of LEIs as well.
I like my arcs but they are not for everyone - the 11 lynx would be a good steady grunty kite for you here in ontario. Then on days like the last two, with high winds and blowing snow, you would need a 7 or even 5 for most in the high winds today. I have some you can try out for those as well (lynx) when I see you.
pretty much all the brands have a good stable model with good response and performance. I don't think you want to go too high on the speed end of performance right now.

B-Roc - 25-1-2014 at 05:49 PM

Ozone access. Arcs too but I don know enough about them to recommend one over the other

Feyd - 25-1-2014 at 06:35 PM

Like Mark said. "Best" can depend on the rider and the conditions.

Fortunately it seems there are very few "bad" kites out there these days.

abkayak - 25-1-2014 at 08:19 PM

Buy/fly them all and let God figure it out

Bladerunner - 25-1-2014 at 08:44 PM

I think you are confused thinking you can buy a depower kite to match a Turbo bar. Turbo bars are designed for fixed bridle kites and probably wouldn't work anywhere near as well as the bar designed for the kite.

I don't know of a kite or size that I can use effectively in both 5 and 20mph winds although my 15m Synergy is close.

When I think of the most pricey kites ( read out of reach for my budget ) I think Flysurfer. In order to live up to your 5mph wind needs you get to spend extra and get the deluxe material. Making it even more spendy. So I would suggest you look at the Viron in deluxe material as my example of what may work at the highest cost to you. http://flysurfer.com/produkte/kites/viron/
Speed IV as an example of too much kite.

Like so many others have suggested there is a big difference between the most expensive kite possible and the best kite possible for each person's personal need.

MarS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s point about living up to the potential of your kite is a good one. When I owned my 13m Psycho III I was not fully enjoying the kite because my skills were not equal. I struggled greatly with timing my jumps on that kite. Put it in the hands of a much better pilot and the guy was floating like in my dreams ! I picked up my 15m Synergy , a less expensive kite and found my match. Progression happened much faster then ! So in my kite life it hasn't always been the most expensive kite that suited me best but the kite I could get the most out of.

I am blown away at how many folks around here buy a whole new quiver every single year ( on water ) and sell off their old one at a huge loss?

csa_deadon - 26-1-2014 at 02:44 AM

I think what everyone is trying to say here is this.

You need to go find some depowers (try dealer demo days, etc.) and fly them. The "Best" depower will be the one that you are most comfortable with.

Just because someone bought a $3000.00 depower doesn't make it the best. The kite is only as good as the pilot.

Having said that just look at my sig line. :lol:

dangerdan - 26-1-2014 at 09:11 AM

Thanks for all those great answers.

I can relate to this statement The kite is only as good as the pilot. I'm a average RC pilot and I like to fly my model airplanes in milder winds but there are some pilots at my club who are great flyers in faster winds.
So much to learn.
One day Mark we will connect and talk about my kiting skills.

PHREERIDER - 26-1-2014 at 06:18 PM

time makes pilots, everyone must pay in TIME and becoming pilot KNOWS skill matched gear is important ....i dont know many low hour pylon pilots? my rc pilot skills are fair but MORE TIME would change that!

there is unlimited to learn, be here now for it all and in time all will change

........and back to depower choices> ALL HAVE LIFT---the pilot controls that. hmmm

all have unique characteristics and pilot demands. the more you fly the better and more flying makes you more demanding as well

cool thread

BeamerBob - 26-1-2014 at 07:44 PM

I usually buggy with kites that the Mfrs claim have awesome lift but it's not something I ever notice or concern myself with. If you want the kite designer to do the work for you to keep your kite from lifting you then you might be missing out on the "best" kite for you. Put in some time with different kites and then you'll have your favorites all figured out. It probably won't be the first depower kite you buy either.

dangerdan - 27-1-2014 at 09:29 AM

2 questions

1- Is it worth while to buy a small depower kite to practice static flying ?
2- What size would be a good start ?

abkayak - 27-1-2014 at 09:54 AM

dont get off the boat unless your going all the way...get a kite that you will be happy with next year...imo

bigkid - 27-1-2014 at 10:03 AM

2 answers,

1, yes, no.
2, ?

Does that help?

as others have stated above, and as it seems to be a general question, and there is no answer that you probably don't want to hear, and many here don't want to say, is go take some lessons, talk with some people who have kites out at the beach face to face or go to an event and ask for information and a demonstration, and do a lot of reading here on the forum.

I am NOT trying to be a jerk, as I get phone calls with the same questionsthat are asked here on the forum. And after an hour of talking and answering and asking,they are no farther along than they were before the phone call started.

BeamerBob - 27-1-2014 at 11:26 AM

Medium sized depowers flown in the lower end of their wind range might be the best to learn with. I learned on a 9.5m HQ Montana and a 15m PL Phantom, both flown in the lightest of winds till I got a feel for them.

dangerdan - 27-1-2014 at 12:28 PM

Good answers. Ill hold off till the summer when its nice and warm

acampbell - 27-1-2014 at 01:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by dangerdan

2 questions

1- Is it worth while to buy a small depower kite to practice static flying ?
2- What size would be a good start ?

Surprised no one caught this.
1: no
That takes care of # 2.

Not trying to be glib but depower kites are not meant to fly static and in such a setting they will not display the properties you hear about. In fact they can do just the opposite, where when trying to navigate the window and you then pull on the bar for "more power" , the kite will often in fact stall and lose power. Then let the bar out "less power, right?", and the kite recovers, surges and develops lots of power. wTF you say? Backwards!

A depower kite needs to be in motion to behave as you hear about , and flying static, that only happens for the few moments that the kite passes through the belly of the window. Imagine jumping into a Maserati then driving around the parking lot in first gear; it won't drive like in the brochure.

So for your practice, get your kite and start out in lighter winds, but put you and the kite in motion.

Now just to be contrary, if you want to just learn to rig, launch and land the kite, there is nothing wrong with a static session, just heed the warning above.

Bladerunner - 27-1-2014 at 04:49 PM

Angus is bang on !

Getting a depower kite simply to static fly isn't money well spent. That said , if a ride is in your near future then getting familiar with the kite ahead of time isn't time wasted.

I actually prefer static jumping with depower but don't do it much ?

Exactly what were you planning on using the depower kite for ?

PHREERIDER - 27-1-2014 at 06:00 PM

this a dynamic sailing sport, apparent wind is most of the power.

for depower size choice,

if balancing sport atb, board, skates then 1m/10kg of body weight... as you progress will go to .8m/10kg body weight this gives a good start. and conditions would adjust from that start point up or down in kite size (a pilots judgement!). this ratio is based on projected area (meter squared) not total area so it is universal across brands/type. this is including vertical vector and use on the water.

if buggy then conditions would be primary factor in size choice, freestyle would be as balancing sports +buggy.

harnessed yet?

tridude - 27-1-2014 at 08:16 PM

Depowers require movement...............the true power on, off, and upwind characteristics can only be experienced while moving.........as Ken mentioned pendulum jumping can be fun.......

dangerdan - 28-1-2014 at 08:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

Angus is bang on !

Getting a depower kite simply to static fly isn't money well spent. That said , if a ride is in your near future then getting familiar with the kite ahead of time isn't time wasted.

I actually prefer static jumping with depower but don't do it much ?

Exactly what were you planning on using the depower kite for ?

Right now the plan was to get the feel of a depower kite and eventually get into buggies.

abkayak - 28-1-2014 at 10:37 AM

naaaah..right now get the feel of a buggy and eventually get into depower

RedSky - 29-1-2014 at 09:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by dangerdan

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

Right now the plan was to get the feel of a depower kite and eventually get into buggies.

Absolutely! Do what you want. Depower is great to fly static. Flying the kite one handed at the edge of the window is pretty cool, so is one handed loops. Go for it. Get a feel for depower.

dangerdan - 29-1-2014 at 04:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky

Quote: Originally posted by dangerdan

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

Right now the plan was to get the feel of a depower kite and eventually get into buggies.

Absolutely! Do what you want. Depower is great to fly static. Flying the kite one handed at the edge of the window is pretty cool, so is one handed loops. Go for it. Get a feel for depower.

Yahhhhhhhhh... That's what I wanted to hear . LOL

Bladerunner - 29-1-2014 at 04:49 PM

Getting a depower and getting used to it isn't a big mistake since you seem to really want to try / fly them. They are still fun to fly and as I mentioned I am much more comfortable static jumping with them.

1st step is to get a harness and start hooking in with the kites you have. Spend time thinking about how you take the power from the front lines into your core. Hold your handles bar like ( parallel ) and do turns only using the brake. Next apply both brakes evenly as you pass through the window. See how it slows ( almost stalls ) the kites speed. Try and think about how this is how your depower system will work, sort of. Flying with both brakes off is like having bar out and you are flying on front lines. Brake turn is like turning the bar. Both brakes even is like pulling the bar in.

Flying is fun but riding takes everything to a whole new level. I am not discouraging you from going depower . Only suggesting that getting moving will be much MUCH more valuable and fun .

matthew12 - 30-1-2014 at 06:24 AM

great, thanks for those information. Really help a lot...

grigorib - 30-1-2014 at 06:43 PM

Does 5km means 5km/h?

I see few parameters listed in the request pushing against each other, it'll be hard to find all of that in one kite. Getting an expensive gear will provide great quality for sure but flying characteristics might not match what you look for.
i.e.
- for your weight and low winds try to look for lightweight fabric and larger wing. Flysurfer Speed4 Lotus would be my choice
- a modern, large and light wing will have not only amazing pull but also good lift, but in depower it's your choice to lift or not, it's where it is different from FB, though see the next point
- a single skin kite like NPW or Flysurfer Peak might well fit the low wind, good pull and low lift parameters
- on ice you'd need a smaller kite, for sand you'll need a bigger one - you'll need to get two to be perfectly happy and then switch them depending on surface and wind speed or compromise taking in consideration your most often wind conditions you're riding
- speed4 would suppress gusts perfectly, I doubt Peak or NPW would be comparable in that regard
- keep the turbo bar for your FB setup, with a new kite you'll get a great bar you'd love

If I was in you situation I'd try out Flysurfer Peak 8m for 10 knot wind on ice or would rather look at 12-15m Flysurfer Speed4 for lower winds and sand. The closer you get to 2.7 knot wind the closer you should be to 18m wing but check what are prevailing winds first.

When you reach 19m size range there's new ozone chrono coming soon, spleene x19 is here and whole line of speed4 lotus kites. Those are bigger than some paragliders, be very cautious, rather think safety.

There must be plethora of open cell wings, possibly lighter and at cases more efficient but I'd leave them to others to present here

A great perspective to have, I must say :thumbup:

ssayre - 3-2-2014 at 04:18 PM

Quote:

1st step is to get a harness and start hooking in with the kites you have. Spend time thinking about how you take the power from the front lines into your core. Hold your handles bar like ( parallel ) and do turns only using the brake. Next apply both brakes evenly as you pass through the window. See how it slows ( almost stalls ) the kites speed. Try and think about how this is how your depower system will work, sort of. Flying with both brakes off is like having bar out and you are flying on front lines. Brake turn is like turning the bar. Both brakes even is like pulling the bar in.

@Bladerunner: I had read this a few days ago and I had just gotten my harness. That is good advice. The first time I used the harness (handles and strop) it felt very awkward because I was trying to fly as I normally would have without a harness. Today I used it a second time (static) and practiced the way you had mentioned. It was great, I had to re-train my flying habits a bit, but I felt like I was getting the hang of it. My strop seemed too short. It is about 16", is that about normal? After I got used to turning on the brakes more than normal it didn't seem to bother me as much. I flew static a lot longer than I ever had. Also, if anyone is looking at harnesses, the ozone sb harness is very comfortable and minimal. I can't speak as to how comfortable it is while jumping but otherwise it's great. I did have to retighten the straps occasionally.

Sorry for the hijack but the harness did come up in this thread and I had to chime in. Thanks for the info br.

Bladerunner - 3-2-2014 at 05:17 PM

I am just happy what I said made some sense. I don't think this is a hijack as much as assuring Dangerdan that there is something to my method .

I like standing beside somebody with a depower kite and showing them how those motions relate to working the bar. Then passing them the depower ! Getting good at brake control is a huge benefit down the rode as you start riding. Once your kite is set you can keep it in place with little to no push / pull.