Power Kite Forum - Recovery from lofting?

Recovery from lofting?

pongnut - 7-3-2014 at 02:45 PM

In light of flyguy's recent incident, I'd like to garner some feedback and education from the elders and those who have survived a lofting, so if/when it happens to me, I have a gameplan to get back to earth with as little damage as possible. Just looking for 2 or 3 fundamental actions that should be engrained into my brain, if/when I end up 20+ feet up, unplanned!

Suds after thuds - 7-3-2014 at 03:35 PM

Like you I have very limited experience, but have tried to be aware of this as much as I can. (I've also had some stupid fun playing with the F-arc 1600.):

I guess the first thing is to be familiar with the wind at your spot, and to recognize when it's too much wing for the breeze. However, the way Flyguy described his winds is pretty much my preferred sort of wind at with a 15m Charger at Tempelhof. And I think BigKid was flying a 3m race kite when he had his accident, so being dialed in about conditions is great, but it won't save you from the rogue gust, or when it suddenly picks up.

So from reading and watching videos what I've gathered is:
1. keep the kite overhead by redirecting
2. a Kiteloop can help decrease altitude and adds horizontal velocity
3. spot your landing and ride it out, or fall with a practiced technique
4. Hope the wind doesn't die, stalling the kite

After the TopHat and another fail there is a tutorial:

Bladerunner - 7-3-2014 at 06:04 PM

The thing that scares me about the kiteloop method is that I have pretty much no kiteloop experience. Only 1 and it was by accident.
I picture myself blowing the loop ( to the side rather than over head ) and slamming myself to the ground .

In the Flysurfer manual it says that in this situation you should relax and realize you have a paraglider overhead. To me that means redirect to keep it pointing into the wind ?

I dread this situation and so what I do is avoid jumping all together unless I feel conditions are just perfect. I think that is a good place to start ?

That rule makes it that I tend to only try jumping with my largest kites = largest canopy. I chicken out when winds are strong enough to justify my10m Syn and 7m Pulse etc.. Many would argue that those are the best winds to jump in so ...

Eric Eck was on old school gear . Still by staying calm he didn't get too busted up considering the height he hit. No kiiteloops required.

flyguy0101 - 7-3-2014 at 06:38 PM

Blade- I am with you I have done a couple of kite loops but they tend to make me soil my shorts so it's not something I would do in a crisis. Of course that's a given since I did not try one on Sunday the only thing I can say is if you want to jump be ready to try things on the fly because unfortunately that is the only way I know to learn and some time the trials have a "cost of admission". The video had the best suggestion try it over water or deep snow :thumbup:

and I would agree with carls comment keeping the board on can deflect a lot of energy
Glad to see the post was hoping I could learn some more tips as well
Scott

macboy - 7-3-2014 at 07:54 PM

When I got lofted in the thermal with the Psycho13 it all happened so fast I could hardly think of what I did or should have done. I did think enough to look up and keep the kite overhead but it still dropped me pretty stiffly as it overshot and went over the other side. I'm with your thought Bladerunner - just keep it above you and relax, it is a paraglider afterall......only it's harder than one would think to keep it overhead....

I learned to not keep the kite up there (I was lofted while standing still......). Lofted mid-jump? I'd have to try the old "keep it overhead plan" again and hope to not overshoot again.....scary stuff, but glad it's out of my system and most of the bow was absorbed in pride.

Still can hear RevPaul's son saying "Hey look, Kelly's flying!" as I looked down and him and paul side by side in the Windsailer.

RedSky - 7-3-2014 at 09:32 PM

I've never jumped more than 20ft so I'm out of my depth here but after seeing that video 'Suds after Thuds' posted and reading the YouTube comments it has me worried.

I see an experienced rider on a snowkiting holiday. He's throwing some kiteloops in a constant clean updraft, not because there's an emergency but because he can, again and again. Then he's decided to make a safety video from it.

From what I can tell, the kiteloops are halting his forward momentum and glide and gently lowering him down to the ground.
I'm sure that without the loops he would have otherwise continued to glide and lose altitude at the same rate. The illusion of maintaining altitude is a result of the ground falling away beneath him.

However I think there is something to be said for keeping fast airflow over the wing to slow your descent but only in the right conditions and while having lots of altitude to play with.

I personally wouldn't like to loop a lengthy foil kite in gusty inland wind at only 20 or so feet on level ground.

Remember too that in the video he is using an LEI which are stiff. You never have to worry about canopy collapse with an LEI and it's short and stubby compared to a Flysurfer so it loops fast. What is the looping time of a high performance 15m-19m foil ?

I'm not convinced that a loop at just 20ft is needed. I'd be inclined to keep the kite pointing into the wind and directly above me.

Obviously it's better to avoid gusty weather to begin with. A rouge gust can come at any time however and maybe there's a lot to be said for using more square metres of depowered ripstop inland.

Proletariat - 7-3-2014 at 10:43 PM

Redirect.

For two reasons. First, to keep the kite overhead. Second, to keep air moving over the foil, lines taught and lift happening.

Unfortunately, redirect doesn't work all the time. If the wing is too small, you just drop (4m Pulse, for instance). If you accidentally redirect too early or late, your ability to turn just goes away. In my case, and probably in Scott's, the wind just wasn't there, so you just sort of ... fall.

However, I have a theory that ties in with the kiteloop idea... When I was taking tips at JIBE, either PHREE or Scott was yelling for me to FLY THAT KITE! FLY IT! Took me a while to figure out what they were talking about, but finally realized that, if the kite is moving and your lines are taut, you have precise control over the amount of pull & lift. If not, well, no wonder I kept falling off the board.

So my incredibly unproven theory is this... if you get OMFGlofted, you just keep that kite moving any way you can. Don't try to be delicate and graceful and careful... You treat it like a pig, and force it to keep moving. If it tries to stop, you slam that bar back towards you, push it the other way and lean back until it gets moving again.

Anyway, that's my new theory mostly born out of anger at a dumb kite that has the audacity to try to loft me and/or my friends. Dunno if it'd work, but I haven't had much luck with the graceful redirect + pray model.

Proletariat - 7-3-2014 at 10:46 PM

um, in other words... embrace the panic and take it out on the kite. Also, curse every single time you redirect. The fouler, the better.

bigkid - 8-3-2014 at 05:03 AM

Not to throw a wrench into any of this or say its totally off base, but you have to start at the beginning.
Why did you get lofted in the first place?
Second is were you air born before the loft?

Not to take away from the guys who live to get big air or the ones who only want more speed, but you cant create what isnt there.
No doubt Scott will spend more time than most rethinking and analyzing his infamous trip to the ER, he will not be able to change it.
Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda........... fact is he didnt.
All the others that have made the trip have rolled the dice and ended up with snake eyes or a chance to role the dice again.
Its easy to say what I would have done because I'm a legion in my own mind, truth be told, I wasnt there....I dont know what would have been better or not in what was or was not done.

I have spent YEARS thinking what if, if I, should have, and on and on and on. It changes nothing. Millions of skydivers practice landing, millions of gymnasts practice tuck and role landings, and they role snake eyes from time to time. You cant really believe a kite flyer can master EVERY LANDING, can you? Can you prepare for the worst and defeat it when it arrives?

Please dont think I know it all, cause I dont. But I do know that the ER is the only reason that flyguy, heliboy, bigkid and a few others are still alive. Each one did what they could and they ended up a bit short. Others have not returned to answer the questions they died with.

This type of thing will never happen to me.......
I will do it different........
I know what I'm doing.....
Of course you know what kind of flowers you want at your funeral, right?

Back to my point. The gust is what removed you from the ground. The lull is the wrong term, its call the wind you were flying in the first place. There is no lull, its just the gust ended and returned you back to the wind that was present befor the gust.
You have to start with the current wind speed. Were you on the upper edge of the envelope before the gust or working the heck out of the kite to get more than the wind was able to give?
Now you decide if your emergency plan can work. Talk to a parachute company and see what the criteria is for falling. I think of all the people who failed or died trying to fly like a bird back in the day of the Wright Brothers, by the way, we still CANNOT fly like a bird.

This is an extreme sport, if you have not been hurt yet, quit while your ahead. If you keep flying, its only a matter of time.
Dont stop trying to be safe, dont stop thinking of a better way, dont stop thinking about what if.
Think, listen to that small voice, learn to be a real man and walk away if things are not right, live to play another day.
This is just my drug induced, pain management, been there done that not doing it again, forever more "sucky life" that wishes at times to check out, responce.

flyguy0101 - 8-3-2014 at 07:25 AM

I think Jeff is having a bad day.......but I do think he is on to something and that is wind is Mother Nature and invisible so if you are playing in gusty winds. Your chance for a "bad day" just increased. This idea of what can I do to prepare for it- constantly push your limits as to what you can do. The more "unusual" experiences the better the outcome when you see it again. Here's what I will try differently the next time ( no I won't go looking for it) I will keep feet on the board and if I start free falling again I will try to use the kite to generate horizontal pull so I can land with forward momentum- ideally with wheels under my feet and not my face leading the way.

@dave- that is one of my favorite sayings you gotta fly the kite if you are not flying it it is flying you

@everyone if you have been hammered by your kite then you have had an unusual experience in the beginning it was because as noobies we did not know better as experienced pilots it's because we just had not "learned" that one yet happy flying and tight lines

Scott

erratic winds - 8-3-2014 at 09:42 AM

For me, this is a situation where all those Figure 8 loops I flew on a trainer come into play, and all the time flying sine waves to move along, and what my instructor told me when I began, hands towards center of bar(smaller input when you're excited and prone to yanking it), kite above you, work the kite back and forth mostly above you, slightly more in the direction you'd like to travel, say 10-1 or 11-2. Ideally, you would work it once or twice in one direction, then back the other way to kill some momentum, and repeat. Board on as long as possible, point it downwind of direction of movement for impact, maybe get lucky and ride away. Like others have said, you have to be sure the kite is flying as a lifting wing in some upward direction to reduce your downward momentum.

On flat land like lake-snow/beach you have a good chance of not having the time to loop it, or to loop it the right direction when you're under pressure, or know how to handle the new directional velocity if you do successfully hang it out like a fishing pole and loop it like a pro.

Always try to keep the kite above you, I think those of us that have been up and up a bit know the problem moment is realizing your kite is not in the position to provide lift because you can see it at say 9 or 3 and headed down and you feel level with it...

Know that going out in gusty conditions is not the best idea for kiting of any kind, especially on land, and be very careful in such conditions. It might be barely flyable gusting to woo-hoo! but one of the gusts you're having fun in can easily be the woo-ho-woahohno-nope-nope gusts that is the sort that can leave you lifted, surprised, and with no momentum in the right directions with the wing to slow you. I've had a number of them, and been lucky to get off without ER visits on a few of them. All the armor possible will help you in any situation, but there are some situations that it won't help at all.

Proletariat - 8-3-2014 at 09:50 AM

Jesus, Jeff. Now I just sort of wanna go hang out in a corner in the fetal position and rock back and forth.

Let's just go ahead and say what's *really* on your mind -- that is... "if any of you lofted bastards had been riding a flexboardz, you'd still be on the ground."

bigkid - 8-3-2014 at 01:24 PM

Flexboard or rockin back and forth or going out in hurricane force winds wont change a thing. Those who are invincible will remain that way untill the end.:D
Bad day? Just another day like yesterday and tomorrow. Nothing like it was prior to 11:30 am June 10 2010, life will never be the same.

All I am saying is that in order to solve the landing issue you have to know why you got lofted, what the degree of wind was before and after. The biggest key is were you on the verge of to much kite or not enough kite.
To redirect, helicopter, or what ever you do with the kite will achieve greater success if you are powered up or flying too big a kite for the conditions prior to the gust.
To redirect, helicopter, or what ever you do with the kite wont achieve any success if you dont have the power because the kite is too small.

I have to admit that if you are pushing the envelope, going balls out, over powered, being crazy, gives you a step up on those that are cautious, because you are mentally on the edge expecting success or disaster. There is more to it but in a nut shell this is it.

Kamikuza - 8-3-2014 at 01:50 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

To redirect, helicopter, or what ever you do with the kite wont achieve any success if you dont have the power because the kite is too small.

That's inaccurate. You may not touch down like a feather, but a bump is better than a bash.

bigkid - 8-3-2014 at 11:45 PM

Kami, your right. My statement is in comparison of one to the other.

After my enlightenment with the beach and with a lot of thought along with many other factors, I fly at the top of the envelope, maxed out, way overpowered, on the verge of disaster. I have found that when flying at that point, many things come into play that normally wouldnt be there if I had to work the heck out of the kite to get any place.
1, I expect to wipeout.
2, I am anticipating the unknown.
3, I am pushing my abilities.
4, I know doing all the above will increase my percentage of an OBE to 100%
5, Because I use my AQR I will not have an OBE.

If my AQR was not part of the equation my kite would have more float to allow me to ride it out rather than fall.
The way I fly isnt for everyone but works well for me. The way the wind blows and our relationship to it will not change untill we understand how to change the rules.
I changed the rules with my AQR and being very aggressive in my riding style. The day I was hurt I was not aggressive at all.

Not to say I push all the time, I do like to just go for a simple ride and enjoy the people, the sights, the ride, at which time I am armstrong flying and not hooked in.

Proletariat - 9-3-2014 at 01:42 PM

This guy has it dialed in. This is how you catch wicked giant air with a tiny kite and redirect to safety.

Proletariat - 9-3-2014 at 01:55 PM

Also, check BigE's lofting thread:
http://forum.kitecrowd.com/kite-landboarding/what-should-i-h...

Clive - 9-3-2014 at 02:09 PM

I'm fortunate enough never to have been lofted, safety does concern me hence I wear body armor etc ( im solely a buggy person) , I'm reading and taking note of pointing the kite into the wind once one is up there, i think though for me to practice such looping techniques one needs to be a kitesurfer, at least if you botch it a 25ft fall into water might sting but its unlikely to break your back. I cant say i want to practice such things on land, at least not initially.
But I'm hoping to avoid the whole lofting altogether. (famous last words possibly)
For those that have been lofted, I'm curious as to the variation of wind you experienced, what you where doing with the kite when it happened, was it a direct uplift wind or was it a function of kite in wrong place when it hit, any details that give me an understanding of what to try to avoid, and can you actually get lofted if you're in the park and ride position beside you, or are you just dragged sideways ridiculously.

carltb - 9-3-2014 at 06:09 PM

one thing to add to this thread is don't choke your kite. if you freeze and lock up with your bar pulled in, all youre going to do is stall your kite.
a kite is not a parachute and just keeping it above your head isn't going to float you to the ground. just like a plane wing doesn't work unless its moving.
so, if you get lofted straight up from a standing position then your first move should be to steer the kite to the side so that you can redirect when you start to descend
if you get lofted mid jump then you will already have some forward momentum, so keeping the kite above you is ok . redirect when you start to descend just like a normal jump , but the trick is knowing how hard to redirect. if the gust has created a hole in the wind then you need to redirect really hard to keep the air flowing over the kite

Bladerunner - 9-3-2014 at 06:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by carltb

one thing to add to this thread is don't choke your kite. if you freeze and lock up with your bar pulled in, all youre going to do is stall your kite.
a kite is not a parachute and just keeping it above your head isn't going to float you to the ground. just like a plane wing doesn't work unless its moving.
so, if you get lofted straight up from a standing position then your first move should be to steer the kite to the side so that you can redirect when you start to descend
if you get lofted mid jump then you will already have some forward momentum, so keeping the kite above you is ok . redirect when you start to descend just like a normal jump , but the trick is knowing how hard to redirect. if the gust has created a hole in the wind then you need to redirect really hard to keep the air flowing over the kite

Very well described in a simple way Carl !

I know my tendency is / would be to choke the kite with bar in. Even though my brain knows better.

jimbocz - 10-3-2014 at 04:58 AM

I think the wises post here is from Suds after thuds who makes the crucial point: Don't get lofted in the first place.

I make a point of this when I fly, and usually fly much less powered than everybody else and generally fly like your grandmother would. That's the choice I make to stay safe because I don't want to be hurt. Everybody has to make their own choices about risk, but you certainly can choose for kiting to NOT be an extreme sport if you want it to be.

I pay attention to the wind and choose the appropriate kite size for the gusts. I try to pay attention to the conditions as they change and either change kite or stop flying as needed. I resist the urge to put up as big a kite as everybody else and recognize that their priorities may not be the same as mine and just don't worry what they think.

Not very extreme, but this approach has worked over the years to keep me uninjured.

carltb - 10-3-2014 at 06:10 AM

@jimbocz were I respect what you say and your caution, with experience, you can handle different conditions. if you cant handle the wind for a particular day ,then don't fly. personally, your extreme kiting is my everyday session, but I didn't get this experience over night and I don't really take a lot of chances.

I think, part of every training course should include a crash session and the safest way to fall and I think that is what this thread is geared towards

flyguy0101 - 10-3-2014 at 06:30 AM

Carl- thanks for your insight, knowing that i had redirected the kite several times i think you have hit upon the reason i did not continue to redirect on my way down.- I have little doubt in my mind that i was surely choking the kite and the initially redirects worked because the wind was still in its "strong" gust and the point the gust died i was smoothering the kite. At least now in my mind i know my mistake- thanks
Scott

Kamikuza - 10-3-2014 at 09:19 PM

Being on the land is a different matter - I think bigkid is bonkers :D with the fixed-bridle kites, I prefer to be perfectly powered or just-underpowered... on the water, over-powered is fine depending on the harness.

When we get enough wind to ride a 7m, odds are good that even though you go up nicely, you're likely to get dropped on the way down as the gust dies... splash-downs are much less of an issue though!

jimbocz - 11-3-2014 at 06:53 AM

@Carltb: Looks like we are agreement, all I was saying was that I don't really take a lot of chances either.

bigkid - 11-3-2014 at 07:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza

- I think bigkid is bonkers :D

thanks kami, your such a sweetheart. Need a hug?:P :lol:

BeamerBob - 11-3-2014 at 09:35 AM

Most of us have that "little voice" in our head but not everyone listens to it (no offense intended to anyone in particular). I've had many days (today for instance) that the wind forecast is just too nasty to want to take part in. I've also had days I've already loaded up, driven down to Ivanpah and have ridden 5 miles and decide that it is smarter to cash in my chips and go home healthy with no broken body parts or equipment. If I am not sure I have control of my kite, I'm never too proud to pack it in. I still get surprised at times but I usually have the advantage of the stabilizing factor of apparent wind in my favor. Landboarders mostly and static jumpers only have the ambient wind to work with and it can come strong or go away without notice.

carltb - 11-3-2014 at 10:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jimbocz

@Carltb: Looks like we are agreement, all I was saying was that I don't really take a lot of chances either.

yea fly within your experience and don't take chances, but also know what to do when it goes tits up, (cos it will!!!)

jgorm - 14-3-2014 at 07:29 AM

I would like some advice from you guys. I fly 'static' with a 5.5M twister. I'll catch 3-5' of air on a pendulum jump. I've seen a couple videos of guys getting lofted pretty high on similar kites. I never feel like it's going to loft me. I fly at a park across the street from the beach so the winds never get too gusty. I've been overpowered when it's windy, but I don't send the kite very hard at all during those times. Is there something that I should be looking out for?

flyguy0101 - 14-3-2014 at 07:38 AM

@jgorm- dude you are opening a can of worms with that question- I think the main thing to watch out for would be gusty winds, and since you mentioned a beach i am guessing that your winds are not that gusty or at least on gusty days you dont fly. As for how you feel- beware, i dont know too many guys that felt the kite was going to loft them. My only advice would be dont jump when gusty or really overpowered. Personally i would never try to jump with a kite that small unless i was screwing around and thats usually when I get hurt:D . As for looking out watch for the simple things like a storm coming in, the trees are going in circles form the wind vs a clean bending. Have fun, i personally am looking forward to "flying" again but will change my landing approach:o

BeamerBob - 14-3-2014 at 09:11 AM

I've jumped hundreds of times with HQ Crossfire 5m kites. I'm 230 lbs and it always plucked me off the ground and floated me down gently but usually in the 2-5' range. I've done the same with my Blade IV and V 6.5m, but the lift is stronger, and the float is better with the extra canopy, usually 2-6' but went up over 12' once in some stronger winds. The 6.5 doesn't need as much wind for the fun to start. 5m is usually considered the smallest size an adult should use for jumping.

jgorm - 14-3-2014 at 10:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

I've jumped hundreds of times with HQ Crossfire 5m kites. I'm 230 lbs and it always plucked me off the ground and floated me down gently but usually in the 2-5' range. I've done the same with my Blade IV and V 6.5m, but the lift is stronger, and the float is better with the extra canopy, usually 2-6' but went up over 12' once in some stronger winds. The 6.5 doesn't need as much wind for the fun to start. 5m is usually considered the smallest size an adult should use for jumping.

Can I use this as justification to my wife to pick up the 7M twister :smilegrin: