Power Kite Forum

PL Arc or HQ Neo Series

burdman111 - 29-5-2014 at 04:57 PM

I've been hunting for a good depower kite recently and after some research I've landed on the PL arcs (any of them really) or the HQ Neo's. Im pretty light and the wind here is pretty average so I'm looking for something in the ~10 meter range (a little larger or smaller is ok, preferably smaller). If anyone has anything please let me know.

Bladerunner - 29-5-2014 at 08:06 PM

You do know that a 10m Arc and a 10m Neo have a completely different wind range / projected area ?

Completely different animals !

What are you flying now ?

burdman111 - 29-5-2014 at 08:08 PM

Shoot. I did not. I'm looking for a ~10m arc. What size Neo would have about the same pull?
Thanks for pointing that out before I did something stupid.

burdman111 - 29-5-2014 at 08:10 PM

Shoot. I did not. I'm looking for a ~10m arc. What size Neo would have about the same pull?
Thanks for pointing that out before I did something stupid.

Bladerunner - 29-5-2014 at 08:35 PM

I fly my 10m Synergy and 7m Pulse in about the same winds.

BOTH are my high wind kites. NOT my go to size around here.

What are you flying now ???????

burdman111 - 29-5-2014 at 08:37 PM

Alright. Thanks for the help. So I guess I'm looking for a ~10m PL or a 6-8 m Neo.

Baluk - 30-5-2014 at 05:09 AM

What are you flying now ???????


12m arc is a great "all rounder" size. especially if your wind is average.

PHREERIDER - 30-5-2014 at 06:29 AM

demo and seamgol in the for sale section have alot good stuff.

10m access , or apex pretty good starters if u have some experience. both are like NEO

like the crowd ask what do fly now?

8m toxic its FB but , thinks its on a bar so its somewhat in same range maybe for lower winds.

what ever average winds are... <15 i assume

12m arc will prove difficult to find , SYN 12 would be a great choice for sure, ton of range

CH2 Ph2 all good choices there, definitely some experience is needed to going on those and most of mentioned above as well

cheezycheese - 30-5-2014 at 08:53 AM

Please don't take offense to this statement, but your questions make me feel that you are relatively new to this. The winds that are necessary to enjoy a 10m arc are definitely not beginner friendly. I believe you would fare much better with an arc in the 15 - 18m range.
Don't be put off by the larger size they can be gentle giants in the right wind. You will probably get a lot more use out of an arc that size.

burdman111 - 30-5-2014 at 08:56 AM

I've been talking to smeagol about a PL S-arc 1120. Its pretty old but 80 bucks is a reasonable price for sure. Right now I don' own anything other than small foils and 2 line stunt kites but I've had lessons with what I think was a 12 m North something or other. I've decided against a 3m trainer because I'm already competent with one and I'm looking for something that'll have more pull for land kiteboarding, as well as depower capabilities. Winds here are usually in the 8-15 range with gusts, and I've heard very good things about PL arcs handling gusts. The neo was just because I'm looking for something that'll do water for when I move in a few years, and it seems to be one of the more competent closed cell foils. I'm alright with open cell I would just prefer to have a closed cell so that I can use it on the water.

I've also been talking with another user about a modded 12m Slingshot Ranger, but I'm not sure that'll handle the gusts well. Also smeagol wants that PL 1120 to be a local pick up and I can't do that.

burdman111 - 30-5-2014 at 08:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by cheezycheese  
Please don't take offense to this statement, but your questions make me feel that you are relatively new to this. The winds that are necessary to enjoy a 10m arc are definitely not beginner friendly. I believe you would fare much better with an arc in the 15 - 18m range.
Don't be put off by the larger size they can be gentle giants in the right wind. You will probably get a lot more use out of an arc that size.


No offense taken! I am pretty new to larger kites but I've been flying the smaller kites for quite a while, and I've had a few lessons with larger depowers. I started another thread in which I was informed that a 12m PL arc would be a good size, and after some research that seems like good advice, but I am certianly open to more as that thread kind of took a strange direction...

Bladerunner - 30-5-2014 at 09:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by cheezycheese  
Please don't take offense to this statement, but your questions make me feel that you are relatively new to this. The winds that are necessary to enjoy a 10m arc are definitely not beginner friendly. I believe you would fare much better with an arc in the 15 - 18m range.
Don't be put off by the larger size they can be gentle giants in the right wind. You will probably get a lot more use out of an arc that size.


Thanks for saying what I was thinking !

A 10m arc in 8 - 15mph wind would mostly frustrate you. It doesn't start to perform until about 15 and that is getting into dangerous winds for learning.

S-arc had very poor depower . At least my 460 does. I would not suggest you start on any arc older than the Venom.

Trying to learn on water with an old arc or closed cell foil will be a challenge unless you have shallows so you can stand to relaunch / self rescue .

You get what you pay for in this sport. If you don't plan on hitting water this summer then consider an open cell. You can sell it off to fund an LEI once you don't crash a lot and are ready to take the plunge.

With your winds, I would not consider anything smaller than a 7m foil.

ssayre - 30-5-2014 at 10:22 AM

Step 1: Get a harness if you don't already

Step 2: Get 7 meterish open cell depower for working on your skills and using on land

Step 3: Get an lei and more lessons when you hit the water.

Problem solved. I'm not a water guy but there has to be a reason that 99.9% of water guys use lei

Also, there's no way your going to get just one kite that's going to be good for learning, using, and water when the time comes. Your going to have to consign to the fact you will need 2 or 3 kites to be effective for what your goals are.

burdman111 - 30-5-2014 at 10:32 AM

Alright. I think I get what you guys are saying, but I am getting a little lost via mixed messages.

So apparently a 12m PL won't pull well in the lower wind ranges of where I am, so I should get something larger than a 12m, right?

But then you say with my winds I should go 7 meters?

Thanks a ton for this great advice I'm just getting a little confused here. Do I need something larger for the lighter winds, or do I need something smaller (like a 7m) as you recommended?

PHREERIDER - 30-5-2014 at 10:36 AM

no harness?

burdman111 - 30-5-2014 at 10:39 AM

I will be purchasing a harness when I finally buy a kite.

BeamerBob - 30-5-2014 at 10:48 AM

When comparing an arc to a bridled depower, the arc will need to measure a third to half again larger for comparable wind range. The arc will be less capable in winds below 8 mph unless you have an 18-19m. So if someone recommends a ~10m bridled depower like a NEO, you would want a 15m ARC to match up evenly in preferred wind range for the 2 kites. These numbers work in most winds except under 8 mph or over 25 mph winds. Other factors become more relevant in high or low winds.

abkayak - 30-5-2014 at 10:58 AM

Arc sizes differ from Dp foil/LEI sizes...i have been on arcs a few times and do not like looking up at so much kite even w/ that gentle giant thing it has going on
I started w/ fb went thru several size fb kites and my first dp was a 7.3 frenzy..if i went arc i would have gone like13/15m
now my go to dp for a landboard is a 9m closed cell like the Neo...i fly it in like 10-25mph winds...hope that helps

burdman111 - 30-5-2014 at 11:03 AM

ALright, so I'm back to a 12-15m PL arc then. I just have the added issue of weighing almost absolutely nothing. so finding a kite that will not pull me too hard is definately an issue, but between my old thread and this one an 8-10m closed cell or a 12-15m PL arc sound like the best options.

abkayak - 30-5-2014 at 11:27 AM

when we all start out we look for as much info as possible and than make informed decisions in our buying....NOT
imo...kiters by nature don’t want too much help we want to do it ourselves
everyone of us has bought the wrong kite...myself included...point is all kites need a good home so just buy as many as you can....and get a harness and hook in now while your fb..because that’s an important step you shouldn't skip
i vote 8m Neo...btw

cheezycheese - 30-5-2014 at 11:51 AM

[Quote]i have been on arcs a few times and do not like looking up at so much kite[/rquote]

Do tell....

Demoknight - 30-5-2014 at 11:54 AM

If you are very light weight, I would say 12m is a good place to start for you. I weigh roughly 200 lbs and my 12m Charger 2 will start to pull me fine around 10mph of wind. I have to work the kite pretty hard to get any speed out of it, but I can get rolling and stay rolling. If your average wind is under 10mph, you will either want a pretty huge arc, or a decent 10-11m foil. Also keep in mind that gust munching ability of any kite is pretty much only while rolling. The best gust munching arc will still be really frustrating to fly static in janky winds. You have to be on a board or buggy rolling at speed to see what we mean by gust handling. The arcs will flex and flop on the ends of the lines, but you will feel almost none of that but a nice stead pull while in motion. If you are flying in crappy winds static, you will have the same problems any other kite has and it will overfly, or stall and drift into the power and keelhaul you big time.

burdman111 - 30-5-2014 at 12:05 PM

I weigh roughly half of what you do. That being said, ~10 miles per hour is about the bottom end of what I expect so that will probably do nicely. In that case I will probably jump on Smeagle's PL S-arc 1120.

abkayak - 30-5-2014 at 12:12 PM

cheese...i might have had a smile on my face...but that was cause i was clinching my sphincter so hard..damn Arc was so big ang jellyfish like...thing was like 50 meters to me..thanks for the fly!!

Arc Calculator

jollydriver - 30-5-2014 at 01:41 PM

Hi

Another resource to be aware of is the arc wind calculator at this link:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/wind_range.htm?weigh...

A wealth of information is also available here on arcs in general:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

As for the S-Arc, depower and overall adjustability is limited in that design (the same holds true to a lesser degree on the Guerrillas). In your case I would look for 11-15M kites in the Venom, Vortex, Synergy, or Charger 2 families, depending on your budget. The F-Arc, Phantom, Scorpion, and 1st Gen Charger are generally considered more advanced kites because of either aspect ratio or kite speed.

As for the Neo, the 8M would seem to be the right size for you. I would look for either a Neo 2 or Neo 3, as the bar and safety systems on both are a significant improvement to the first gen Neo. If you can find a Flysurfer Pulse, Pulse 2, or Unity at the 7-8M size, those would be compatible kites as well.

Elnica did have a 15m Synergy at this link for sale:

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=27987

My only concern is at your light weight, that's a lot of kite.

Best Luck in your search

JD

Bladerunner - 30-5-2014 at 04:11 PM

Listen to Jollydriver !

AVOID 1st generation kites !!!! The Sarc and Neo are 1st generation. For no other reason than the improved safeties on the newer kites. You are stuck on the price and that is blinding you ! There is a reason they are so cheap ! You pay in this sport one way or another. Don't waste money on inferior gear !

Arcs aren't a kite to learn how to fly . They are a kite to get into motion with. They handle gusts like a dream in motion. Like a jelly fish static ! Skipping the 3m trainer and hooking in is short cut enough.

If you must go with an arc , don't buy older than a Venom. If you MUST go closed cell look for Neo II or III , Flysurfer Pulse or Pulse II .

If you are poor go open cell ! Sell it for an LEI when you are ready for the water, if need be.

BeamerBob - 30-5-2014 at 04:21 PM

Yeah, don't hear and not hear advice based on price or predisposed notions. You can take advantage of a wealth of learning and mistakes already made here if you keep an open mind. The wrong choice here can either not meet your goals, turn you off from the sport, or get you hurt or worse. When you have your next years worth of experience, you will be able to better assimilate the advice given here. Right now I know it's overwhelming. I've stumbled across posts and questions of mine from when I started and remember the green lack of knowledge I had then. I'm smarter than back in the beginning, but expect to learn something every time I fly or speak to someone with different experiences than I've had. Always the student.

elnica - 30-5-2014 at 07:02 PM

I have a Peter Lynn Synergy 15m for sale. It's has about the same wind range as a PL Venom /v2 13 meter. You would need to get a bar separately though.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=27987

If you have small two line kite, you can tie a stick to the handles to learn how to move the kite on a "bar". 4 line kites behave differently though, and are meant to be used in motion.

OCFlyer - 1-6-2014 at 09:11 PM

I'm a small guy as well, 5' 6" & 145lb. I've ridden both closed cell foils and LEIs on water. My most used kite currently is the Neo2 11m which I use from 15 - 25 knots here in So Cal, 25 knots is a bit overpowered but I've been kiting for quite a few years, would not recommend that high for a newbie. Anything below 15 knots I ride a Matrixx 15M. I also ride a Venom2 15m which has a little more power then the Neo2. So which would I recommend? Personally I would recommend the Neo2 11m, it is a good beginners kite, easy launch and landing and the 5th line safety works great. I haven't ridden the Synergy 15m personally but it is a good option as well but Arcs are a different beast altogether due to the longer learning curve to launch and land compared to the Neo2. I learned to kitesurf on my own with the Venom so it can be done but I feel I would have progressed faster on the water if I had started on the Neo2 or on a newer gen LEI. Hope that helps a little.

burdman111 - 1-6-2014 at 09:51 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I will keep all of this in mind. I do like what I've been hearing about the Neo's as well as the arcs, so at this point its pretty much whichever becomes available at a price I can afford first. I'll keep my eye out, but thanks to everyone for the help.

Snake - 2-6-2014 at 11:58 AM

I started on a PL venom I 13m. It's a good starter size and is well behaved. I then got 3 guerilla I (13m, 15m, and 18m). Guerillas where the first "refined" arc PL produced. It took the s-arc, which was mostly a prof of concept kite, and made it user friendly and added loads of performance. Is it a bad kite by todays standards? Depends on what you are doing. On water, it is a bad choice. On a land(buggy or board) it is alright if you are just cruising but there are better arcs for jumping and tricks(venom to charger 2). I love my 15m Guerilla for cruising across my field. I can jump with it, but not nearly as high and easily as I can with my venom.

To sum it up, don't get an S-arc. If you want to cruse and have no intention of jumping or tricks, a guerilla I or II, bomba, or phantom are good choices for little cash. For performance and tricks, a venom I or II, synergy, phantom II, or charger II are good choices. Avoid scorpions, chargers I, and f-arcs. these are advanced performance kites that sacrifice user-friendliness for performance. Avoid them for now, especially the f-arcs since they really cheap like s-arcs.

OCFlyer - 2-6-2014 at 04:24 PM

I'm a small guy as well, 5' 6" & 145lb. I've ridden both closed cell foils and LEIs on water. My most used kite currently is the Neo2 11m which I use from 15 - 25 knots here in So Cal, 25 knots is a bit overpowered but I've been kiting for quite a few years, would not recommend that high for a newbie. Anything below 15 knots I ride a Matrixx 15M. I also ride a Venom2 15m which has a little more power then the Neo2. So which would I recommend? Personally I would recommend the Neo2 11m, it is a good beginners kite, easy launch and landing and the 5th line safety works great. I haven't ridden the Synergy 15m personally but it is a good option as well but Arcs are a different beast altogether due to the longer learning curve to launch and land compared to the Neo2. I learned to kitesurf on my own with the Venom so it can be done but I feel I would have progressed faster on the water if I had started on the Neo2 or on a newer gen LEI. Hope that helps a little.

BeamerBob - 3-6-2014 at 09:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Snake  
I started on a PL venom I 13m. It's a good starter size and is well behaved. I then got 3 guerilla I (13m, 15m, and 18m). Guerillas where the first "refined" arc PL produced. It took the s-arc, which was mostly a prof of concept kite, and made it user friendly and added loads of performance. Is it a bad kite by todays standards? Depends on what you are doing. On water, it is a bad choice. On a land(buggy or board) it is alright if you are just cruising but there are better arcs for jumping and tricks(venom to charger 2). I love my 15m Guerilla for cruising across my field. I can jump with it, but not nearly as high and easily as I can with my venom.

To sum it up, don't get an S-arc. If you want to cruse and have no intention of jumping or tricks, a guerilla I or II, bomba, or phantom are good choices for little cash. For performance and tricks, a venom I or II, synergy, phantom II, or charger II are good choices. Avoid scorpions, chargers I, and f-arcs. these are advanced performance kites that sacrifice user-friendliness for performance. Avoid them for now, especially the f-arcs since they really cheap like s-arcs.


I would disagree that the Phantom is not a good kite for jumping. Any arc can be a good kite if you don't want to jump though. I've been in high 50s and lower 60s in my buggy with 9 and 12m Phantom IIs and have never been lifted by one through flight control.

Snake - 3-6-2014 at 03:02 PM

On the phantom, I was just pointing out that there are better kites for the job. most people fly them in buggies and just cruise with it. I have never flown a phanny but I heard it is the f-arc with it's nuts cut off so I assumed it was less for jumping and more stable.

PHREERIDER - 3-6-2014 at 06:26 PM

my phantom 15 would boost huge in 20knots, the first time i took it out was on the water, nice 20knot day ...but i had to hit the landboard with it first...wow almost the width of the beach! ended up in the dunes! speed and power seemed endless...all with kingkong bar pressure.

stable, friendly for hi AR kite with some "depower"( kinda ). twinskin c-kite basically, my vI vII seemed tame in comparison seems like... though they are much quicker

first kite i could boost thru transitions with, a serious air chair

definitely stable. in low wind gentle giant

BeamerBob - 3-6-2014 at 06:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER  
my phantom 15 would boost huge in 20knots, the first time i took it out was on the water, nice 20knot day ...but i had to hit the landboard with it first...wow almost the width of the beach! ended up in the dunes! speed and power seemed endless...all with kingkong bar pressure.

stable, friendly for hi AR kite with some "depower"( kinda ). twinskin c-kite basically, my vI vII seemed tame in comparison seems like... though they are much quicker

first kite i could boost thru transitions with, a serious air chair

definitely stable. in low wind gentle giant



Phree I was pretty sure you coined the phrase "skyjack" referring to this kite. Mine was lifty and floaty flying static if I just played around with it.

PHREERIDER - 4-6-2014 at 09:30 AM

here we go...original post... a real throw back Feb. 2009

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=8435#pid662...

PHREERIDER - 4-6-2014 at 09:36 AM

lotta voices on that old thread ...arc disease was rampant at the time

cheezycheese - 4-6-2014 at 05:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER  
lotta voices on that old thread ...arc disease was rampant at the time


Wow Phree, thanks for digging that up !! Crazy alumni on that thread and BANG - a post from AJ... takes you back.... :cool2:

PHREERIDER - 4-6-2014 at 06:48 PM

phuturizing the past so we see the present clearly, indeed a nice trip