Power Kite Forum - Difference between Entry Level and Intermediate Kites

Difference between Entry Level and Intermediate Kites

cbs2010 - 3-9-2014 at 09:28 AM

I've been reading many posts and have noticed that the seasoned fliers do not have the entry level kites listed in their signature that often. Maybe they've omitted them or perhaps sold them off.

How much of a difference in flight characteristics would I experience if I skipped the usual Hornet / Beamer / Octane route and went one step up to either a :
Toxic / Reactor / Voltage / Twister / Method ?

Would the initial learning be much more difficult but in the long run provide a kite that is more enjoyable to fly ? I will be using the kite mostly for static flying and may consider some type of moving activity down the road, but that won't be for awhile.

I am also considering a 5m instead of a 3m - only because the winds here are mostly in the 4-8 mph. Thoughts ?

PS
Where do I find the settings to change my signature ?

abkayak - 3-9-2014 at 10:23 AM

i wouldnt be too turned off by that entry level name...but if you are please dont also jump to 5m
and i still like my hornet plenty....it never once tried to kill me while some of the others have
hummmm...maybe thats why i still fly

macboy - 3-9-2014 at 11:05 AM

I think the biggest difference is the amount of power produced per square meter (and the KIND of power it produces - lift vs pull). I remember flying a Radsails Aztec 5 and a Reactor II 5.5 and then a Century 4.0 one after the other and the power output on the Reactor to the Aztec was way bigger and then the Century (old model race kite) nearly ripped me off the earth into the stratosphere.

erratic winds - 3-9-2014 at 11:59 AM

An entry level kite will pull you off your feet and you'll fall down on your butt and laugh at yourself.

An intermediate kite can pull you into the superman position, 3-5 feet off the ground, and you land on your face about 15 feet away from where you started, and if you're lucky, it doesn't hurt too much to stop you from laughing at yourself.

Well, that was my experience, anyways! Then I went and did something foolish, like buy a 12m as my first kite.....

B-Roc - 3-9-2014 at 12:19 PM

I learned on a 8.5 Blade III but I had been flying sport kites for at least 10 years and I did take a lesson before buying so I thoroughly understood how to fly the kite and what the wind window was all about. Nevertheless, I still had enough "Oh sh!+ moments to make me realize I needed to progress on something smaller and more tame or I was going to severely limit my flying days to "ideal" low wind conditions and possibly injure myself.

So can you learn on "advanced" kites... sure but you need to take it slow and go out in lesser winds (ie. underpowered) and work your way up. I think the best thing about “entry level kites” is that they are confidence builders. There is nothing worse than jumping head first into a new hobby and then getting hurt, or becoming scared because you were grossly overpowered and so you walk away from what could be a lifelong passion had you progressed more slowly and smartly. New pilots often grossly underestimate wind strength and overestimate their ability to hold down power and stay in control. Kites can become intimidating fast and when you don’t have the skills to know how to react… well… bad things happen. If we’re lucky you walk away and laugh and learn. If not….

rtz - 3-9-2014 at 01:33 PM

The entry level kites are going to be both cheaper to purchase and much more enjoyable to fly static.

The more powerful, expensive kites are really designed to pull you around in a buggy or on a board. They are no fun to static fly(for me anyways).

It's like the difference between throwing around a sports car and a semi truck.

Getting your drivers license in a normal car or a top fuel dragster.

You really need to match the size of kite to the wind range you will be flying in. A big kite is no fun at all to fly static.

Get a cheap 3 or 4 meter Beamer or Hornet. Used even. Try it out and decide from that what you want to do. Big kites are hard to fly in light wind. In the real light stuff; if it stops moving; it wants to fall out of the sky.

Big Mike has 3m Hornets on sale right now:

http://www.bigmikeskites.com/PeterLynn/Hornet/Hornet.html

RedSky - 3-9-2014 at 02:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by cbs2010

PS
Where do I find the settings to change my signature ?

Click on User Control Panel (top right), then click Edit Profile (top left) then scroll down to signature. (half way down). Once you're done editing your sig then click Edit Profile at bottom of page.

cbs2010 - 3-9-2014 at 02:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rtz

The entry level kites are going to be both cheaper to purchase and much more enjoyable to fly static.

The more powerful, expensive kites are really designed to pull you around in a buggy or on a board. They are no fun to static fly(for me anyways).

You really need to match the size of kite to the wind range you will be flying in. A big kite is no fun at all to fly static. Big kites are hard to fly in light wind. In the real light stuff; if it stops moving; it wants to fall out of the sky.

http://www.bigmikeskites.com/PeterLynn/Hornet/Hornet.html

In addition, being safe is something I want to stress too. I'd rather not get pulled into a superman position from a 3m Toxic or Method, over a 3m Hornet first thing. Although I am looking to Kitercise and get some Pull outta this, if possible in lower winds

As far as wind though, being (4-8 mph) average will a 3m fly as well in that compared to a larger kite ?

John Holgate - 3-9-2014 at 02:59 PM

The Method and Toxic are relatively tame and would be ok to learn on. I don't know the Voltage, but the Twister and Reactor would be a bit faster and more aggressive than the others and require a little more finesse on the handles to fly and a bit more care. The Method's all about the top end (at least in motion in a buggy etc) and doesn't have much low end grunt. However, for static flying, I would definitely stick with 3m for a start - faster, zippier, more fun and more opportunities to fly but with plenty of pull to wear you well and truly out. A 5m kite, imho, flies and turns slower with lots more pull and kills some of the enjoyment of static flying - at least for me. Unless I'm on the sand wanting to do really long scuds. The 3m Method is a really sweet and well behaved kite to static fly - one of my favorites. However, if you're eventually going to be on a landboard or buggy, you may want a little more low end grunt - in which case get the 3m Toxic - which is still very nice to static fly. The Toxic will be a little faster and have a bit wider window than the Beamer and may require a touch of brake to stop it from occasionally over-flying the window. And if flying in light and gusty winds, down-turn the kite just before the edge of the window - if you take it right to the edge and try and up-turn it, you'll sometimes find yourself having to run backwards to keep the kite inflated. The Hornet 3m is a really nice kite too - a little slower than the Toxic but would also make for a nice engine later on. Stick with a 3m to start with.

cbs2010 - 3-9-2014 at 03:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

The Method and Toxic are relatively tame and would be ok to learn on. I don't know the Voltage, but the Twister and Reactor would be a bit faster and more aggressive than the others and require a little more finesse on the handles to fly and a bit more care. The Method's all about the top end (at least in motion in a buggy etc) and doesn't have much low end grunt. However, for static flying, I would definitely stick with 3m for a start - faster, zippier, more fun and more opportunities to fly but with plenty of pull to wear you well and truly out. A 5m kite, imho, flies and turns slower with lots more pull and kills some of the enjoyment of static flying - at least for me. Unless I'm on the sand wanting to do really long scuds. The 3m Method is a really sweet and well behaved kite to static fly - one of my favorites. However, if you're eventually going to be on a landboard or buggy, you may want a little more low end grunt - in which case get the 3m Toxic - which is still very nice to static fly. The Toxic will be a little faster and have a bit wider window than the Beamer and may require a touch of brake to stop it from occasionally over-flying the window. And if flying in light and gusty winds, down-turn the kite just before the edge of the window - if you take it right to the edge and try and up-turn it, you'll sometimes find yourself having to run backwards to keep the kite inflated. The Hornet 3m is a really nice kite too - a little slower than the Toxic but would also make for a nice engine later on. Stick with a 3m to start with.

Thanks John, this is helpful.

John Holgate - 3-9-2014 at 03:12 PM

4 -8mph is pretty light but I think if you couldn't get a 3m to fly decently, then a 4m wouldn't be a lot better. Can't beat a single skin Nasa wing for light wind flying although they're not quite as much fun as a faster foil to static fly.

As for safety, there's not that much difference between the Hornet & Toxic. There's a big jump to something like a Vapor though - that really will want to rip your arms off when it gets going. And the Method is just a little faster/wider window than the Octane. The trick is with some of the intermediate kites that they don't produce quite as much power at slow speeds as some of the low aspect kites. But once the speed starts to pick up, they start to strut their stuff so to speak.

I was static flying a friends 3m Toxic a few weeks ago while we were waiting for some wind to buggy with - was probably 6mph straight down the beach, and the Toxic was very gentle and well mannered and easy to fly. We also flew his 8m Toxic - both flew fine in the light wind. The 8m was way, way slower and pulled you a long way through the sand and tended to wear you out a LOT quicker!

cbs2010 - 3-9-2014 at 03:36 PM

Oh brother Lots of good choices. It may come down to which 3m color pattern I prefer of the: Hornet, Toxic, Method, or Octane.

Although I may want to look for a kite with more "low grunt," as you say since I'll be static flying mostly and am looking for more exercise.

ssayre - 3-9-2014 at 04:11 PM

4 meter is the perfect size for me for exercise in winds between 8-12 and it is still small enough to be fun for static flying. The most fun for static flying of my kites is the 2.6 viper, but it really needs to by 10 mph plus before it's fun. I would not have fun static flying a 3 meter in winds less than 8. You might be able to get it to fly but it will be more work than fun IMO. I don't know what your winds are like, but usually it is more windy in the fall, winter, spring than the summer. If you anticipate more wind soon than the 3 meter would be good. If not, I would get a 4 meter of any of the types of kites above mentioned.

cbs2010 - 3-9-2014 at 05:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

4 meter is the perfect size for me for exercise in winds between 8-12 and it is still small enough to be fun for static flying. The most fun for static flying of my kites is the 2.6 viper, but it really needs to by 10 mph plus before it's fun. I would not have fun static flying a 3 meter in winds less than 8. You might be able to get it to fly but it will be more work than fun IMO. I don't know what your winds are like, but usually it is more windy in the fall, winter, spring than the summer. If you anticipate more wind soon than the 3 meter would be good. If not, I would get a 4 meter of any of the types of kites above mentioned.

The winds over the year average out to be around 12km/h = 7.5 mp/h

3shot - 3-9-2014 at 05:35 PM

I agree with ssayre.
If my house was burning down and could only grab one kite, it would be my 4m Flow. Yes. I know. Laugh :lol:

soliver - 3-9-2014 at 05:35 PM

I've noticed that beginner kites have certain things that intermediate or advanced kites do not and vice versa...

for instance beginner kites are:
A. More stable (they handle the janky wind better)
B. Mid to lower aspect-ratio (AR)
C. Easier to fly
D. May not be all that lifty (if thats what you're after)

However:
A. Lack seriously strong pull
B. Usually don't have a great upwind ability
C. Usually go slow
D. May not be all that lifty (if you're interested in jumping or landboarding)

On the other hand, Intermediate-advanced kites:
A. Have a mid to high AR
B. A stronger pull
C. Usually really good upwind capability
D. Are usually much faster
E. Can be much more lifty (if that's what you're after)

However:
A. They are usually less stable (they may not handle the janky wind all that well)
B. Usually not as easy to fly
C. Can be much more lifty (if you don't want to get lofted and break your @55)

The advantage of the beginner kites is their stability and ease of use that allows you to learn without as much fear of getting banged up. They teach you how to control the kite rather than react to the kite (I call it learning how to control the kite rather than SURVIVE the kite) which is also a good reason to buy a smaller size to learn with. However when you get into movement like bugging or boarding, you may have trouble getting back upwind and as you progress you will find they don't get you going very fast. Low AR = more stability at the loss of speed, upwind capability and lift. This inherently allows for more ease of use with easier recovery from mistakes and less of a need to think about the kite as you're using it.

The advantage of the more advanced kites is their speed and upwind capabilities while in motion. They are inherently designed for some sort of movement. These kites have been tuned for the seasoned pilot as they require a more advanced level of muscle memory and training as they don't always have the same stability and ease of recovery. Higher AR = more speed, upwind capability and lift at the sacrifice of stability.

There are exceptions to this rule however such as the Peter Lynn Reactors. While they have a higher AR, they are very stable. This is not to say they are AS stable as lower AR kites (i.e., a Reactor along side an Ozone Octane... Reactor AR = 4.5, Octane AR = 3.6 ish) Octane is amazingly more stable, but doesn't have near as much speed or pull as a Reactor. The difference is how stable Reactors are in comparison to other kites with similar AR. I have found Reactors to be much more stable than Toxics though they have the same AR for example.

I would always recommend getting a "beginner" kite to start with because they will always prove to be useful. They will teach you how to fly, but also will come in handy as something to hand over to a buddy who wants to give it a try, and serve as a high wind engine too. In my experience with inland winds, higher winds are less stable winds and more stable kites can counteract less stable winds.

hope we helped answer your question!

ssayre - 3-9-2014 at 05:42 PM

Your graph shows that the best chance for wind is fall and winter so it's a tough call. You could go with a 3m now and a 5m later or possibly a 4m now and a 7m later. Even if you only fly static, if you stick with it, you will want a couple sizes to be able to fly more often so I was kind of planning your second kite. Or if your goal is landboard, you could get any 3 meter to learn with and use in higher winds and plan your second kite to be a depower. For me, I've owned and tried several different types and sizes of kites and I like them all. Picking out the next kite never seems to get any easier. I'm still finding my way a year later.

Good post Soliver, you posted as I was typing

riffclown - 3-9-2014 at 05:45 PM

I have a 2M Hornet and a 2M Crossfire.. I've also flown a 2M Toxic and 2M Beamer all in similar winds..

The Hornet and Beamer are very similar in behavior. I can stunt fly with the Hornet a little easier than the Beamer..
The Toxic is faster through the air than either the Beamer or the Hornet but pulls harder when in the wind window.. It can overfly the window and luff at the extreme edges of the window but is all around a well behaved kite.

The Crossfire II is faster through the window than all of the above BUT has more of a tendency to luff at the edge of the window than the Toxic.. I don't stunt with the Crossfire II. It comes out of the bag when I want to buggy in higher winds.. It's a blast to static fly but I have to keep in mind it has a smaller flying window than any of the others and you kind of need to keep it moving. It's not a kite that likes to sit still...

The Hornet edit is what I loan to friends who want to learn to fly.. The Crossfire is reserved for friends that absolutely know what they are doing..

When the wind is low, I almost always static fly my 4M Crossfire.. It's still my favorite low wind kite. As winds increase, if I'm still only static flying, I'll move over to the 2.8 Skydog SDT and on to the Hornet 2.0 and then to the Symphony 2.2.4.

Buggy Time, hand me a CrossfireII.. PERIOD. I haven't had the opportunity to buggy with the Toxics yet but SOON....VERY SOON....

You mentioned Exercise.. ANY of these kites will give you a good workout.. Which one would be the most fun is a matter of personal taste..

ssayre - 3-9-2014 at 05:49 PM

Quote:

The Beamer is what I loan to friends who want to learn to fly

Wish I would have kept mine for that purpose. My viper took a beating this weekend.

Something else noteworthy is I've found peter lynn lines more slick and more fun to fly with than stock hq lines. It makes a big difference to me.

riffclown - 3-9-2014 at 05:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Quote:

The Beamer is what I loan to friends who want to learn to fly

Thanks for pointing that out. I meant to say Hornet.. I don't actually own a Beamer.. I corrected my post.. OOPS...

I tend to enjoy Skybond if I need slicker lines.. I bought a 1000ft spool and made my own quad sets for my smaller kites..

cbs2010 - 3-9-2014 at 05:54 PM

Thanks, lots to digest. In the end I just want a kite that will work with what little wind we tend to have in Vancouver. The winter months may bring more wind but with that also comes Rain :lol:

I know I will end up acquiring more kites, just need one 4 liner kite to start out with that will provide the most usable hours to learn on in my neck of the woods.

Cheers

John Holgate - 3-9-2014 at 06:14 PM

Quote:

It may come down to which 3m color pattern I prefer of the: Hornet, Toxic, Method, or Octane.

Between those kites, I'd say that was an ok thing to do. There are differences as has been discussed but all are very nice kites. Except the Hornet in the 5m - I had the 3m and really enjoyed it but found the 5m too slow for my liking.

Here's the vid of our 'session' with the 8m & 3m Toxics and a 2.7m Vapor. We were tricked into hauling our buggy's down to the beach by 5 minutes of 10knots directly on shore....which magically disappeared when we got down the dune. Very light wind - notice that we're keeping the kites moving and mostly down-turning them to keep them inflated and flying in the light wind. You couldn't keep the kites still in this little wind, they'd just fall out of the sky.

Quote:

However: A. Lack seriously strong pull

Spencer!!! Remind me to introduce you to my NS2's some time. :D

13th Beach light wind static fly

rofer - 3-9-2014 at 06:29 PM

The nice thing about my Beamer is that it's awfully light and easy to fly. I can get it up in the air walking backwards and I just need a little wind to keep it there.

On the other hand, I've yet to get my 8m Century II to fly in any of the winds I've dared take it out in. I think this is largely because it's much heavier and thus harder to get higher up into the air where the better wind is, but I'm sure part of it is also that the Century II is just a much harder kite to fly and I'm still learning.

cbs2010 - 3-9-2014 at 06:45 PM

Some physics needs to chime in here whether a 3m ( lighter ) but less sail to trap air, will stay afloat better than a 4m ( heavier ) but more sail to trap air.

However may be to small a difference between these kite sizes in this instance to make much a difference ???

soliver - 3-9-2014 at 06:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Quote:

However: A. Lack seriously strong pull

Spencer!!! Remind me to introduce you to my NS2's some time. :D

13th Beach light wind static fly

My bad John, I know NPWs and the NS2s have an amazing pull... Perhaps I should edit my post to say... "When it comes to foils... ... ..." Thanks for the correction, of course!!! :lol:

riffclown - 3-9-2014 at 06:52 PM

In General (among fixed Bridled kites) the bigger the kite, the less wind you need to keep it airborne.. There are difference in kite performance and materials but that's a pretty good rule of thumb..

I can fly my 4M, 5M and 8M kites in zero wind but you have to work them pretty hard to do so..

cbs2010 - 3-9-2014 at 08:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

13th Beach light wind static fly

Nice flight of beers in that video John

ssayre - 4-9-2014 at 05:51 AM

Quote:

Except the Hornet in the 5m - I had the 3m and really enjoyed it but found the 5m too slow for my liking.

John, were you referring to the hornet II or the new hornet? Has anyone flown the new hornet? Specifically in the 6m size. It looks like they are one of the few entry level kites to offer a large size.

hiaguy - 4-9-2014 at 08:11 AM

I can't believe that bladerunner hasn't chimed in on this yet! :dunno:

John Holgate - 4-9-2014 at 04:07 PM

Quote:

John, were you referring to the hornet II or the new hornet?

I think mine was the original hornet - the 3m was white/grey/red. The 5m was the original hornet too. But I think the general rule is, as you go up in size, the low AR kites tend to get a bit slow. Haven't flown the new ones so I would assume (always dangerous!) that they are somewhat better...

ssayre - 4-9-2014 at 04:15 PM

A guy I work with has a 2013 4 meter hornet that I've flown and I was very impressed with it. It turned quickly and had good power. It was not as powerful as my 4m twister that I flew side by side but it was fun to fly. He only used it twice so I was thinking about buying it from him to replace my twister as a buggy engine for the 4 meter size. It's a little less lifty and more forgiving in the gusts. Although I do have a 4m nasa star coming so I might be overdoing it if I had 3 4m kites.

3shot - 4-9-2014 at 04:46 PM

Sean. Have the Nasa Stars shipped yet?

ssayre - 4-9-2014 at 05:08 PM

Should be here anytime. International shipping is a test of patience.

3shot - 4-9-2014 at 06:01 PM

Sweet!

John Holgate - 4-9-2014 at 09:31 PM

Quote:

Although I do have a 4m nasa star coming so I might be overdoing it if I had 3 4m kites.

Yep, there'd be a bit of crossover there for sure. I spent a morning running side by side with Clive at Sandy Point a while back - him on a 4m Octane (I think, unless it was a Flow) and me on the 4m NS2. Under 14 knots or so, I had the advantage, over 16 knots, he had the advantage but there was never more than a couple of mph between us. Flow's probably just a tad faster with a little less grunt than the Hornet.

cbs2010 - 4-9-2014 at 11:22 PM

How can you tell if a dealer has the new Hornet or the Old Hornet ? Is the new Hornet called the Hornet II or the Hornet 2013? Are the color schemes different for both the kite and bag ?

I found an online site that even lists the Hornet III 2014.

It gets real confusing when the pictures of the kites all look the same and the logo doesn't reflect any sort of name change.

rtz - 5-9-2014 at 12:45 AM

The previous model was the Hornet II as seen here: http://www.awindofchange.com/product/plhornetII.html

The current model is just the Hornet: http://www.powerkiteshop.com/peter_lynn_hornet_kite.htm

Some sites refer to it as the III or 2013 or 2014 model. http://www.peterlynn.com/buggying/hornet/

Old bag:

New bag:

Bladerunner - 5-9-2014 at 06:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy

I can't believe that bladerunner hasn't chimed in on this yet! :dunno:

I haven't flown fixed bridle much so can't say too much that hasn't been said. Except that if you are looking at new kites I suggest you look at the 3.3m PKD Buster Soulfly. It is a very good price. Good for beginners but it will work as an engine as well.

Vancouver is all about location. ANY inland park will have messy wind. Garry Point is best. Vanier if you are in Van. and Sunset Beach over the winter.

cbs2010 - 6-9-2014 at 11:41 AM

Does the quality of the sail differ much from one brand to another ? I've read some threads that remark on Ozone being on the high end of quality , whle others are mentioned as being good - but leaves me with the impression that Ozone is higher. I guess I'm asking because I had my PL Vibe 2.3 out last week ( approx. 4th flight ) and the sail colors have faded due to salt water from the low tide. I'm guessing salt water will be caustic to any sail, but was wondering if some sails might have better durability over others ?

On a side note would the Ozone Octane being equal or better than the Hornet ? Some have mentioned to stay clear of Ozone because they are getting out of FB foils.

soliver - 6-9-2014 at 12:26 PM

Yes, Ozone is TOP quality, their construction is top notch and their stuff is pretty awesome. I had an Octane and liked it a lot. It is one of the most stable kites I've ever flown. I only sold it (traded it actually) because I never flew it.

Buuuuuuut.... You PAY for Ozone quality. While the quality of HQ, Peter Lynn, Flexifoil and PKD, does not necessarily match Ozone, it is only because Ozone goes above and beyond. I am 100% convinced of the high quality of any of those brands. I own a majority of PL kites, and have owned several HQ, and have flown both PKD and Flexi's, I can tell you from experience that they are all awesome quality. That being said, for the money, the BEST value is PKD Buster Soulfly. For under $200, you get a 3m kite matching the quality of any of those other brands. Speaking quality wise, if you say PL, HQ etc. are at 100%, then Ozone is at 115% (but you pay for 130%).

I personally am a big fan of Peter Lynn stuff, I only wish they hadn't stopped producing Vipers and Cores.

John Holgate - 6-9-2014 at 03:42 PM

Probably the best two constructed kites I've ever looked really closely at would be the Century II and the Zebra Z1. Meticulously put together with no corners cut that I could see. I remember being impressed with the quality (if not the performance and bar setup) of the Gin Inuit too. But then Gin, like Ozone, manufacture paragliders too so you'd expect that they'd know their business. PL, Ozone, HQ, Flexifoil all seem well put together and I've never had any issues with any of them. Born-kite too, are beautifully stitched.

Some of the single skin manufacturers like Spirit of Air and Premier kites are of much lower quality with some samples I've had to unpick errant lines of stitching and re sew. And spar pockets not stitched well enough.... not sure if they make power kites, but I'd steer clear of em if they did.

jy1zoom - 6-11-2014 at 09:38 AM

Hi Cbs 2010, Ive a new Exit 6.0m for $130 CAD, for sale. 4 line power kite complete with handles, lines and bag. Also used PKD Buster 3.0m $100, kite and drawstring sac. Can meet at Garry Point Park sometime.
Jeremy