So I'm super stoked about the quiver of Phantom I's that will hopefully be in my hands soon. However, I have a few concerns. My experience with flying
depower kites have mostly been on the APEX IV and an older Ozone Frenzy. Both seem to have a tendency to overfly. This makes it incredibly difficult
to landboard with. Here is the usual behavior. I launch the kite, a nice strong wind comes in causing it to overfly (past the zenith), then it lulls
(sometimes with a bowtie), falls back down to where it can catch wind and then snaps back into play causing me to surge forward out of control.
The only depower kite that I have tried that hasn't given me this experience has been the Flysurfer Peak. I'm was really hoping the Phantom's would be
immune from this behavior but I just spoke with someone on this forum who has had the same experience with his arcs (Synergy and Venom).
It's likely inexperience that's mostly involved here, but does anybody have some thoughts on this? Surely we're not the only ones that struggles with
this.robinsonpr - 6-11-2014 at 08:51 AM
So yeah I've had this problem when flying my arcs (both the Venom I and the Synergy). I was flying static, just trying to get to grips with setup,
launch and landing them solo. But it got to the point where I was scared to put them up because of the overfly/drop behavior I kept seeing. As
jadog says inexperience would have been a lot of the issue, but I've got a lot of hours with smaller kites and know the window quite well.
On the rare occasion when I managed to get to a beach with my kites I tried the Venom again in a smooth 12mph wind and it behaved itself beautifully.
But unfortunately I can rarely get to a beach.
I got the arcs for their reputation as gust munchers, but the first time I put my newly purchased 15m Synergy up I experienced the Lull -> Kite
drops back -> BANG and got dragged about 20 metres in the blink of an eye and ended up with a broken thumb.
Hence my new purchase....Flysurfer Peak 6m, and it's finally got me making my first baby steps on a landboard.
I'd LOVE some arcs tips when flying in variable inland conditions! I know I've got a couple of really sweet kites but have failed to see the good
side of them so far!!BeamerBob - 6-11-2014 at 09:01 AM
As you gain experience, you will learn when the kite is headed past the point of no return and before it gets there, you will learn to turn the kite
to keep it deeper in the wind window. Also, you can stall the kite back a bit and/or slow down its charge out of the wind window by pulling in the
bar a bit. It fully lit conditions, be careful how much you pull the bar in since this is the "jump button". These problems will diminish once you
are moving and have some apparent wind pushing the kite deeper into the window. To put it very simply, you fly the kite instead of letting the kite
fly you.
All this is SO apparent when some experienced pilots are watching a newbie fly and they simultaneously shout a warning about something that hasn't
happened yet.g00fba11 - 6-11-2014 at 09:20 AM
First off I would recommend checking out this page.
The projected area of the Venom 13m, the Venom II 13m and the Synergy 15m are all very close.
The Venoms having a PA of 9.10 and the Synergy a PA of 9.20.
So from that aspect the kites are very similar. The Synergy was PLs second deployment t of the VPC bridle. This makes this kite easier and faster
to turn. A kite that moves and reacts faster in gusty conditions takes more experience to master.
Starting with your 13m Venom and getting it setup correctly would be the way to go. You would gain the experience needed to handle the faster
Synergy.
Anyway, I will sit back and let the experts chime in and help you guys out.
Feyd - 6-11-2014 at 10:13 AM
Both good input from both Bob and Goofy. And as Bob stated, with experience you'll learn to recognize when they start to overfly and counter it
before you get to the point of no return and end up with a front end collapse.
The Arcs, shouldn't over fly much. That can be a tuning issue or maybe not depending on your wind conditions. Most kites these days have had a lot
of the potential to overfly taken out of them but in it still occurs. In a kite like the Chrono, designed to charger the edge of the window, there's a
lot of overflight if you don't keep an eye on it.
Most kites can avert overflight by simply sheeting in and adding a little stall. Be mindfull that if the kite is surging forward in a gust and
beginning to overfly sheeting in can creat lift and inadvertently pick you up. Which is why you should not linger at the Zenith but better at 10/11
or 1/2:00.
Robin, Goofy's right. If you want to get a handle on flying those Arcs focus on the 13m Venom. It is the best all rounder. The equivalent open cell
depow is about 7m so think of it in those terms. Fly it in winds you would be comfortable flying a 7m Frenzy in. And make sure you have it
completely filled before launch and that the vents are not stuck closed. The biggest contributor IMO to first time Arc fliers having a bad experience
is lack of internal pressure in the wing.
The only thing that comes close to those arcs in terms of performance in less than perfect winds would be your new Peak. In terms of flight quality
when you get moving the Peak is great but the Arcs are PRIMO. :D
I love that we live in a world with so much kite variety and of all these kites, though some do some things better than others, so few kites these
days full on suck.
|flyguy0101 - 6-11-2014 at 10:16 AM
@jadog- The biggest key to an arc in unclean winds and especially lulls is what Bob said- you got to fly the kite and movement will elimante the bulk
of any issues. In clean winds - well it generally does not happen. Assuming you are talking about riding a board- my couple of key items when flying
in chunky or lully winds
1. i will try to have the kite moving between 11-1 when getting ready to get on the board- this will become much easier with experience but a lot of
overflying bowtie syndrome is because the kite has stopped moving and is getting "bumped" by the wind. (this is not aggressive flying just making sure
the ite is moving)
2. during lulls become friendly with the center lines- pull them forcefully and smoothly if kite is falling out of the sky- if you are moving this
usually wont happen unless you are choking the kite( choking the kite is pulling the bar in or having too much tension on the backlines- critical in
light winds that you trim the kite in, will reduce steerablity but needed to keep the arc flying)
3. kite is constantly falling into the window- either not enough wind or your choking that chicken again- shorten the trim strap in (side note in
really hard winds pulling the trim strap in will reduce the power of the kite but in light winds will allow it to fly much better)
4. when things are not working right look where your bar is- willing to bet you need to push the bar out
5. you will love your phannys just make sure they are fully inflated when launching or you will get very frustrated
look forward to hearing your progress and hope this helps
scottg00fba11 - 6-11-2014 at 11:09 AM
@fly.... Glad you made it out. Hope everything is going well.
Thanks for helping out here as well.
I will try to get some time to unroll one of my PL 07 bars. It has a simple mod that replaces the stock trim strap with a Best 09 depow strap that
also has the Mickey Mouse ears.
This is a great setup for helping keep/untwist lines as well as making it easier to trim kite.
I don't know about others, but the PL loop trim on the 07 always confused me as to which way I was going. That is why I came up with the Best kites
mod. Independent straps for each direction.
I don't want to hijack jadog's thread too much but these arc tips are gold!!!!!!!!
First off I didn't realise my Venom and Synergy were so close. I knew there was a big crossover in wind range but as the Synergy physically is bigger
and I read that the newer arcs with the VPC pull more than the older arcs of the same sizes, I figured the Synergy 15m would compare to something like
a Venom I 16m or bigger. In my naivety of course.
I have had some success with the Venom. Maybe I just had the Synergy out on a particularly blustery day when I got spanked.
Quote:
Starting with your 13m Venom and getting it setup correctly would be the way to go.
@g00fba11 what do you mean by getting it set up correctly? Is there much to check here. I've been over those websites (thanks!). It's practically
like new, only been flown literally about 6 times. Lines are all the same length, standard 04 bar as supplied with the kite. Internal strap loose.
Is there anything else I need to do to ensure it's setup correctly?
@Feyd I never realised the 13m Venom was comparable to a 7m foil. It will definitely help to think of it in those terms rather than worry about the
square volume of sail when it's lying on the ground! I've launched it solo quite a few times without too much trouble, so I'm OK there.
@flyguy I think you've nailed one of my huge problems. In the lighter wind I had my trim all the way out. In my mind trim out = more power and I
stupidly assumed that in lighter winds I would need more power to keep the thing in the air. Thinking back I was out trying to fly the Venom one day
in about 10mph but with lulls, and I noticed that letting the trim out didn't really give me any more power but it started falling back more. This
was years ago when I first got the Venom and I hadn't flown any foils on handles, my only experience was on water with a LEI. Now I have done lots of
flying with Revs and 4 line foils I understand more about brake input and angle of attack, so it makes sense to hear you say pulling the trim in will
make the kite fly better in light winds, as you're reducing the angle of attack to allow the air to flow under it and push it up I will definitely keep that in mind next time I get the Venom out!!!
The other thing I used to do with arcs (which I know is a real no-no now that I have flown my new Peak a few times) is fly with the trim out and the
bar all the way out against the stopper ball on the throw. So I had ZERO depower available at the bar because it was already all the way out!
What a numpty. I now cannot wait to give my beloved Venom another try. And then hopefully the Synergy!!!
Thanks again all!g00fba11 - 6-11-2014 at 04:41 PM
@robinsonpr
What I meant by getting the kite setup correctly is observing your line tensions when trimmed in and out. Also as you move the bar in and out.
As fly guy stated you don't want the rear lines getting to tight you choke the kite out. On the other hand you don't want them staying to loose
there is no input there or it takes a lot of effort.
That is where experience and tying your own custom pigtails really comes in. It allows you to really tune your bar lines et to the kite you are
flying. It also enables you to swap out your depow strap as I mentioned in another post. Lines stretch, straps stretch etc. having a set of
custom pigtails that allows you several attachment points for your backlines.
What I have have found is giving a touch more length in the back line pigtail allowed me more flexibility in trim and throw in gusty winds without
choking the kite.
Make sense?
Hopefully I explained this well enough.
Any way 1/64 amsteel makes some awesome pigtails and is available online at west marine and other locations.
I like to follow the nautical colors for port and starboard. Anything that helps me to quickly ID direction is what I try to put in my kit. Same
reason for the Best depow straps.
You see. I have old timers. Memory not to sharp!UnknownAX - 6-11-2014 at 11:54 PM
I actually like to trim my kite (atleast the foil) so that it backstalls slightly when I pull in the bar while I'm not moving. That way I can squeeze
out a little more power or slow down the kite when I'm moving at speed. It's also useful to prevent overflying if you mess up. robinsonpr - 7-11-2014 at 12:39 AM
Good that does make sense, sounds like pretty advanced stuff though and as you say comes with experience.
I know my Venom has very slack back lines with the trim pulled all the way in, and I have to pull the bar in almost to the chicken loop in order to
turn the kite. Withthe trim all the way out the kite turns without having to pull the bar in at all. And with the trim out I think I would get
pretty tight lines if I pulled the bar in and maybe a little backstall as UnknownAX mentions.
Does that sound about right?
I never got a chance to check on the Synergy before it spanked me :D But as I bought it from a seasoned boarder I hope it's set up OK.g00fba11 - 7-11-2014 at 06:10 AM
Robin, the Synergy also has internal wing tip straps not just the center strap. Also read up on adjusting the VPC.
You can adjust the synergy to make it a bit more docile or a bit more aggressive.
Since you got your synergy from a seasoned boarder he probably has it set up to get the most performance out of the kite.robinsonpr - 7-11-2014 at 06:46 AM
Yeah I did ask him how he had it set up, he said the VPC was on the middle setting and all straps loose 😊 Feyd - 7-11-2014 at 07:03 AM
I'm with UnknownAx. A little backstall is handy, especially at speed or in high winds.
Robin's Syn set up is pretty neutral. She flies best with all internal straps loose. As Pepijn, the designer, told me the kite is designed around the
straps being loose and offers the best all round performance in that setting. In the gusty, all loosed is where it's at. I always run my VPC at the
max setting to provide fastest handling and most direct feel.
I miss my old 12m. Love my 12m Phantom 2 tho! robinsonpr - 7-11-2014 at 02:44 PM
@Feyd, when you say VPC max setting, is that the knot closer to the pulley, farthest away from the spar?
What VPC setting would you recommend for dealing with gusty winds and the stalling I've described? And of course being inexperienced and coming only
from a Venom with no VPC.
Also the comparison you made about my 13m Venom being like a 7m foil. They say the 6m Peak is comparable to something like a 9m foil. In theory are
my Venom and Peak be around the same power? (though I know you can't make a direct comparison as they fly very differently!)
If my Peak is capable of similar power to my Venom that would make me feel more comfortable about getting the Venom back out as I'm already fairly
comfortable with the Peak in 10mph with 15mph gusts.
If I've got the Venom flying with the power adjuster pulled in will it dump power as much and as quickly as the Peak does just by pushing the bar out?
I'm still amazed at how easy it is to depower the Peak if I get into trouble.Proletariat - 17-11-2014 at 10:23 PM
Just for a point of reference, I was out in punchy 10-20 winds yesterday with my 10m speed4 and it was overflying like mad with every gust if I was at
the top of the window. Bob, fly and Goofy nailed it. I solved the problem by keeping the kite moving, since backstalling (my preferred method) wasn't
working for some reason.
My takeaway? Either I need to tune the kite a bit by shortening the rear lines, or I just need to keep the kite moving (not fast!) and be less lazy
about parking it overhead. It overflow the window the least at about 10-11 O'clock, and even there I had to dive down into a sliding back stall to
bring it back where I wanted it at times.
In case you were curious I always fly my flysurfers fully sheeted out (fully powered) because I like a bit of back stall. I flew Arcs less sheeted
out, but stil mostly sheeted out unless super low winds like fly was talking about.
Anyway, with most deposed LEI, foils or Arcs, I can usually pull in the bar BEFORE it gets moving enough to over fly the window, but yesterday's winds
were just too strong for my normal solution (and I could probably use s bit of bridle tuning).
Hope that helps. You'll love the phantom. Bladerunner - 18-11-2014 at 04:50 PM
I'd LOVE some arcs tips when flying in variable inland conditions! I know I've got a couple of really sweet kites but have failed to see the good
side of them so far!!
Keep it low and go!
Arcs really work best in janky winds when you are moving. At least keep the kite moving.
NO, you will be amazed at the depower on the Peak when you see how little you get with the Venom. erratic winds - 18-11-2014 at 06:16 PM
I just need to keep the kite moving (not fast!) and be less lazy about parking it overhead.
I edited down to your advice for yourself! LOL
Our winds are way too surge-y/shifty to have your kite at 12! Took me a long time to learn it.... Only the sweet sweet arc will hang at 12 here
without shennanigans...... I wanna get a day on your phanny15 on snow this year if you'll let me... Demoknight - 4-12-2014 at 07:23 PM
Arcs are amazing in dirty wind, but only while in motion. They overfly and clamshell and flop around if you are just standing there with it parked at
12. The only time you will see an arc auto zenith like it is meant to will be in smooth beach winds. When I get onshore winds, I never even look up
at the kite because I know it is just hanging there waiting for me to tell it what to do. If I feel froggy enough to try off shore or side shore, I
have to baby it until I get moving. Once you get moving, all the problems start to fade away. If your wind is janky, just slowly rock it back and
forth over your head and keep it away from the edge of the window and you won't get any funny business. Sometimes sheeting in helps, but sometimes it
takes you for a ride up.robinsonpr - 5-12-2014 at 09:26 AM
Thanks Demoknight, I was stupidly expecting some "magic" and that an arc would somehow be able to do it's auto zenith stuff even in janky winds. I
know now from all the help on this thread that they aren't magic
I also didn't know that depower kites will often prefer to be trimmed in if the wind is light. Being a beginner and thinking "trim out = more power"
I applied this when flying my arc in light wind (10mph but with lulls) thinking that I needed more power to keep it in the air. But not realising
that trim out in light wind would choke the kite out. I think that's what led to me getting spanked because the 15 Synergy kept choking and dropping
back into the power where it would yank me when the wind caught it.
I'll give it another shot once I've got a few more hours on my new Peak to get more of a feel for flying depower, and also now I'm moving on an ATB
and buggy!
Can't wait to try my arc with wheels :D Gonna stick to the 13m Venom for starters, I've still got the heebeegeebies with the Synergy!ssayre - 5-12-2014 at 09:51 AM
I had the 13m venom and always flew in dirty wind. It performed well, but like demo said, I felt more comfortable with it while moving. I had a lot
of fun with it flying static as well, but I definitely felt like it was more risky flinging it around static than while moving. If you give the venom
a go, try it out in 12ish winds. That's enough to keep it going in the lulls but manageable in the gusts. If you crash leading edge first, I would
pull on one of the steering lines until it tacos then yank the center lines to relaunch.
Cool kite, there's something magical about launching an arc and when it takes its shape.robinsonpr - 5-12-2014 at 10:15 AM
Yeah I've just about mastered the launch if the wind isn't too shifty.
Thanks for the tip on the leading edge re-launch, I've really struggled with that in the past!
I just noticed your signature! You have a Peak 6m now? Did you pick that up recently!? Guessing it's the I? Is it pink or orange!?!?ssayre - 5-12-2014 at 10:32 AM
Yes, I just received a used Peak 1 6m in the mail yesterday. I haven't flown it, but I'm looking to this weekend. It's the pink one. My signature
is deceiving, I've owned 13 kites but currently own 6.robinsonpr - 5-12-2014 at 11:04 AM
Looking forward to hearing what you think of the Peak!!! 3shot - 5-12-2014 at 03:12 PM
I will definitely keep that in mind next time I get the Venom out!!!
Love my 12m Phantom 2 tho!
