Power Kite Forum

How to fly with long lines

bigkid - 10-12-2014 at 11:58 AM

This is a topic that should be more understood.
With that I will share what I have found.

Area, geographical location, wind, experience, kite, emergency facilities, and determination with common sense to say not today, are the determinants for long line flying.
when I began flying with long lines, I had my stomach in knots, and my hands never quit shaking.I started in a very large very open very calm area to try it out. I used twice the normal length of line, 40 meter. That same day I went to 60 meter. My arms are killing me and I had had a blast. Over that day of learning the biggest issue that I had was being patient enough to wait for the kite to catch up. Now I am NOT saying the kite is slow, as it is still traveling as fast as it does on short lines, it just takes that much longer to travel that much more distance because of the longer lines. If you configure flying on lines that are 80 feet long you travel from one side of the window to the other side you cover a hundred and sixty feet of distance, now it takes the kite 5 seconds to travel that distance.
if you use 300 foot lines your kite is traveling 600 feet distance. I refer to this as asking the kite to move, or to turn, and then putting in the hand movements and waiting for the kite to respond. You have to make your timing and according to what the kite does not what your hands do. On normal short lines you fly mostly without looking at the kite and only by you're aware of where the kite is you make your turn in the buggy approximately the same time as turning your hands moving the kite and your turn is complete. With long lines you anticipate turning in a certain distance in front of you you make a movement with your hand and then you look at the kite and you watch it. As a kite now makes its complete turn and proceed in the opposite direction you make your buggy turn and then you turn the buggy away from the kite to keep the slack tight on the lines. A little bit or a lot depending on the length of the lines.
flying a large kite on long lines in 0 to 2mph wind will require you to sign the kite, steer the buggy away from the kite, use your hands and arms to pull the line tight, are only a few of the little tricks needed to begin with. After you learn how to keep the lines tight and used the kite to pull you it's much easier to just sit and be patient and let the kite do all the work then trying to speed things up which we normally do on short lines.

Another issue that determines long lines is the area being flown at.
if the area justifies long lines from one side to the other then you could probably get away with it. I have flown on skinny beaches where my kite was up over the trees by a hundred feet and I was down on the beach and as cars passed me they didn't know where the kite was or how I was moving because they were not able to see the kite which was a hundred feet the other side of the trees just above them.

geographical location is also important as it will determine whether clean winds, gusty winds, or no wind as the determining factor. a dry lake bed on the west coast is different than a large open field in the Midwest. Offshore winds that are prominent on the East Coast bring up a different scenario in itself.

experience or lack of is key to success or failure, or the reason why the emergency facilities is needed.
I teach all my students to fly a 4 line kite before they get into a buggy or strap on a board. If they can fly there kites and put a baseball cap on over their eyes and not watch the kite 4 to 5 minutes while static flying.
From launching the kite, to flying the kite back and forth, and landing the kite, and doing it again without looking at it then I feel they can get in the buggy and proceed without having any problems worrying about the kites and focusing on the buggy and that only. once you can fly on short lines in a buggy and you can do it pretty much without thinking and move into longer lines isn't that hard.

abkayak - 10-12-2014 at 02:23 PM

interesting and understood....but i hope i never need to do this..gotta get some work done around the house..thats what i thought lite wind days were for

bigkid - 10-12-2014 at 03:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
interesting and understood....but i hope i never need to do this..gotta get some work done around the house..thats what i thought lite wind days were for

I finished my honey do list and I have way to many rc toys.
If I drive 3 hours to play at the beach you can bet your last dollar I will find a way to get down the beach. 1 run is good enough for me but no wind is not an excuse.

PistolPete - 11-12-2014 at 01:55 PM

I remember those lessons last year ... 10m FB on 88m <Link> & 24m DP on 55m <Link> , but for me it's:

FB Kites:
< 4m Kite = 20m Lines
> 4m Kite = 30m Lines

DP Kites:
< 7m = 20m Lines
7-12m = 25m Lines
>12m = 30m Lines

Found 30m Lines are about as long as I want to go on DP Kites, foil or tube. Start to loose feel/control if any longer. Line drag factor, reaction delays, etc...

Still figuring out how the really big FB Kites can fly on much longer lines extending the low/no wind range. Paying attention to line tension, planning way ahead and having enough room seem key.

Always interesting to read about the outliers, like super short line NASA Kite fliers, like the no-bridle DP large/light wind (Herb's 24m Phantom example) long liners, like how racers may use specific large FB kites on shorter lines based on wind conditions to go even faster, etc...

bigkid - 11-12-2014 at 07:52 PM

One of the issues that come up as the lines increase for depower and fix bridle is the brake lines have to increase an extra 12 inches per 100 feet, or about. Line drag is greater on the brake lines than the power.
I use PKD handles with the brake cleats that I have with 36 inch leaders to aid in fine tuning the brakes as the wind increases or decreases.
When Crazy Herb put longer lines on his 24m phanny II we had to add a foot of brake line each time he added another section of lines. If he didnt there was no depower with the bar, a bit hard if you wanted to land the kite.

Pete, I have a video somewhere with you flying that 10m in and out of the clouds at LongBeach.

BeamerBob - 12-12-2014 at 12:18 AM

The reason you have to add brake line length as the lines get longer is not because the drag is higher on the brake lines than the power lines. If that were true, the brake lines would be tight and the power lines would have slack. The reason is because the drag on all 4 lines increases equally with the additional length, effectively applying extra brake line pressure. The brake lines need a certain arc in them (kite and pilot specific) and increasing the length of the lines equally would diminish the arc in the lines.

So what you've discovered is the ratio needed to compensate for the reduced arc due to the added line length.

I've noticed the same principle when the speed increases in the buggy. The added wind speed hitting the back or brake lines adds tension to the lines effectively shortening them. If I'm setting up for a session I'm expecting runs over 55 or so, I will trim the depower strap in more than normal to compensate for the tension placed on the back lines by the apparent wind at speed.

Regarding the 24m Phanny II, it seems that the tight back lines would enhance the ability to back stall the kite to land it, but that's a lot of kite to not have any depower range left in the trim strap. I'd hope for a helper to land that monster in any kind of wind.

ssayre - 12-12-2014 at 04:39 AM


Quote:

Always interesting to read about the outliers, like super short line NASA Kite fliers,


Nasa on short line and the landboard have been a lot of fun. It's really opened up different venues for me.

This is a great thread, learning about how different line lengths effect things. Pete, I like your formula. I might have enough room to experiment with that.

Randy - 12-12-2014 at 05:20 AM

Is there a rough sort of formula or rule of thumb that one can use to determine line length v kite size. In other words, is a 5 meter on short lines (5m for ex) equal to 4m on longer (20m) lines? (I would imagine there's no hard and fast rule, but perhaps these is some sort of guide.)

bigkid - 13-12-2014 at 12:20 AM

Randy,
way to many factors in the equation. Wind speed, kite AR, type of kite, clean or gusty wind, board or buggy or static, and your skill level.
I fly mostly one type of kite, Century by PKD, so they are a true quiver which means they are similar in all sizes. That being said if everyone is in the buggy with 15m or 16m kites on 20m or 25m lines, I would get out a 8m with 65m to 75m lines and be equal with speed and ability. I can wind up the kite in a double loop and slingshot the oposite direction and be powersliding where the others are just moving.

As for the short lines on big kites, which was the fad a few years ago. Say a 16m kite on 15m to 17m lines is more for racing. You have more co trole with shorter lines with most kites. You can hold more wind also. Because the window is so short you dont build up as much power as you would on longer lines.

Now for a good one, how about a 2m kite on 60m lines in 25mph wind? To much kite? To fast to control? Way to much power? Not big enough to hold the adrenaline in your pants?
The window is 3 times the size of 20m lines, making that little window out of the question for control.
The most fun I have had was with a 1m kite on 75m lines in 20mph wind. Wikidly fast and the pull through the window was to blow your mind. Instead of flying a hummingbird on steroids it was like hanging onto a jet fighter. You dont have to try to keep up with the kite, because you have the time to keep up.

RonH - 15-12-2014 at 08:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob  
The reason you have to add brake line length as the lines get longer is not because the drag is higher on the brake lines than the power lines. If that were true, the brake lines would be tight and the power lines would have slack. The reason is because the drag on all 4 lines increases equally with the additional length, effectively applying extra brake line pressure. The brake lines need a certain arc in them (kite and pilot specific) and increasing the length of the lines equally would diminish the arc in the lines.

So what you've discovered is the ratio needed to compensate for the reduced arc due to the added line length.

I've noticed the same principle when the speed increases in the buggy. The added wind speed hitting the back or brake lines adds tension to the lines effectively shortening them. If I'm setting up for a session I'm expecting runs over 55 or so, I will trim the depower strap in more than normal to compensate for the tension placed on the back lines by the apparent wind at speed.

Regarding the 24m Phanny II, it seems that the tight back lines would enhance the ability to back stall the kite to land it, but that's a lot of kite to not have any depower range left in the trim strap. I'd hope for a helper to land that monster in any kind of wind.


And here is the dangerous part... of lines being long. (4 line on handles but i'm sure you will have the same effect on a depower too, just a little different)

We extend the lines to compensate for drag and all of a sudden you have zero ability to kill the kite if needed.

Pull on the brakes and all that happens is more power instead of being able to stop the kite from making power.

I experienced this first hand. With me holding the kite handles brakes full on, the kite did not want to stay on the ground. Sound like trouble? Nope... I refused to fly it and the kite got packed up.

bigkid - 16-12-2014 at 02:41 PM

Sorry you had a bad experiance with long lines Ron.
You spoke of holding on to the brakes and the kite didnt want to stay on the ground.....
Im sure you set up the kite and adjusted the lines before you launched the kite, right? Whether short, regular, or long lines you still have to check the setup prior to launch. To me thats a no brainer.
As for the handles, PKD makes 3 sizes of which most of the team riders in Europe use the large size on all sizes of their kites, from the smallest to the largest. This is because its easier to fly with all things the same but the kite size. Besides it gives you the most power to control the kite. Im not aware of any other manufacturers that make different length handles, except Libre who make 2 sizes. But I could be wrong.
I use the large handles for all my long lines and with the adjustable brake cleats and long line brake leaders, braking and controlling the kite isnt a problem.

But to make it perfectly clear..........long lines are not for everyone.
I cant remember how many have tried the long lines and enjoyed it, as for those that tried and hated them, 3. As for those 3, I dont see them flying anymore. Wonder where you guys are?

ssayre - 16-12-2014 at 03:03 PM

bigkid "Im not aware of any other manufacturers that make different length handles"

PL makes 2 sizes: too big and too small (IMO). The only other brand I've had are HQ and their stock handles seemed to be somewhere between the pl sizes which I liked as far as length is concerned.

USA_Eli_A - 16-12-2014 at 06:18 PM

The market says, most riders want plug and play, as well as play well with others.

Big Kid tossed me a set up, I think I put down my 12 Gt and took his 4m on 60m lines out. I wasn't surprised because I really like long lines. I've only been using super short lines on big kites for about 12 years.

The reason why I use Big kites on short lines is so that I have a very broad band low end range. So I always have a lot of get up and go in my kites.

Big Kid puts small kites on long lines and has fun.

There are actually a lot of people that kite IN-Land that use super long lines to keep the kite "happy"....

RonH - 16-12-2014 at 08:27 PM

All I'm going to say is there is a limit to how long the lines can be without doing in your ability to control the kite...

The kite I thought about flying was on lines that were too long for it's size... Handles would have been double their size to control it and my arms just are not that long!

Anyone wanting to try out long lines - be very careful and check everything.

Start over for every kite you own. Do not assume that the same setup will work for all your kites - even if they are the same in different sizes!


Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
Sorry you had a bad experiance with long lines Ron.
You spoke of holding on to the brakes and the kite didnt want to stay on the ground.....
Im sure you set up the kite and adjusted the lines before you launched the kite, right? Whether short, regular, or long lines you still have to check the setup prior to launch. To me thats a no brainer.
As for the handles, PKD makes 3 sizes of which most of the team riders in Europe use the large size on all sizes of their kites, from the smallest to the largest. This is because its easier to fly with all things the same but the kite size. Besides it gives you the most power to control the kite. Im not aware of any other manufacturers that make different length handles, except Libre who make 2 sizes. But I could be wrong.
I use the large handles for all my long lines and with the adjustable brake cleats and long line brake leaders, braking and controlling the kite isnt a problem.

But to make it perfectly clear..........long lines are not for everyone.
I cant remember how many have tried the long lines and enjoyed it, as for those that tried and hated them, 3. As for those 3, I dont see them flying anymore. Wonder where you guys are?

indigo_wolf - 16-12-2014 at 10:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
Im not aware of any other manufacturers that make different length handles, except Libre who make 2 sizes. But I could be wrong.


FWIW:

Ozone:
3 sizes for the Ozone Pro Handles (Black sanded EVA) (27cm, 34.5 cm and 42 cm)

3 sizes for the Ozone Pro Composite (carbon fiber with black & red grips) - 35cm, 40 cm and 45 cm.

The Pro Composites use the European attachment style for the brake leaders. They comes out from the very bottom to the handles to minimize tangles during fast/aggressive control inputs.



ATB,
Sam

bigkid - 17-12-2014 at 05:38 AM

You never disappoint Sam.:thumbup:
thanks.

BeamerBob - 17-12-2014 at 08:14 AM

Peter Lynn has the Allstar and Longhorn handles in small, medium, and large. Their standard handles come in small and large. Incidentally, I have a set of the Allstar handles and they are very nice with amsteel leaders and a more comfortable covering. The leaders are also knotted and spliced at the attachment points and have a sleeve over the power leaders at the handle for abrasion protection for your fingers. Top drawer equipment.

Brian has a set of the small standard PL handles he used in his record run. I used the same lines and handles for a previous pb run and for that purpose they are plenty big and don't get in the way. Incidentally, his strop only had about 8 inches of space between knots which concerned me until I got out and rolling with the setup. At high speeds, you just don't yank on the handles that much.

Longer handles wouldn't give more power to control a kite on long lines because the lever is longer. But the extra throw the long handles give would be welcome to control a kite on spongy feeling extra long lines.

bigkid - 17-12-2014 at 08:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob  
Longer handles wouldn't give more power to control a kite on long lines because the lever is longer. But the extra throw the long handles give would be welcome to control a kite on spongy feeling extra long lines.

a statement of profession or real life experience?

BeamerBob - 17-12-2014 at 09:10 AM

If we first assume that the handles are pivoting on the strop, and we're merely talking about applying pressure on the brake lines then physics and geometry would prove that a longer lever has less power than a shorter lever. You could diminish the lever part of the issue by gripping lower down on the handles, but that would only approach or equal the power you would be able to apply to short handles.

If by "power" you mean the ability to control the kite due to the longer throw of the handles then I totally agree with you.

bigkid - 17-12-2014 at 09:13 AM

Professionaly speaking.:thumbup: