Power Kite Forum

Is it time to squash the "extreme sport" label?

shaggs2riches - 20-12-2014 at 07:32 PM

I've been itching real hard to kite, but the way the season has gone, I can just tell people about it, or read in jealousy as other people get to enjoy the winter. (Really bad snow conditions tha looked great for one day) in my readings, and talking to others, I have noticed the trend of labelling kiting as an extreme sport. Naturally when I first started, I sheepishly called it that too. But as I got more experienced, I realized that aside from inherent risks, I really wasn't doing anything all that extreme. Heck if I strap into my snowboard and go barrelling down a ski hill, I feel more extreme than when I kite. It seems to me anyway, that the "extreme" label has really been a mislabeling for probably 75% of the average kiters, who just cruise along and don't attempt any fancy manoeuvres. It also makes me wonder if that type of label does nothing more than keep people scared of trying out the activity, or hinders access to certain areas, because of fear that it will bring bad things. What do you guys think of this?

Shaggs

MeatÐriver - 20-12-2014 at 08:27 PM

I think kiting is only as extreme as you want/let it be. It can be as calm as walk in the park or an adrenaline fueled dash on the edge of survivability. Look at the PUSH kiting crew, that's pretty extreme to me... at least the kitesurfers have the ability to crash on water! As for me and what I enjoy, I would say I partake in an "intense sport"... at least for now anyways.

Things are all relative, right? If Zorbing, SUP'ing, mountain biking, etc are often considered "extreme sports"...... then maybe kiting is. Even in those other sports mentioned it all really depends what level you take it too.

TL;DR: I just kind of sucks that we, as a people, have to label things. Maybe it's just our nature.

shaggs2riches - 20-12-2014 at 08:58 PM

That is basically my thinking really. You can take so many other activities that are considered normal and tame, and make into an extreme sport, but generally speaking the base root activity is really not that extreme. Labelling it an extreme sport seems to give it a misrepresentation when trying to introduce someone to it. You hear extreme, and suddenly people get images of broke bones or worse.

MeatÐriver - 20-12-2014 at 09:03 PM

True.

Ha! For some reason this has me thinking of Joey Chestnut. Anyone can easily take the most common, boring, everyday activity and push it as far as they are willing.

hashtag:EXTREME

skimtwashington - 20-12-2014 at 09:05 PM

What is an EXTREME sport?

One definition that may be accepted by most:
...is a sport perceived as having a high level of inherent danger.. These activities often involve speed, height, a high level of physical exertion, and highly specialized gear...

I don't feel Power kiting(kite surfing, kite buggying, kite skiing...) is an extreme sport in general....
..... but there are 'extreme' variations in many sports. And this sport can become - in situations-exactly that. Extreme.

The term 'Extreme'(in sport) seemed to start to appear and in the late 80's and then snowball into popularity in the 90's.


A truer extreme sport for example- and where the term may have first gained foothold?...

....There is a genre of skiing called 'Extreme Skiing' and this may even hold the birth of the term you talk about now in this post. The sport ,if you don't know, involves skiing things so steep that falling is not a good option. In some cases..the definition has been used: "Extreme skiing is ...if you fall...you die".

But there are even different extremes in extreme skiing! So that is not a true definition. You still do not want to fall on such exposed steep pitches with rocks below, crevases..etc. Hell...the climb to get up to where you descend can be dangerous!(if not helicopter dropped at top).

The popular viewed sport of Extreme Skiing played a role in the history of this phraseology I believe....viewed by many in popular Warren Miller ski films as one source. And ski films elsewhere... at video stores( on VHS tape!)

The North Face company even may have helped promote the term 'extreme' and even used it in labels of it's clothing/technical wear. I have an old 'NF Extreme' ski jacket as example.) But they were not anywhere as popular and massive a marketed and popular company as today. Today every other family has NF jacket wearers..grandma too, even! Isn't that extreme!:lol:
But I digress...

Anyway...
Our sport is certainly more dangerous than golf...I can tell you that!


' Extreme' has invaded our sports culture , clothing, commercial products, advertisement and our speech. Although it lingers commercially in advertising and thus in our speech(I thought the popularity in using it for advertisement had died down quite a bit over the last decade or two)...it will forever be part of the sports culture as growth and popularity of dangerous X-games type sports and advancing thrill sports, or even extentions of the limits of many sports lends itself to the term 'EXTREME'.

Feyd - 21-12-2014 at 05:35 AM

In my estimation, as ski mount Washington points out, the whole "extreme" lable came about initially through alpine skiing. First in the mid '80s with Warren Miller then in the late 80s Greg Stump really put the term into play with his series of ski movies. Then the marketing geeks got involved and perpetuated it and really gelled when K2 skis, while sponsoring Scott Schmit and Glen Plake produced a ski designed for extreme skiing and actually named the "Extreme". (Which BTW sold like crazy). Then through the 90s it just progressed. To some extent nothing more than marketing, but there was some legit tangible sports evolution that could fall under the liable of " extreme". Which opened up venues like the X-games. Which not only showcase the extreme aspects of a given sport but also promoted and inspired progression of a sport.

As a result, the liability climate has changed in this country as well. This has further opened up the way for progression. Now, what was considered "extreme" just 10-15 years ago, is considered commonplace. For example I build mountain bike trails. I designed and built a network for a local DH park about 10 yrs ago. The trails I've built would have been considered "unrideable" in the early days of mountain biking. They would have been "extreme". But today with the change of mindsets, skill sets and technology, these trails are technical but not uncommon. And they are ridden by kids as young as 9 and old as 65.

We try to tone down the extreme angle of snowkiting. We even point out on our website that inspite of the marketing stating "The latest extreme winter sport" it really isntany more extreme than skiing. Sure, you can huck your carcass, hammer across a lake at nearly 80mph, hillside glide 200' up or cross Greenland with a kite but most of our clients just want to cruise around. Essentially the equivalent to skiing groomers at the local mountain. Most of the kiters I know are in their 50'-late 60's. Not really the extreme athlete demographic.

Kite sport like any sport is only as extreme as the participant makes it. Some time that participant make it extreme unintentionally due to lack of skill and/or expirience.

We tell our clients that snowkiting is an "alternative sport with extreme elements".

B-Roc - 21-12-2014 at 07:10 AM

I just had to have my life insurance policy re-issued and I was interviewed by my agent and later by someone on the phone. Both recited a litany of "extreme activities" to which I had to respond "yes I participate" or "no I don't". Glad to say that kiting was not on the list. Paragliding, sky diving, bull riding and moto X still on the list in case you're wondering.

@ skimtwashington...FWIW I credit more of the extreme skiing scene to Greg Stump than Warren Miller but clearly Warren was in the film scene first but Greg really blew it open with Blizzard of Aahs. I do think yours is a valid analogy as that was around the time we started hearing Xtreme and then the X games popped up.

bigkid - 21-12-2014 at 07:10 AM

This is one of the moments in my life I have to BITE MY TONGUE OFF.
I guess this is time to learn from those that have all the knowledge. So if I understand correctly, just putting down the beach isnt extreme until fhe life ending OBE happens, right?

Hanggliding, paragliding, dirtbike racing, mountain climbing, skydiving, cliff diving, and a dozen other activities I have enjoyed over the years are by no way as damaging as the putting down the beach ride with a 2m kite in my buggy that took away everything I owned and cherished.
Time to rid the world of the misconception of extream sport kiting. You have your oppinion and I have mine. Hang around and in 20 years tell Spencer the pain in his heal is all in his head. Tell him he screwed up and should have ........ Funny how everyone who WASN'T on the beach the day I was hurt HAD ALL KINDS OF STUPID, OFF THE WALL, IGNORANT, COMENTS OF KNOWLEDGE.
It wont ever happen to me.
Can anyone say with an honest responce they got into kites, buggies, and boards because it was safe? Because Grandpa does it everyday after his prune juice breakfast, and before he goes for a walk down the old folks home hallway with his walker, was the reason I began kite bugging. Seriously? You all got into the sport because of the danger and the thrill of what you seen others doing. Being a guy the opportunity of joining in with the other guys was more than you could stand.

Maybe your right, its not an extream sport, until you get hurt. Hell, morphine is just a pill right? I take vitamins everyday, whats 190mg of morphine do besides allow me to crawl out of bed to pee every morning instead of using a bottle my wife has to empty.

Keep telling yourself its not an extream sport, When you post how you got hurt or one of us watch as you get hurt, dont think we are laughing with you, we are laughing at you.

Like anything else, this is my opinion. It rates up there with everyone elses opinion.

B-Roc - 21-12-2014 at 07:15 AM

Not poking a bear and while your accident was terrible, it was an accident. IMO, just because the injury was extreme doesn't mean the activity is. If that were the case, walking up or down stairs for anyone over the age of 80 should be classified as an extreme sport as an accidental fall could lead to a life threatening injury. Also, many more people die each year in car accidents and slips in the shower than kiting. Neither taking a shower to get ready for work nor commuting to work is considered extreme though both can cause extreme injuries. I think we need to separate the severity of the accident from the intent of the activity.

While elements of this sport can be extreme they are generally controllable (ie going out underpowered or not at all). While we can't control the wind we can set reasonable limits. Accidents happen in all aspects of life but words have meaning and I'd hate to see this sport thought of as "extreme" to all. Think of what that would mean when seeking permits for festivals on public land or private land. Think of what that would mean to a retailer who sells a kite to someone online and they are later hurt and blame the retailer. Think also of current events and the protests in our country. If one group sought to obtain a permit for a peaceful protest and another group to organize an "extreme" protest, who do you think would have a better chance of getting what they want?

As leaders of this sport or kiters with years of tenure and experience, we should represent the safe and recreational aspect of this activity and teach others to respect the power of the wind so they can enjoy the activity and avoid an extreme injury.

Just my $0.02 and not meant to minimize the injury or pain caused to others. I can't walk where you've walked but do try and hope others do as well to learn from your unfortunate example.


skimtwashington - 21-12-2014 at 08:36 AM

I think Chris makes a fair presentation,

Quote:

We tell our clients that snowkiting is an "alternative sport with extreme elements".
.

What are you presenting to the client?

To me it implies an exciting sport with some risk, those elements existing not necessarily at the fringes but tangible or just under the surface throughout it's spectrum......
and thus implies much caution at the same time. But that's me.

Who knows what other minds or those with no kiting experience get from this statement? But it's not critical. The caution and safety is certainly all talked about at length anyway.



No one is disagreeing on the caution, the danger, making smart choices in this sport.

What is in disagreement is the semantics and use of the term 'Extreme'. How important is this label and what are the effects?

The implications for such a label is different for insurer's, marketers and for sports enthusiasts talking amongst themselves.


So, to answer the title of this post...Is it time to squash the "extreme sport" label?

I can't say. To me it's moot. It's just a label.... one by it's single word- without details-doesn't effect me. May effect the person writing , or not wanting to write your insurance policy though...:o





BeamerBob - 21-12-2014 at 08:53 AM

Any innocuous activity can have something go wrong and have a life changing or life threatening accident. Imagine a family mountain bike stroll along a wooded path and then a slip of a front wheel sends a rider to break his neck on a tree.

The thing about what we do that edges towards extreme is that the wind and kite are not totally in our control. While skiing or boarding on a mountain, it's almost always possible to stop and control the mountain and snow. On a bike, you can almost always put the brakes on and stop or choose to go at a slower more controlled pace. As long as we use a kite for power, there is always a chance that something can go wrong. That can turn extreme in an instant as Jeff can attest.

Riding a buggy at 35 mph on a beach feels pretty extreme to me. Kite powered by wind I can't totally control or predict and no other way to go that fast without a mostly controllable engine of some sort. Riding at Ivanpah, going 35 mph is almost never extreme but it would be to someone that didn't know what they were doing. And it could turn extreme for anyone at any skill level in an instant.

There are sessions I've had at Ivanpah and El Mirage that could only be described as extreme. I felt that the level I was riding was within my skill set even if I was going beyond previous speeds. I had used and gained confidence in the equipment in lesser conditions. The risks and preparation were calculated and on top of that, I was lucky.

I like Feyd's description: "Alternative sport with extreme elements".

ssayre - 21-12-2014 at 09:25 AM

This sport can be enjoyed with virtually no risk. You can do almost all types of land based kiting flying off of handles and unhooked. It's the users that make it "extreme". We can't help but try and make the next session more exciting than the last. This leads to hooking in to be able to harness more of the wind's power. We become too comfortable, then accidents happen. It's really not that different from a lot of pastimes and sports and in my opinion.

Bladerunner - 21-12-2014 at 10:51 AM

It's probably important to note that gear has developed making the sport safer and more beginner friendly.

I have a TON of respect for the real pioneers of the sport. Corey, Wainman, Flash Austin, Chasta and all were definitely " extreme " .

Like many others, I present the answer to folks who ask me using snow skiing as an example. It can be as safe or extreme as you wish. There is always an element of risk and if you aren't the type of person who enjoys that then this is not the sport for you.

I think if you enter this sport you should be prepared to deal with some kind of injury. Especially if you want to progress. I have sprained my ankle and broken a bone in my hand. ( both injuries bother me even today ) The feeling gun shy is normal.

In my journey I decided that I had reached the level of progression I shot for going in. I don't chase the high winds or higher heights now. I try to reach the next day instead of the next level as my goal. It took some mental adjustment but I am enjoying kiting as much and more now. I am not out to be an " extreme " kiter anymore. I prefer to be the guy who makes it look so effortless and safe that I draw more small men, older folks and women into the sport.

shaggs2riches - 21-12-2014 at 11:41 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
This is one of the moments in my life I have to BITE MY TONGUE OFF.
I guess this is time to learn from those that have all the knowledge. So if I understand correctly, just putting down the beach isnt extreme until fhe life ending OBE happens, right?

Hanggliding, paragliding, dirtbike racing, mountain climbing, skydiving, cliff diving, and a dozen other activities I have enjoyed over the years are by no way as damaging as the putting down the beach ride with a 2m kite in my buggy that took away everything I owned and cherished.
Time to rid the world of the misconception of extream sport kiting. You have your oppinion and I have mine. Hang around and in 20 years tell Spencer the pain in his heal is all in his head. Tell him he screwed up and should have ........ Funny how everyone who WASN'T on the beach the day I was hurt HAD ALL KINDS OF STUPID, OFF THE WALL, IGNORANT, COMENTS OF KNOWLEDGE.
It wont ever happen to me.
Can anyone say with an honest responce they got into kites, buggies, and boards because it was safe? Because Grandpa does it everyday after his prune juice breakfast, and before he goes for a walk down the old folks home hallway with his walker, was the reason I began kite bugging. Seriously? You all got into the sport because of the danger and the thrill of what you seen others doing. Being a guy the opportunity of joining in with the other guys was more than you could stand.

Maybe your right, its not an extream sport, until you get hurt. Hell, morphine is just a pill right? I take vitamins everyday, whats 190mg of morphine do besides allow me to crawl out of bed to pee every morning instead of using a bottle my wife has to empty.

Keep telling yourself its not an extream sport, When you post how you got hurt or one of us watch as you get hurt, dont think we are laughing with you, we are laughing at you.

Like anything else, this is my opinion. It rates up there with everyone elses opinion.



Make no mistake that I have nor ever had no intentions of downplaying yours or anyone's injuries, from accidents related to the sport. I apologize if I gave you that impression. I have extreme respect for you and what you have had to endure. I can only hope that it will never happen to me; but, won't ever say that, "it won't happen to me". I merely mean to point out that whenever I explain to people what I do, a lot of time, I get a comment that makes it seem like I am jumping off of cliffs. I usually explain that there are definite risks to the sport, but you can drastically lower the risk levels, to make the activity relatively safe. The risk is always there, and that cannot be ignored. The same can be said for a lot of other activities, that don't give the same vibe to people when you talk to them about it.

riffclown - 21-12-2014 at 01:45 PM

The interesting part is.. Everyone is right.. There is an inherent risk to any activity. It's up to each individual to match kite size to ability to conditions.. I've been yanked off my feet recently as well. Because:
1) I didn't double and triple check everything
2) I didn't have a "small" enough kite so i went with what I had..

The kite got off the ground just enough to power up, froze in the window and sent me tumbling..

We defend our sport aggressively and harp safety first, because we don't want a newbie making headlines in the worst sort of way and further decreasing the places we can ride.. Our sport and the many facets of it have risks and different levels of risks associated with it.. What looks spectacular almost certainly has more risks.. But if the risks aren't a draw factor then why do we spend so much time telling newbies that the kite to start with isn't the kite they will be jumping with? Each and every one of us want the freedom to be as extreme as we like without others ruining our opportunity.

Power kiting can be extreme if you make it so by:
1) taking the chance
2) underestimating the kite
3) overestimating our ability
4) not assessing the conditions properly
5) just plain going for it.

Individually we each represent the sport in its totality whether we participate in that part or not. I often get asked about the water aspects of the sport even though I've never done it I try to present the facts I've gained from here yet point them to a person that can help them learn safely. You're an ambassador to the myriad sports of power kiting.. Be honest with yourself and don't forget it when talking to the public..

An ambulance ride from Jibe, Wildwood or Ivanpah would not be a good thing for any of us.. OR FOR POWERKITING.. We already have enough places we can't fly..

skimtwashington - 21-12-2014 at 02:46 PM

I mentioned golf before and think it time to inject a little ..uh..diversion- and keep it light at this time in the thread ...

So here:









shaggs2riches - 21-12-2014 at 03:00 PM

Could have been interesting watching some of those shots take place. :P

soliver - 21-12-2014 at 10:22 PM

Something I can tell you from recent experience is that it really doesn't matter at all what you call it. Extreme, alternative, exciting, controlled, uncontrolled, etc etc etc... It is something that we have designed and honed to harness the unseen forces of nature in an attempt to have it do our will ( ie lift, move, go fast, etc etc.) it was conceived, designed, and is still being perfected in the attempt to do those very things. Whether you CHOOSE to participate in risky behavior with it or not does not supersede why it was created.

I see guns in the same light. DO NOT MISINTERPRETED WHAT I AM SAYING. (I am in NO way advocating against constitutional gun rights). It is difficult to make anti-gun fanatics understand that guns can be used safely and effectively by right of their explicit purpose for design. Whether as a tool of the hunt or of the battle field, a gun is made to tear and mame flesh, and ultimately in many cases to kill. That was its designed purpose regardless of what YOU do with it.

For this reason I see the "getting injured in a car accident" or "80+ person walking down the side walk" argument as completely null and meaningless in that neither cars nor orthopedic walking shoes were designed with the intent of injury. YES, they both take injury into consideration, but the intention of both is to get their user from point A to point B. So in spite of the POSSIBILITY of injury, these things are NOT an expectation.

What's the point?... I feel like the thrill seeking inherent in what do (regardless of what level we take it to) embodies the intent that is built into what our gear was designed to accomplish... So saying that (as my wife told me last week) "I might cut my finger off scrapbooking" seriously downplays the risk involved in what we do. Because a freak gust of wind may not lead to a slip of the cutting board in the scrapbook studio, but it can and does play a role in the reason I'm sitting on my couch with my left foot up and a prescription for oxycodone on the shelf in the kitchen.

Look at it like this, I was not 100% up to snuff on all the safety precautions as i should have been, but I was not doing something I hadn't done 100 times before. I wasn't looking to get 90mph to beat Brian Holgate's record; I figured I'd hit 20-24mph at best and now I'm due for surgery on Tuesday and 8 weeks of recovery.

Is it an "extreme sport" or not? Who really cares? The point is that regardless of what you call it, it can screw you up six ways to Sunday whether you intend for it to or not and regardless of what you are doing with it.

ssayre - 23-12-2014 at 03:08 PM

I'm getting ready to hit the stores and do some extreme Christmas shopping :roll:

riffclown - 23-12-2014 at 03:08 PM

You might want to be in an Extreme Hurry.. :D

vaultingbassist - 29-12-2014 at 08:05 AM

Offering up my 2 cents:

I honestly think it is pretty fair to label powerkiting as an extreme sport. While it is certainly true that this sport can be done in a very mild fashion, I think it helps to look at this sport amongst all others to see where it falls. By this I mean that when comparing kiting to BASE jumping it's very mild, but when we compare it to baseball it is rather intense.

I guess for me I've taken up a rather loose definition for "extreme sports" and sometimes just let it mean obscure or adventurous. Rock climbing is probably the most "extreme" sport I've sport I've partaken in, just because the stakes (or bolts :D) are so high. While the stakes aren't as high in kiting, there is still a very real element of "I could lose control of this situation at any moment." That is true of things like rock climbing, SCUBA diving, and other sports that rely on mother nature cooperating or a high level of gear safety. For me, most sports with an obvious element of "I could lose control" can be considered extreme.

It also helps to keep perspective on all elements of the sport, as this board seems to be primarily buggiers. I do feel that while the landings are softer, there is an added element of risk with kiting in the water, as situations that get out of control can very quickly become life threatening due to the nature of being in water.

Ultimately, this is a sport where the general public will see videos of big air and crazy tricks and think, "man, that is insane!" but at the same time, would likely find even the more mild aspects of the sport too intense. I know that a good portion of say, my parents, aunts, uncles, and even people my age don't like these kinds of sports, and prefer things like basketball or soccer. If the majority of people are into sports like that, then what we do is probably still extreme to them, even if we know how much more extreme it could be.

soliver - 29-12-2014 at 10:23 AM

I like your assessment VB; it makes good sense in my mind to take the stakes into account when you assess the risk of something. If you mess up when playing basketball or baseball, most often the stakes are low (I know you can break a leg or whatever playing those sports, but its not necessarily inherent in their nature) as opposed to kiting where messing up can more often have much hi her stakes.

I still say though, that what its called is not so much as important as how it has the potential to screw you up... i can tell you from experience.

Bladerunner - 30-12-2014 at 09:33 AM

I almost forgot but once again the most extreme part of my recent snowkite trip was driving there and back on winter roads.

WAY more scared for my life on the highway than I was out on the lake in sub 10kt winds.

Even in good weather driving I-5 down to Oregon is more extreme / dangerous than the kiting.

flyguy0101 - 30-12-2014 at 01:28 PM

I never do Extreme sports.....I tell all my clients that i do personal adventure sports, yes i like adrenaline and i like being on the edge of MY limits but i think that doing anything extreme is doing it to a level that you are not capable of. As for paying the cost of admission (ie getting hurt) it comes with any adventure sport- if you want to be safe go to an amusement park.

Activity - Injury
Mtn Bike - dislocated shoulder, multiple stitches
Road Bike- 2nd degree burns/ road rash
Whitewater Kayak- 17 stitches under my eye (damn underwater rock)
Kiting- Chance fracture of t-11 (yeah literally broke my back in half)

Interesting fact - never broke a bone or went under anestisha(sp?) until i was 38 and never had stitches until i went to college

So yes even though i have been hurt in my adventures, i would still say the sport is not extreme its what you do that might be extreme- hope we all have tight lines in the new year
Scott