Power Kite Forum - Flying tip, you can get yanked off your feet with an Apex

Flying tip, you can get yanked off your feet with an Apex

Chrisz - 31-12-2014 at 04:23 PM

Wow! I think the National Weathr Service was a bit off on the wind forecast today. They said we had 17 mph winds with gusts to 28, I have not had much of a problem using my 5.5m Apex in that wind before.

I was out for about a 1/2 hour or so making my way back, I got yanked up by a gust faster then I than I could blink. Thankfully it was only a 2 second gust and it put me back down before I got too far off the ground.

I got maybe 5 feet of air up then yanked sideways I made a ski side down landing but my binding released on Impact, then of course I landed on top of my ski. I think I will have a small bruise on my shin above my boot and below my knee pad, no big deal.

What kind of gust do you think grabed me? I am guessing 30+ mph, I don't think I will go out when it's that gusty again. I never thought that little 5.5m Apex would pick me up.

soliver - 31-12-2014 at 05:18 PM

Any kite can pick you up... It's justa matter of how hard you land.. Worst accident I know of was from a kiter (who we all know & love) being snatched up by 2.5m FB.

My accident recently was from being lofted by a 5.5m Reactor. Taking me up about 15 ft.. So yes, that little 5.5m can pick you up.

ssayre - 31-12-2014 at 05:32 PM

Very very very important to respect all kites. By the way, I've seen several snowkite videos with people doing some respectable jumps using the apex so I wouldn't necessarily dismiss it as non-lifty as you well know now. It's better to have the attitude that all kites lift. On the flip side, lifty kites aren't magic if you want to jump. You still have to have the skill and guts to fly them in wind conditions that facilitate jumping.

Chrisz - 1-1-2015 at 08:46 AM

National Weather Service report for 12-31-2014

WIND (MPH) HIGHEST WIND SPEED 29 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION W (260) HIGHEST GUST SPEED 35 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION W (270) AVERAGE WIND SPEED 19.

Ok it was windy yesterday, worse than I thought... Today doesnt look much better 10 to15 with gusts to 25. :mad:

yeti - 1-1-2015 at 11:06 AM

Had an Apex 3 (5m) out to demo to someone in a gusty weather situation last week and even with the front lines shortened 3" more than the most depowered stock setting, and the trim all the way in, it still picked me up a couple feet static flying. Add forward momentum like on skis and you can get lift whenever you want it. Small kites (especially apexes) don't float or glide very well, so be careful!

I have put this tip somewhere else on the forum, but feel free to open the dirt-outs on the wingtips in strong wind. This does reduce the turn speed and responsiveness a little, but (I think by preventing full inflation) it also reduces the efficiency of the wing slightly so that it doesn't pull or lift as hard. Note that I did also get lifted when I had the wingtips open, so it's not a magic solution for flying in stupid fast wind.

Chrisz - 1-1-2015 at 12:29 PM

Oping the dirt outs is a good Idea, I would of never thought of that. I don't really need to go out in that much wind, it just kills me to sit in the house and watch the wind blow on my day off.

I am so spoiled with what I have out my front door, I feel guilty if I let a day go by without taking advantage of it, so instead of kiting we went snowmobiling.

John Holgate - 1-1-2015 at 10:46 PM

Quote:

I am so spoiled with what I have out my front door, I feel guilty

And so you should. It's 41.7 degrees C here at the moment and everything is the color of dead straw. Did I mention the horrible hot gusty wind? :D

rtz - 2-1-2015 at 01:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

to sit in the house and watch the wind blow on my day off.

Maybe consider another kite just for those higher winds?

Chrisz - 2-1-2015 at 07:29 AM

I thought about a smaller kite:D.... I think my other 1/2 would kill me, I not sure he is over the Frenzy I just bought and have not gotten a chance to fly yet due to the crazy wind. I should get a chance to fly that Frenzy today, static anyway, wind is only suppose to be at 5mph.

I want a LEI for summer so I need to save a few bucks for a kite and a board

Feyd - 3-1-2015 at 05:56 AM

Smaller kite would help although the 5m is a lot of fun in those winds. When you have wind or gust factor like that kite positioning is important. For example never set the kite at 12:00. Like the others have said any kite will lift you, but small kites don't glide and even big kites can still drop you after the gust passes. And always rig for the gusts.

Glad you're okay.

Chrisz - 3-1-2015 at 03:12 PM

Yep, exactly what happened.

I was preparing to make a turn bringing the kite up to about 11:00 ish, high enough to make a down ward loop the kite got all crazy zig zaged and shoot up to 12:00. When I saw what was about to happen I grabbed a hand full of stearing line by the time the kite actually turned I was already picked up, the kite came back down then pulled me side ways and I hit the ground.

Most of the time when I am cruiseing aroud I have the kite pretty low on the window, but you half of turn around and come back at some time, what is the best way to make a turn with out getting the kite too close to the the 12:00 position?

yeti - 3-1-2015 at 08:43 PM

Start heading downwind as you bring it up to 12 to make the transition. If you're heading downwind at 10mph as you pass it over head, then a 40mph gust is actually a 30mph gust. ** physics

Or at least that's what I'd do.

If you ever look at someone's GPS data you'll see the little loops at the end of every tack, which is basically this. Might be a little safer and helps keep up the speed as you head back the other way. If you're worried, just transition the kite to the other side as quickly and as smoothly as you can while moving downwind a little. In some sense, the kite follows your heading. 10-11 or 1-2 as you start moving downwind, 12 and you're moving directly downwind momentarily, and then you complete the turn as you bring the kite back the other way. Hope this explanation makes enough sense. I don't have videos or diagrams.

The pros here who may be certified in instructing this sort of thing will probably lay down the best info, but that's my input for what it's worth.

** even going a few mph downwind gives you a pretty good safety margin compared to standing still or otherwise not heading down wind. This is due to the energy available in the relative speed of the wind being related to the cube of the wind speed (or force being related to the square of speed). In strong wind where you might have an unexpected gust, +1mph is much worse than +1mph in light wind. Likewise, a little bit of extra downwind travel can dump a good percentage of the power when you're using a small kite in high wind.

soliver - 3-1-2015 at 10:19 PM

Humph... I kinda though that was what I was doing a couple of weeks back when I got lofted and subsequently broke my heel... must've missed something somewhere... seen it done before and have done it before (known as the "suicide Jibe") and still not sure what I did wrong... I was moving along probably not but about 15mph, but didn't feel comfortable doing a downturn, so I brought the kite high (possibly too high) and turned the buggy downwind to do essentially exactly what you said, Yeti... next thing I know, I'm looking down and thinking "oh cr@p, this is going to hurt" and it did,... I'm still wondering what maneuver I did wrong to end up getting lofted, and hurt... badly. I've gone over it and over it and all I can figure out is that I just happen to be the guy this time who thought he knew what he was doing and then got hurt.

I can say that in hind sight that hitting the brakes is what brought me down too fast, though I'm pretty sure I was thinking that i didn't want to get any higher

Me and my new friend Oxycodone have been talking it over a lot over the last week :o

Feyd - 4-1-2015 at 06:20 AM

Down loop. If its gusty, disengage your edge, flatten the ski to allow yourself to drift downwind to bleed off power and downloop the kite. Allows for redirection without risk of lofting. Be sure to allow downwind drift otherwise the down loop will build a ton of power.

Check 3:40 for an example. http://youtu.be/yogetx86f-8

As Yeti points out, allow yourself a little downwind drift and take the power out of the kite. It's a common mistake to try not to drift downwind but you can easily regain the lost real estate after you've made your turn.

Downloops can also be used to snap a faster turn in light winds or when racing. Simply turn the skis more aggressively and engage the edge after your skis turn to hold your line and get power out of the kite.

Underpowered on a 9m Phantom 2. See 2:40. Using downloops to get more power out of the kite. http://youtu.be/H-SYGs-LQdE

Chrisz - 4-1-2015 at 08:55 AM

Those are some nice loops! How do you get those kites to loop so tight?

I was not bleading off any speed, I was having fun being sling shot out of the turns... won't do that again, at least not when it is that windy.

I finall got that Frenzy out yesterday for a couple of hours before the winds got cranked up to 20+ again, when I get a chance to convert the go pro footage I post my thoughts Frenzy vs Apex.

Good advice guy's, I rarely get to see or talk to any one who flys a kite around here to ask questions.

Feyd - 4-1-2015 at 10:01 AM

Thanks! Peter Lynn Phantom 2's have a good turn rate and I have the strength to muscle them into giving me more. That little purple 9m is a dang sports car. :D

Glad you're getting out on the new Frenzy. I think you made the right choice with that kite and I think you're going to love it. Looking forward to the feedback from someone newish to the sport and evolving from their first beginner/touring kite to something a bit more "sporty"

yeti - 4-1-2015 at 10:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

Humph... I kinda though that was what I was doing a couple of weeks back when I got lofted and subsequently broke my heel... must've missed something somewhere... seen it done before and have done it before (known as the "suicide Jibe") and still not sure what I did wrong... I was moving along probably not but about 15mph, but didn't feel comfortable doing a downturn, so I brought the kite high (possibly too high) and turned the buggy downwind to do essentially exactly what you said, Yeti... next thing I know, I'm looking down and thinking "oh cr@p, this is going to hurt" and it did,... I'm still wondering what maneuver I did wrong to end up getting lofted, and hurt... badly. I've gone over it and over it and all I can figure out is that I just happen to be the guy this time who thought he knew what he was doing and then got hurt.

I can say that in hind sight that hitting the brakes is what brought me down too fast, though I'm pretty sure I was thinking that i didn't want to get any higher

Me and my new friend Oxycodone have been talking it over a lot over the last week :o

No technique is guaranteed safe 100% of the time, but I suppose if you're really trying to avoid getting picked up, what Feyd says is probably the correct way to handle it. I've only downlooped to turn more aggressively in light wind, it would obviously prevent lift better than bringing the kite over the top. In the scenario where you get a really big gust while doing this, I feel like there's a chance of just getting pulled off an edge and onto your face. For me it would probably depend on the general conditions.

I know I've been picked up unintentionally before, but the bar is all the way out when it happens so I've never been brought up more than 3 or 4 feet off the ground, and if I was really nervous about it I'd be pulling the bar back in to land on the way down. I feel like I've learned some of the muscle memory from jumping on water, so if it happens, hopefully it will all work out for me and I won't break anything. Would rather just avoid unexpected jumps entirely though.

ssayre - 4-1-2015 at 10:50 AM

For awhile, in the buggy, I was raising the kite out of the power zone in a hard gust to control it's power. That works sometimes, but on a decent enough gust that seemed to lead to lofting. Now, I have been practicing leaving the kite low and forward and turning downwind then hard upwind. This does a couple of things for me. This usually results in a controlled slide which munches a ton of power out of the gust and you and the kite are now pointed at an upwind angle which takes more power to go at a slower pace. I'm not sure this would translate well with skis or even if my advice is good, but it seems to be working for me.

If I have a decent head of steam and I need to turn, I will do this prior to the turn to eat up some of the momentum then do a fast upturn or downturn with myself pointed downwind like the others have said.