Frenzy vs Apex 11M

Nice videos!
I also have a Frenzy so I might be able to comment on a few things.

I agree with you about the 5th line. (I hope) I never really need it and I rarely use it to land the kite so it seems pretty unnecessary to carry around one extra line, especially as it twists around the center line. I always have to turn the kite equally many times in both directions or do the "helicopter" to untwist it. (My kite still has the old Megatron, which doesn't swivel with the leash connected...)
Then again, a backstall safety is no fun in high winds and neither is landing the kite with it.

I have never had any bar bite on Ozone bars and the plastic is great especially when riding without gloves. (rough depower rope between your fingers = ouch! :o)
I have tested the plastic in conditions colder than anyone would like to snowkite in and have not found any problems. However, I have noticed that they have changed the plastic material over the years. My '12 Access, '13 Frenzy and '14 Catalyst all have slightly different plastic material. The '12 plastic got stiffer in the cold than the '13 plastic.
Anyway, cracking plastic parts on snowkites would be a massive design failure and something I've only seen on HQ's bars.

The clamcleat is something people either like or they don't (or they use it incorrectly and start to hate it:D). Imho it's the simplest and best system, as long as it's positioned above the bar. As you have noticed, it will get stuck if you pull it in completely, though...

On the Frenzy, the adjuster is only effective for ~3/4 of its travel. If you pull it in more than that, it won't further depower the kite but instead just cause the steering lines to go slack so you will only loose steering if you pull it in completely. That's due to the limited travel of the pulley system.

Quote: Originally posted by UnknownAX

On the Frenzy, the adjuster is only effective for ~3/4 of its travel. If you pull it in more than that, it won't further depower the kite but instead just cause the steering lines to go slack so you will only loose steering if you pull it in completely. That's due to the limited travel of the pulley system.

maybe this depends on the model of frenzy or some other adjustments. Mine seems to work fine throughout. apparently the pulley travel is limiting you, but maybe that means your front and back lines have changed lengths or aren't set equal anymore?

Quote: Originally posted by yeti

maybe this depends on the model of frenzy or some other adjustments. Mine seems to work fine throughout. apparently the pulley travel is limiting you, but maybe that means your front and back lines have changed lengths or aren't set equal anymore?

It could depend on the model but all newer Frenzies seem to do it. I've got exactly the same Frenzy as you and the lines are equally long although I will change the back lines to the shorter setting soon. Usually the front lines stretch more than the back lines, which results in more tension on the back lines.
My Access did the same thing when pulling in the adjuster completely, btw.

Anyway, you can see what I mean at 2:16 on Chrisz's video.

The clamcleat gets stuck because you need to pull in the rope a little bit to relase it from the clamcleat. When it's pulled in completely, there is no way to further pull it in... :P ...so it is stuck. Pulling hard on the rope may release it from the clamcleat because the rope compresses a bit when you pull hard on it.

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

Can anyone help with my questions?....sorry to duplicate, and I hope you don't mind my hijacking the thread!... Interesting to see the amount of input you apply directly to the steering lines on both kites. Is that a normal thing to see or was it light wind and you were doing that to bring the kites around faster? (wind didn't look light, you seemed to be going pretty fast!)

The adjuster is pulled in completely. All kites turn slower with the adjuster pulled and the Frenzy's backlines even slack when depowering the kite with the adjuster pulled in. (see the video)
Without the direct input the kite probably wouldn't have made the downturns without smashing into the snow. This is also what we were discussing in the above posts.

Quote:

I noticed also you were mostly changing direction with a downturn rather than going past the zenith with the kite. Is that a usual thing to do? Is it to avoid getting picked up?

I also like to do downturns...
Anyway, the kite doesn't usually fly to the zenith in a "normal" turn either, unless you're going reeeally slow or want to get air in the turn. I think you can maintain a better, constant pull in the turn + avoid unnecessary lift if you keep the kite relatively low in turns. On skis you need the extra pull and tension on the lines in the "downwind" part of the turn because you don't just change direction like on a board, for example.

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

Interesting to see the amount of input you apply directly to the steering lines on both kites. Is that a normal thing to see or was it light wind and you were doing that to bring the kites around faster? (wind didn't look light, you seemed to be going pretty fast!) I noticed also you were mostly changing direction with a downturn rather than going past the zenith with the kite. Is that a usual thing to do? Is it to avoid getting picked up?

So in general, it is not normal to have to reach above the bar to steer. When the conditions are good and the kite is adjusted to a reasonable trim, the kite will steer slowly while sheeted out with the bar, but fast enough that you may be able to get it to loop (depending on kite, conditions, etc). When the kite is sheeted all the way in with the bar (or even halfway or so), it will normally turn fast enough that a loop or even two consecutive loops should not be difficult. You may not want to do this without a full appreciation for the power that it will generate. But it's all done with your hands on the bar and no reaching.

For #2, looping while transitioning is a valid strategy for not getting picked up, but this is usually only a problem in conditions involving strong or gusty wind. Feyd from hardwaterkiter.com recently posted about this in a different thread that Chrisz started.

Looping the kite in general is great for getting moving in light wind with a kite that's a bit too small, or just generating extra power when you need it. Good to learn and practice all of these sorts of things in general - builds up a bigger bag of tricks and gives you more flexibility with handling varying conditions.

Comparing turning on land vs water is a little difficult since there are quite a few different strategies for either. On water you usually have enough power that when you bring the kite across at 12, it's going to be holding most of your weight anyway and you can almost stop dead for a short time before getting moving in the other direction. This is pretty much the first real transition that beginner kiteboarders learn in the water that doesn't involve stopping completely and re-starting.

The temporary stop is just as easy on land since you don't even need the same amount of power. But what kind of stop was it really? Harder to tell if you did it since you're not going to know at what moment you messed it up because you don't sink. It's more fun to carve out your turns anyway - both on water and snow. After some practice you tend to get better at just avoiding stopping or even slowing down. I think that whether you bring the kite to the zenith or not just depends on what's most convenient for the timing and comfort of the turn, but you'll definitely be able to maintain more speed keeping it lower. And yeah, you can get lifted doing this if part of your strategy involves bringing the kite to 12, but I used to find that it was mostly just because of not steering the kite exactly where it needed to be. For example, having it slightly to the left of 12 while you're still moving to the right (because you reacted too early or too late) is where it will start fighting your movement and may pick you up. If you do it really aggressively, the kite will just hindenburg. And that was the story for me when I was first learning how to jump. Eventually you get the timing down and those problems go away.

Quote: Originally posted by yeti

For example, having it slightly to the left of 12 while you're still moving to the right (because you reacted too early or too late) is where it will start fighting your movement and may pick you up. If you do it really aggressively, the kite will just hindenburg. And that was the story for me when I was first learning how to jump. Eventually you get the timing down and those problems go away.

I remember doing this, too. I didn't redirect the kite before landing so I ended up way downwind of my kite! :D This happened like 9999 times before I realized what I was doing wrong. I even managed to get tangled up in my own kite when it hindenburged right on me! :D

Quote: Originally posted by yeti

Anyway, since I have no snow to kite on yet this winter, these sorts of threads are my fix. Yammering on about how I think things worked when I was learning it; hopefully worth the time it took someone else to read it. Really need some snow soon.

+1
It's just ridiculously warm here. This should be January?! :puzzled:

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

Where in the world are you that it is too warm? I have -17 below and a -41 wind chill. There is no school today for the kids!

61°N...
Atm it seems that winter will come back next week...
The weather situation here in Europe is pretty seriously messed up right now. I really hope I can start the snow season soon, it's already a month or two late.