Power Kite Forum - Possible tire replacement?

Possible tire replacement?

Demoknight - 2-2-2015 at 10:18 AM

Has anyone ever considered using the tires that are used for front tires on sand racing buggies? Typically dune buggies that race in soft sand dunes in the desert are rear-wheel drive with paddle tires in back, and these steering tires up front. Anyone seen a buggy with all three wheels using these?

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/25397/i/itp-sand-star-f...

tdmc96 - 2-2-2015 at 10:45 AM

I believe that Coolbreeze had these on his Apex back in 2010 before he got out of kiting
here is a link

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=14962#pid13...

Cheers
Ken (K3)

BeamerBob - 2-2-2015 at 11:19 AM

He had expensive hubs made to fit the 10 inch rims.

MeatÐriver - 2-2-2015 at 11:45 AM

I was looking at a similar tire when I was upgrading from BF smoothies, but worried they may have a tendency to bite too hard... like in a powered up slide possibly threatening an obe situation. Though that was just my assumption. After seeing CSAdeadons setup I ended up getting a set of Kenda Speed Racers in the 21x10-8 size. Fit just fine on a standard 2.5" plastic wheel. Quite happy with the amount of lateral grip I'm getting with them and still work well in grass.

bigkid - 2-2-2015 at 12:40 PM

I ended up with all of Coolbreases stuff when he left the sport.
The problem was making the 10 inch wheels work on the front of the buggy. The back was not a problem. The wheels and tires are for sale if interested, same tire as above with black wheels and SS center hubs.
Hard flat profile tires are no good for side traction, but go ahead and try it out.

skimtwashington - 2-2-2015 at 01:10 PM

Are you just curious or do you have a goal here?

Demoknight - 2-2-2015 at 01:47 PM

Curious mostly. The one part of my buggy I haven't completely overhauled from the start is the wheels/tires. I started with a comp XR+ with extra wide tires. Just wondering why I didn't see more people using front sand steering tires all round for bigfoot buggies and racing buggies.

shehatesmyhobbies - 2-2-2015 at 01:55 PM

I know a couple have tried it here on the east coast, well something similar but more like a tractor tire, and had mixed results. Like driver said though, there is a possibility for almost too much traction in sand a little softer than hard pack.

Demoknight - 2-2-2015 at 02:04 PM

I get that it has "too much" traction. That is my point. When racing, you rarely want your buggy to slide out, even when turning. The cleanest turns are when the buggy doesn't slide at all, but you raise your kite, make your turn, and bring the kite around all in one smooth motion. If these tires behave the way I think they would, you would be able to carry even more speed into those turns without having to work it back up again coming out of the turn. Sure they wouldn't let you powerslide, but why in the world aren't racers using these?

soliver - 2-2-2015 at 02:28 PM

I believe I've heard the phenomenon referred to as the grippy flippy..... Tires grab hard in a turn and its either OBE or a flipped buggy

I don't know Errol... Seems a little dangerous to me (says the guy with the broken foot) :D

RonH - 2-2-2015 at 04:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

He had expensive hubs made to fit the 10 inch rims.

Even if you paid $100 per hub, it opens up all kinds of different options. The best part is the price difference between 8 & 10 inch tires :thumbup:

Coolbeeze's apex wasn't tippy with those ribbed tires on the back only. He could slide it fine.

I think the problem might be if you found something hard wile sliding the bug, you could flip easier instead of bouncing over the object with BF's.

BeamerBob - 2-2-2015 at 05:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RonH

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

He had expensive hubs made to fit the 10 inch rims.

Even if you paid $100 per hub, it opens up all kinds of different options. The best part is the price difference between 8 & 10 inch tires :thumbup:

Weren't the hubs quite a bit more than that though?

I remember coolbreeze saying on really hard sand the rib would run on top of the sand without penetrating it and it gave a squirrelly feeling. The best results would be on sand soft enough for the ribs to sink in. I'm not sure it would be better than a multi ribbed bigfoot style tire though. Those things lock in and give you all the traction you could want but will break loose when you tell/need them to.

Demoknight - 2-2-2015 at 05:17 PM

Spencer, there is actually a term for that frequently used in RC car racing. It is called a traction roll. I actually keep my seat almost scraping the ground when I ride. My butt has destroyed so many little sand castles! I have flipped my buggy twice so far. The first time was when I went into the lake, and it was more the water bringing me to a sudden stop than anything. The second time was a combination of two things: I made the super intelligent decision to continue riding on a tire that had come off the seat in a really hard bumpy powerslide, and a dog off the leash ran out in front of me mid turn, so I made an emergency landing so to speak. (I caught this on video, along with another OBE that involved me jumping a small sand berm and not coming down at the same time the buggy did)

Under normal circumstances, I don't have flippage issues even on a bad day. Anyone who has seen me ride knows I don't even slow down before my turns. I just crank the wheel and dive the kite. Granted, the sand tires would probably require a bit more respect than that, but I can't deny that the prospect of hauling all 300+lbs of ass and buggy full tilt on soft sand sounds really enticing.

soliver - 2-2-2015 at 05:35 PM

Sounds like fun then!!! :lol:

I'm actually considering getting a pair of 18x8.5-8s Nanco multiribs to replace the golfcart tires I curre have on the back. With my Amazon prime membership they are only $35 -ish a piece with free shipping.... The golf cart tires have been great, but I'm not sure how the tread is effecting the ride.

RedSky - 2-2-2015 at 06:21 PM

Whoa, it's February already! *Randomness*

Anyway, a proper assessment of those tyres to include high speed runs and slides on hardpack is needed.
I've been curious about those ATV sand tyres but my thinking rightly or wrongly has been one of over-traction with the effect of curtailing the bugs top end.

With regards to high speed turns, my worry is that these tyres will have the kite looped before long before you complete the turn unless you were prepared to slow the kite down somehow, maybe by means of increasing time spent riding downwind within that turn, if you have the room. It's all theory I guess until someone does a proper test.

awindofchange - 2-2-2015 at 06:33 PM

I used larger wheels for my buggy. They would have lasted forever but the drag on the lake bed from the extra wide tires, plus the weight of the wheels/tires made it quite difficult to get going in the lighter winds. When racing, a comp xr+ PL bug would smoke me for about a half a lap until I could finally get up to speed and then it was still difficult to gain on them unless I was way overpowered because of the extra drag from the footprint of the wide tires.

I have since switched out to the 17" wheels and that made a huge difference. They are lighter and have much less "spinning weight" or "rotational weight" so it is easier to get going and stay going. They also have a very small footprint so there is nearly zero drag.

I found another area here that has softer surfaces to ride on and am thinking of going with the bigfoots instead of the larger ATV tires because of the same reason. Bigfoots with plastic ABS rims are a very small fraction of the weight.

bigkid - 3-2-2015 at 06:29 AM

You all have short term memory, and no racing experience.
Kent and redsky was the closet to getting it right. Of course everyone has an opinion, even those of you who have done no testing. But go on and let us know the outcome, again.

skimtwashington - 3-2-2015 at 06:39 AM

Quote:

I have since switched out to the 17" wheels and that made a huge difference

Curious...what 17" wheel set up are you referring to?

bigkid - 3-2-2015 at 07:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington

Quote:

I have since switched out to the 17" wheels and that made a huge difference

Curious...what 17" wheel set up are you referring to?

more than likely the sysmics.

bigkid - 3-2-2015 at 07:56 AM

the more grip you have in the front or rear tires will do nothing more than stop your ability to STOP.
those of you that have dry lake beds and no obstacle to speak of can take all day to turn into the wind and slowly bleed off your speed. try running down a beach and have a small kid run out in front of you......
you cant think of buggy tires like you would a car or truck. you DONT want forward traction, you need lateral traction. but only enough to keep the buggy in control, anymore and as soliver said grippy tippy.

if you dont buggy with any speed to speak of, you can put any tire/wheel configuration on your buggy. bling it out of this world. if you run wide flat profile tires you wont be able to hold a strait line at any speed, but you will look awesome. most of this is about tuning your buggy for optimum control. ask anyone in Europe about tires and they will tell you about weight, rolling resistance, roundness, and side grip. side grip is relative to weight/kite power. i dont know anyone who flys the kite directly in front of the buggy, do you? the kite is off to one side or the other, just ahead of 90 degrees or about 10:00.
the whole idea is to move forward as much as possible while under control.

want more side traction? run taller, skinnier tires. i have the 17 inch Sysmic wheels with the smallest 17 inch street tire made and the camber is set at 17 degrees. its like riding on a rail. now this is all about hard surfaces. soft surfaces are another problem.

i have proved that a 21x12x8 smooth tire (nanco) on a 2 5/8 wide wheel has more lateral resistance than a 21x12x8 ribbed (beach racer) tire on a 8 inch wheel. because of the flat profile of the tire on the 8 inch wide wheel it doesnt bite the surface as well as the rounded profile of the 2 inch wheel. now if you put the beach racer, ribbed tire on a 2 inch wide wheel, RIGHT ON. the same goes for the front tire.

put an off road tire as first asked about on a pl bigfoot buggy and i guaranty you wont be able to turn. you will find out about flippy tippy without a second thought. now if snow kiting in a buggy is your idea of fun, then the tire with 2 ribs would work great in deep snow.

as for Coolbrease and his wide tire idea, it was for the snow and ice not the desert or beach. i still have the chains that went on the wide tires. his idea for the beach was bigfoots and the desert was with 18 inch motorcycle wheels and tires.

RonH - 3-2-2015 at 09:49 AM

I think the hubs were expensive cause he had them custom made from a largish piece of stainless...

Now if we start looking at hubs for a 1" shaft (like almost every trailer has) it gets really inexpensive. The problem is our buggy's are not 1" as a sort of standard.

The best part about a hub is the almost endless combination of parts you can just bolt on. :thumbup:

Nice to be able to tinker around a little easier by using something that is a standard part.

I'm not sure how well coolbreeze's buggy worked with the blades but at least he didn't have to spend half the asking price of an apex buggy to find out.

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

RonH - 3-2-2015 at 09:57 AM

Hey Jeff,

I think for most here, the looking awesome is where it's at.:o:o:o

Nothing wrong with tinkering around, especially now when we are not out on the beach where we really want to be.

bigkid - 3-2-2015 at 01:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RonH

Hey Jeff,

I think for most here, the looking awesome is where it's at.:o:o:o

Nothing wrong with tinkering around, especially now when we are not out on the beach where we really want to be.

Well of course it's all about bling. I'm not saying anything bad about that, I'm just saying that if you're not into bling and you watched the best performance then you're stuck with the basics that are tried-and-true.I have two buggies that are set up and it's not about the bling it's about functionality.
I know how much cool breeze spent on his tinkering and sad to say when he sold all of his stuff and left the sport he got pennies on the dollar return for what he had spent. I just hate to see people spend money that is hard to come by. But you're right, at the end of the day it's all about having fun and doing things that are outside the box and being able to brag about it later on when you realize how stupid it was.
As for customizing the axle it isn't that hard to buy the hubs at say harbor freight tools and weld that on the end of the axle and then you can buy all kinds of wheels and tires. like I said earlier the problem occurs when you try to do the front wheel because none of the hubs accommodate a through axle, they only accommodate a bolt on such as a car or trailer. To me if that's something you want to tinker with, that would be the moneymaker. I would be interested in what you come up with for that. Check while you're at it I have some 38 inch all terrain mud tires from my truck that would make an awesome buggy. :lol:

RonH - 3-2-2015 at 02:45 PM

38's on a buggy... You can be the guy flying a big enough kite to get rolling... I'll man the cameras :thumbup:

RedSky - 3-2-2015 at 04:44 PM

Dudes! I have the hubs sorted!

I use these DWT rims on 20mm hubs. The hubs come complete with bearings. You're new choice of rims are only limited to a 4/115 bolt pattern which is common in the trailer and ATV world.

BeamerBob - 3-2-2015 at 05:34 PM

Redsky, you are the man for getting bling that gets the job done. :thumbup:

RedSky - 3-2-2015 at 08:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Redsky, you are the man for getting bling that gets the job done. :thumbup:

Ha! Thanks Bob, too kind. Many an hour trawling the internet in the name of research, parting with the money and hoping it all works as planned.

volock - 17-7-2015 at 01:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky

Dudes! I have the hubs sorted!

I use these DWT rims on 20mm hubs. The hubs come complete with bearings. You're new choice of rims are only limited to a 4/115 bolt pattern which is common in the trailer and ATV world.

Out of curiosity any details on the hubs and how they attach to the axle? Running ATV wheels might be nice given the ready free supply of worn smooth ATV tires around for me on the grass.

Cheddarhead - 17-7-2015 at 02:14 PM

This is what hub I'm running on the rear wheels of my buggy:

http://www.bmikarts.com/4-x-4-Billet-Aluminum-Idler-Hub-34-o...

I have a set of 8"x 8" ATV rims that work well with these and a set of narrower trailer tires that work with these also. It really gives you a wide range of options because of the common 4 bolt pattern.

volock - 17-7-2015 at 02:27 PM

Thanks Cheddar, that's exactly what I was looking for. I assume you're running the 3/4" one since that's closer to 20mm than 1" is?

Cheddarhead - 17-7-2015 at 04:16 PM

Yes Volock I have the 3/4 inch one. It's the same hub regardless of which bearing you choose to use. 3/4" bearings are common and are REALLY CHEAP to replace.