Power Kite Forum

Will arcs survive ?

Bladerunner - 24-3-2015 at 04:20 PM

The topic of how kites have ( or have not ) changed much has me wondering about the arcs future?

On this forum I see many people who liked arcs moving to single skin.

I could be wrong but think serious snowkite ( and buggy ) racers that used to use arcs will be leaning toward the Chrono style race kites?

I love my old arcs and am not in a hurry to change things up but suspect that even I would be exploring single skin if I was shopping for new gear?


Do you think arcs will hold a place in the market or do you think they will fade away?

sand flea - 24-3-2015 at 06:06 PM

great topic Blade

i believe it will always have it's application

i will always like the simple 4 line no bridal attachment

and the graphics on a Phantom will always keep it in a collectors eye. Of all my kites I think the most awesome looking is the 18 meter yellow and black Phantom.

I hope to see you and the Crew soon

BeamerBob - 24-3-2015 at 06:15 PM

I don't think anything has made them obsolete. Heck, most of us that have arcs still fly Phantoms, Venoms and Synergies.

lunchbox - 24-3-2015 at 06:48 PM

I was thinking about this very thing a few days ago. I recently purchased a FS Speed 3 21m and had a chance to give it a test drive last Sunday. Took about 10 mins to sort out the lines and then launch. Wind picked up to about 17mph and I was overpowered and had to put the kite down. Flagged to FLS (hate it) and kite flapped and spun like crazy. Finally got it down and packed it away. Wind died down and I started to set up the kite again...this time it took me about 25 mins to sort out the mess. And yes, I've ordered a FDS kit from Powerzone.

During this fiasco, I put up my Charger I 19m. Simple as can be. Perfect self launch and land. No line tangles. I really love that kite. Have a 15m Charger I as well and my original Venom II 13m.

I hope they never go away and keep improving on the design. Their top end is soo good and I love the auto zenith. I would just love to get some more power at the lower wind ranges.

When I saw Carl's post about selling his Charger 2's a few months ago, I thought that maybe something new was on the horizon...hmm?

BeamerBob - 24-3-2015 at 06:50 PM

Team riders are encouraged to turn over their quivers periodically. Not always a signal of something new on the horizon.

ssayre - 24-3-2015 at 07:28 PM

Loved the arc I had. Those who have them take care of them, they are in my long term quiver list.

grigorib - 24-3-2015 at 08:02 PM

Will keep my T-ARC 130 for long long time. ARCs are pretty flys

Kober - 24-3-2015 at 08:56 PM

Surely arcs fame is slowly fading away . From my experience I would say that Arc kite can't be replaced with any other type of kite . It is perfect kite for small group of people . Non of existing foil kites have that awesome guest handling capabilities .... Peak is good at it , but its more suitable for expedition kiting then for FUN kiting . Then .... direct steering , auto zenith and very good jumping . I hope PL will keep this technology alive .

Flyfish - 24-3-2015 at 09:36 PM

Excellent topic. I too have thought about this. I kinda think they will fade because of a few factors.
One is that it seems that water kite surfers have become extremely bland over the last few years. What I mean is, people that began in the early days of kiting went through a huge range of development in the equipment. Starting on the equipment back then, we were totally into experimentation. If a guy showed up on the beach with some different type of equipment, you really wanted to try it out because it could have been radically different. That said, now I see kiters not wanting to "stand out". If you fly something different, then your the "odd guy out". Basically, nobody wants to be seen as the "experimenter" anymore.

Second thought that comes to mind is going to be controversial. But here goes:

Valgrop (the company that owns Peter Lynn) killed the brand.
As most know, a huge percentage of Charger 1's were lemon kites. But Valgrop stuck their heads in the sand and took zero responsibility for it. Just look at Arcusers forum. You will see how that forum faded away after the charger 1 debacle. They killed their loyal consumer base. Nobody (basically nobody) wanted anything to do with buying new PL's.

So now all you have left are the old hold outs that still have and fly venoms and Synergy's.

BTW, @ Lunchbox:
I use my Flysurfer quiver 80% of the time, and PL's 20%. After truely learning to deal with the bridals, I have no issues with flysurfer tangles. But I will say I can still bow tie a PL in a heart beat. I love em and hate em.

markite - 24-3-2015 at 09:42 PM

It's something I've pondered myself. In my area there was a big core group of dedicated arc users going back to the first few generations and we used them for surfing, bugging and winter kiting. Over the years the LEIs have pretty much become the kite on the water for everyone but there still a few guys that use them on water and I will use them water once in a while or when travelling and I can take a few kites. But for that water use it's dropped dramatically. We still use them in the buggy but there's more of a mix of other open cell depowered kites now and the same for the winter.
Ultimately it comes down to demand from the business end of it. I think there was a real shift in the market within the arc user community before the Charger 1 came out but for some that kite helped nudge their choices another direction. Once you get used to other kites it's hard to come back if you want a dedicated quiver so it became a smaller part of the quiver for some keeping one or two arcs. I don't think the Phantom 2 sold quite as expected and there isn't much talk about them in the last few years and even the Charger 2 is a really nice kite but you don't see much arc discussion out there. With the cost of production always increasing it's just the economic value for business - do you dump a ton of time and money into R&D on a kite that has a high production cost and very small market demand or put your budget toward the market trends and demands? Seems to be a clear answer however I would hope that the arc sticks around. I think the Charger 2 will be around for a while but I don't see a rush for a next generation kite as the recent pushes into different performance directions didn't equate to enthusiastic increases in sales so where can it go? Designers are putting more time into other styles that are showing a lot more potential for evolutionary and maybe even revolutionary improvements.

robinsonpr - 25-3-2015 at 01:02 AM

I got a Venom way back when they first came out as I was doing water lessons (LEI) and wanted something I could use on land too. Didn't fly it much and then had a long break.

I started kiting again last year and got a small fixed bridle to learn the basics of buggying and landboarding. I then bought the much discussed single skin Peak (which is awesome).

Something about the arcs keeps calling to me though, so much so that I picked up a used 15m Synergy aswell.

I've still barely flown the arcs because as a beginner their physical size scares the cr@p out of me, but there is just something about them. Maybe it's because they are different, and I'm the type of person that is OK with standing out from the crowd. Or maybe it's because I've heard the arc legends (stability, gust munching) and want to experience it myself.

I considered picking up a Phantom 2 9m to fit in my arc quiver as a higher wind kite, but it's speed, aspect ratio and target flyer (more advanced) put me off. If there was still a more beginner friendly all rounder in the line up (like the Synergy?) I'd buy one.

I think I'll keep striving towards wanting to be a good arc pilot, whatever else comes along. I do hope that Peter Lynn carries on the legacy!

shehatesmyhobbies - 25-3-2015 at 03:51 AM

Mark hit the nail in the head. While the charger 2 was a big change and better tie than the first gen charger, most still had a sour taste in their mouth. I think those that love to fly arcs, like myself will continue to fly them and get the most out if them. The newer phantom didn't do hit here in the states, some bought and liked them some didn't buy because it was too soon after the charger issues and were afraid of the same thing with phantom 2. I'm going to fly the phantom 2 at the bash and see what I can pull out of it, but in the end I will always rely on my original phantoms to give me hours of pleasure in the buggy and keep shooting for that max potential!

Bladerunner - 25-3-2015 at 04:13 AM

Interesting view points.

Mark sort of points out what concerns me. I suspect that PL is finding they are selling as many and more of their LEI and open cell depower kites than arcs? It will be hard for them to justify R+D or even production if new kite sales aren't up there. I think that there will be a number of people ( me included ) who will fly their old arc to rags.

I am totally connected to the arcs I own having had them so long. When I was searching I bought and sold a LOT of kites ( + many team kites ) before I was actually in tune enough with them to get the most out of them. Apart of me wonders if I would get more out of a newer Phantom or Charger but I think there is a lot to be said about running the familiar technology. I do believe when I buy in to a new kite I will likely be exploring single skin so even an old archaholic like me may not be a customer the PL can bank on?

We need a single skin with auto zenith! :smug:

Grigorib ,

Why is your T-arc so precious to you? I like mine because it is so unique but it's kind of a useless kite?????

carltb - 25-3-2015 at 04:20 AM

none of what I say is official PL talk, but personally I feel that the arc is peter lynn. I think there will always be an arc in the range, but they might not get updated as often as the leis or foils. from day one, the arcs weren't released yearly just because they had a new colour scheme or just for the sake of it. they were released when a major upgrade was achieved. and generally that was every 2/3years.
on the subject of the charger1, well, that was an attempt to finely tune the arc to the max. it was so close to the edge that sometimes it tipped over it, but with the ch2 they stepped back slightly and prodused the best performing arc EVER.
the only down side to flying arcs is the low wind performance but my personal solution is the 13.5m leopard!

grigorib - 25-3-2015 at 05:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  

Grigorib ,

Why is your T-arc so precious to you? I like mine because it is so unique but it's kind of a useless kite?????


It is hard to launch, it is pretty much a "fixed bridle" or even closer to a dual line since any further than an inch of depower collapses the wing, it turns on the spot but loses all the speed turning on the spot, it's not easy for beginner at all and I won't recommend it as a trainer to anyone.
But it makes such a nice C-kite arc in the air, it flies fast and looks beautiful, it's just like owning a 1.5m Chrono probably, or kind of "dik-dik of kite world" - just an eye candy, joy of mind and pretty thing to see fly.

abkayak - 25-3-2015 at 05:53 AM

never owned an arc...but if PL wanted to sell me one all he would have to do is put that nasty phantom back on the top sheet

if they brought back that old Phanny bag id pbly buy one

ssayre - 25-3-2015 at 06:46 AM

The most popular models of old and new arcs may not need changed or improved design wise, but I wonder how they would behave with the new lighter material? I would be interested in that to better handle the lulls that I have.

Feyd - 25-3-2015 at 07:03 AM

I see several points here that may or may not be spelling the demise of Arc design at least with Vliegerop.

Flyfish's assessment is pretty accurate IMO and outlines why so many people left the fold. The Charger was Pepijn's answer to all the things that people complained about in Arc performance. Mostly due to comparisons with LEI's near as I can tell. High performance was achieved and at the cost of the mellow low key handling and uber-high stability that caused people to fall in love with Arcs in the first place. For some it was performance beyond their skillset. It required too much piloting for most people's tastes. Then add the production issues and Vliegerop's handling of it and even more people lost interest. People complained about the loss of autozenith to some extent with the Charger. For those of us flying here (most of us were flying arcs exclusively for the past 10 yrs) we don't care about auto zenith. None of the arcs can autozenth in our winds.

As Carl points out, the Charger 2 is (like the phantom was to the F-Arc) a tuned down version of the Charger 1. Personally I still think they should have let the Charger name go and called it the Synergy 2 as the Syn had a better rep than the Charge and they could look at it as an advancement in a awesome kite as opposed to a redesign and salvage of a kite that almost everyone hated. Maybe the Charger 2 is intended to be more appealing to a broader spectrum in an effort to bring users back to the fold but I think the damage has been done. Even within the Vliegerop ranks, take a look at the Peter Lynn team riders today. How many are still riding Arcs?

Mark, in his diplomatic way, also outlines the reasons why Vliegerop may or may not have interest in future Arc designs. They have gone for the "low hanging fruit" as have other manufacturers because the vast majority of market share is LEI. The margins are better in that segment for sure.

And in regards to Rich's post. It sounds like flying the Phantom 2 is somehow an effort and not done because he loves the kite. It seems there were a bunch of arc drivers who wanted a replacement for the Phantom 1. But when it came to market the early purchasers complained that "It didn't fly like the original." (A claim that surely killed off some potential sales.) To this day I'm baffled as to why you would want a redesigned kite to do what the old kite from 10yrs before did. A kite which at the risk of being called a heretic, was little more than a castrated F-Arc with a cool graphic and kind of a dog in comparison to the new one.

Then the other common complaint was "It doesn't look as cool as the Phantom 1".

I agree with Carl. Arc designs define Peter Lynn. (not to be confused with Vliegerop which I view as only having the rights to the design but not the soul) They were so far ahead of the curve it unreal. And I would put them head to head with anything. I flew an Arc once last year. The Charger is still my "go to" for high winds and high speed riding. I haven't flown an Arc once this year. Sad really.:(



PHREERIDER - 25-3-2015 at 07:50 AM

arc design is brilliant. here to stay for a bit more.

charger II/ phantom II are a great blend of old and new for sure. i think theres still more to come from the design, but as market shrinks new innovation can slip away into other market trends.

kinda like NPW/NASA star definitely in revival. thats a knowledgeable pilots choice!

things that DON"T loose their usefulness stay around, i have mountain of old tubes that are completely useless other than harvesting for material for repairs, no way i would want some of them back. but my arcs/npw keep on doing what they do, thats great design.

as market grows and skill dependency is lessened for entry ease of use(not such a good thing) "new" buyer can't make the same skilled pilot choice ..yet.

PL and FS have tubes that kinda sums it up , they have great stuff but they gotta follow the market and pay the bills ...and still make really cool boutique products like SONIC and phuture PHANTOMS.



BeamerBob - 25-3-2015 at 08:04 AM

I flew 2 Charger Is and both times the kite was folded up with me saying I'd never fly it again. 12m and a 19. I was an early adopter on the phantom 2 and ordered a 6, 9, and 12. The 12 was an amazing kite. Flew fast with a range that allowed me up near 60 mph with it. The 9 was ok at first and then lost its stability as speeds got over 50. I never went as fast with the 9 as I did with the 12. The 6 m was merely tolerable in lighter winds but the jellyfishing it did in higher winds looked like the kite could self destruct. PL replaced that kite and it was no different. I still have the 6 and it would be ok for someone that wanted to fly it in middle winds for a gentle safe ride but it's not the kite to go 75 mph like I hoped.

I have 3 arcs now. A 13m venom and a 10 and 19 Synergy. I have confidence in all of them and won't sell them for a long time. LEI kites seem to provide the power and stability at speed that I was looking for in the Phantom II so between the 5 m HQ Ignition and the 8 m Montana, most conditions are covered. I have several small fb kites that work into the rotation too. The bottom line is that I've probably bought my last new arc.

Flyfish - 25-3-2015 at 08:07 AM

Feyd said:

"Arc designs define Peter Lynn. (not to be confused with Vliegerop which I view as only having the rights to the design but not the soul)"

Well said.

Also Phree said:

"things that DON"T loose their usefulness stay around"

Agreed.

PHREERIDER - 25-3-2015 at 09:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Flyfish  
Feyd said:

"Arc designs define Peter Lynn. (not to be confused with Vliegerop which I view as only having the rights to the design but not the soul)"




and that ended sometime after Venom II, best i could tell.

shehatesmyhobbies - 25-3-2015 at 05:05 PM

Feyd, not at all what I was trying to say about flying the P2 at WBB, I actually have only spent any real time on the biggest of the new P2's and want to really try out the other sizes to see how I like them as well. I really enjoyed flying the 24 and had a blast while flying it. I have flown two sizes in the Charger 2 and was really impressed with them and the abilities they provided.

You have put more time on any of the arc's than most anyone and know more about them for sure.

I do thoroughly enjoy my originals though:wee:

-mj- - 26-3-2015 at 07:51 AM

True points in this thread, Charger 1 too much performance, especially for those who expected the 'mellow' flying experience of older Arcs.
Yes there were melons, especially in the 15m size, which was the most sold size.
On the other hand, the lion share of kites we had returned here and were tested by us flew exactly the way they had to and had nothing wrong with them in spite of what some customers claimed. Only a relatively small percentage had the internal strap issue which caused the dreaded 'handclapping'.

Do not forget the Scorpion, that one damaged the Arc rep long before the Charger did. The Scorpion really was the marmite amongst kites.

Phantom didn't sell as expected, and won't be continued. The shame of it was, as mentioned by Feyd, people expecting a new kite that was going to do the same as a ten year old kite.

The biggest problem to sales however is that there are no schools teaching with them.
Since most or all people new to the sport get their lessons on LEI kites they'll inevitably buy LEI's for their first kit.

Second is the 'instant gratification' mentality nowadays, people expect stuff to work straight out of the bag.
Which is not completely unreasonable, but with a kite that offers a lot of tuning options the right setting for the winds one is flying in makes all the difference.
Count the LEI riders who fly on factory settings wondering why others get much more out of the same kite in the same conditions.
Somehow people seem unwilling to spend time getting to know the different settings, so they complain after an hour of static flying, while any Arc rider knows they perform best on the move.

Lack of low wind performance?
Lack of available demo kites at dealers.
Lack of proper marketing.

Arc's aren't fashionable enough for the average (20yr old) kitesurfer who wants to rip like Len10, amongst them Arc's still have the rep of being dull, slow and other adjectives the younger crowd doesn't want anything to do with.

IMHO Arcs aren't for that young crowd, they're for the mature rider who doesn't feel the need to damage his/her body by throwing double handlepasses or backmobes, Arcs are for those riders who just want to ride relaxed, catch a wave here and there and throw out a big oldschool jump when they feel like it.
Riders who want to invest their hard earned money in a kite that 'll last for 5 / 6 years instead of just one season.

I always like to compare Twinskins to telemark ski's, once you can ski telemark, skiing on 'normal' ski's becomes real easy.
But as easy is the standard nowadays you don't see too many telemark skiers anymore.
However the ones who do will swear by how much more gracious the ride is, and looks.

I don't expect the Twinskin design to go away soon, the people that did stick by them love the Charger II, arguably the best Twinskin ever made.

For now we'll have to see what the future brings, we have 2 designers working on a lot of different things and a new Arc isn't high on the priority list.
Unfortunately maybe, but as mentioned it isn't easy to design an Arc, let alone improve on the current gen.

Good winds,

grigorib - 26-3-2015 at 08:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by -mj-  
Since most or all people new to the sport get their lessons on LEI kites they'll inevitably buy LEI's for their first kit

Maybe time to address that then. You guys have so much advantage to advertise - a very compact kite, no pump required, bridles can't be simpler, almost any LEI bar will work on it, no strut punctures - so why not produce a trainer kite. ARC does look beatiful in the air, just make a 4-5m 4 line ARC trainer that would push out all the 3m dual/3line kites which teach folks to hold on the bar instead of pushing it out and then waste hours unlearning it. Get them young folks hook up on the ARC, hire the riders, do youtube videos, show some big air style. You have such a nice crowd who love the wing and even more people who would potentially get one. It's just an opportunity, not an obstacle.
Any problem which could be solved for money is not a problem but an expense.

Sorry to be a smart ass :)

PHREERIDER - 26-3-2015 at 08:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by grigorib  
Quote: Originally posted by -mj-  
Since most or all people new to the sport get their lessons on LEI kites they'll inevitably buy LEI's for their first kit

Maybe time to address that then. You guys have so much advantage to advertise - a very compact kite, no pump required, bridles can't be simpler, almost any LEI bar will work on it, no strut punctures - so why not produce a trainer kite. ARC does look beatiful in the air, just make a 4 line trainer that would push out all the 3m dual/3line kites which teach folks to hold on the bar instead of pushing it out and then waste hours unlearning it. Get them young folks hook up on the ARC, hire the riders, do youtube videos, show some big air style. You have such a nice crowd who love the wing and even more people who would potentially get one. It's just an opportunity, not an obstacle.
Any problem whick could be solved for money is not a problem but an expense.

Sorry to be a smart ass :)


great idea with the trainer arc, at the right scale, would be very cool indeed , there are mini trainer tubes already...so... knock.knock.knock (i think somebody's at the door)

i know its tough with the finicky skilless public who wants push button easy and guarantees . thanks for jumping in MJ.

grigorib - 26-3-2015 at 09:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER  

great idea with the trainer arc, at the right scale, would be very cool indeed , there are mini trainer tubes already...so... knock.knock.knock (i think somebody's at the door)


gotta be a 4-6m size to produce power comparable to 3m FB kite but in controlled way, plus advantage of being relaunchable from water. Few battens around air intakes won't hurt it, maybe a pair of fixed "ear hold/tuck" external bridles on the inside so wing never flattens out completely.

WackyWindsurfer - 26-3-2015 at 10:35 AM

Arcs are perhaps not as well known with the current young kiteboarders. When I am playing on the beach with one of my Twinskins, most times people approach me for information on what kind of kite it is (or just a chat).

They see 'Peter Lynn Kiteboarding' written on the sides, but the kites do not look like the LEI's they see nowadays on the water.
I plan to start kitesurfing this season and will be using my Twinskins for this.

I guess I will be the odd-guy-out than...
:D

grigorib - 26-3-2015 at 10:56 AM

And by the way, why not to follow 2015 Fuel path when C kites are getting tiny, but working SLE bridles? If that would add ease of launch/relaunch, reduce weight of kite by removing heavy internal system we might end up with a great wing.
In true spirit of Mr. Lynn - playing around and experimenting till something great is born.

Feyd - 26-3-2015 at 11:04 AM

HEHEHEH "Melons" . :D

Marijn brings up some valid points. Some of which could be considered not solely in term of the future of Arcs but in terms of growth or at least sustainability of kite powered sport.

For example, how many 20 somethings can even afford to do most of this stuff? We've had this discussion before, very few. Look at the average age of a kiter in this forum. Look at the average age of anyone in the Arcusers forum. Most 20 somethings aren't buying new, they buy 2nd hand from older riders that can afford new. 90% of our students and clients are 45+ and many 60+. And as much as marketing pushes the whole extreme sport, handle passes etc.. thing you have to wonder what percentage of kiters are ACTUALLY doing stuff like that. As in most sports, skiing, mountain biking, etc. very few of the participants are using their equipment as illustrated in the ads. Most mountain bikers are riding Crankworx style rides or Northshore technical. But they buy bikes that in the right hands can.

That's a whole 'nother discussion tho.

Arcs in the right conditions are extremely easy to fly. From a flight quality point of view they are still in my opinion one of the nicest, if not THE nicest kites to fly. But they take some thought and effort to make them work right. Just by simply ensuring they have enough internal pressure, which my feeling is 50% of the people who have owned arcs don't do, makes a world of difference in how easy they are to deal with.

In regards to schools using Arcs we offer arc specific instruction. But as with any kite instruction it's a hard sell as many people think they can figure it out themselves or have a buddy that can show them learn from a video or on the web etc. etc. etc. As one of our students said to me one day "Instruction is the cheapest thing you will pay for when learning a new sport." Yes you can learn a bit on your own. Yes your buddy can teach you some. But if you want to get the most out of a kite, spend time just riding it and not messing around with trial an error, a lesson is a short way to get there. I guarantee we can show you something about flying Arcs.

And we have Charger 2 and Phantom 2 available for demo and for use in our clinics.

But as most of this kite stuff is a sausagefest and as guys we think we know it all, we would rather try to save money, save our egos and teach ourselves to do something half assed and at the same time think we are doing well because after all the kite is in the air and it's pulling us around. That's all there is to it right? What else do we need? :rolleyes:

So many kites are under utilized. Arcs especially. Nothing used to make me smile more than throwing and Arc up and beating down kites that are supposed to be higher performance. I loved hearing "I didn't know Arcs could do that!"

No doubt, Arcs for the most part are "A Pilot's kite". It's not a kite you can just throw out there like an Ozone Frenzy and have it just go. It takes some effort to get it up and flying and some effort to fly it well. But like anything, if you go into it knowing it takes some work to learn to do it well and are willing to put forth the effort it will pay off huge.

It would be nice to have an Arc trainer. Assuming you can keep air in it given how low volume it would be. It would good also to have an entry/intermediate level low AR arc like the Vortex that is not so finicky and super easy to fly. Ever notice how few used Vortexs are seen on the market? I don't know that it was a big seller but it definitely is a kite that those who own it tend to hold onto if the used market is an indicator.

Locally, the thing that has killed a pretty heavy Arc following is the advancement of other kites on the market. Arcs became the primary kite in the sky here because nothing out there handled our gust factor nearly as well. In the last few years however that's changed. And with kites like the Peak which does almost everything that riders liked about the Arc but without the need to inflate or mess with spars and can be packed down to nothing, the Arcs have unfortunately fallen by the wayside.

I agree with Phree. Battens may help with a few things. Maybe even allow for easier inflating. And as much as I love the lack of bridles we've seen in the past how some bridling can be beneficial to an Arc. There's always room for improvement on everything but my feeling is it would take very little to bring an Arc to a place where it would appeal to more people. With the right exposure.


grigorib - 26-3-2015 at 11:47 AM

just don't forget to send demos out to folks who came up with suggestions...:)

3shot - 26-3-2015 at 02:00 PM

Lots of great thoughts in here. Really looking forward to learning proper arc etiquette in a few weeks.

kiteballoon - 26-3-2015 at 02:34 PM

mj, thanks so much for adding your opinions here. This is a great question and I appreciated your insight. I'm someone who recently made the decision to update my quiver with newer arcs, despite some of the valid feedback in the thread. I'm very glad I did, as I agree with what's been mentioned about the ch2's.

I can say I go slightly against the grain in that I'm young, I fly only arcs, and I only kite buggy. I'm the 1% of the 1% of the 1%! I do love arcs, and I cut my teeth on the scorpion. I've flown many different arcs but I can say the charger II is by far my favorite. They are the nicest arc to date and the most friendly to new arc flyers. They really are just amazing kites. While not the absolute best in low wind power, I think the ch2 does pack enough low wind power (adjust the straps and your riding style slighty). They can even really excel in low wind when you get those little 'gusts' that describe the on and off again nature of most inland low wind flying. Fly them right and they respond with huge power. Honestly I would rather fly my ch2 in the 4-8 mph range than a foil, having seen firsthand the difficulties of tip collapse. Of course, I'd rather the wind was blowing 10+ and then it's a non-issue anyway.

Arcs for me offer incredible wind range and enjoyment. i can snowkite, buggy, board, and kitesurf all with one kite. They'll give floaty jumps if I want them (I don't), and still provide the one kite, all day expedition riding I love. The really are a bit of the old reliable and consistent, which perhaps is why they don't sell like the new fad kites. But if you want a kite that you can and will still want to fly in a decade, the arc has shown itself to be a clear winner.

robinsonpr - 26-3-2015 at 03:05 PM

Yeah great comments in here. And balloon I bought my Venom a decade ago. And Yes! I am still desperate to fly it!!!

So my comment about there not being a "beginner friendly" arc in the current lineup....is it the Charger 2? Is that a pretty friendly beast in the 10m size? I was considering a smaller arc for slightly higher wind, I'd be scared to take my Synergy or Venom out in over 20mph. Thought about a Phantom 2 but the high speed and higher aspect ratio put me off. Maybe I could consider a Charger 2 10m or even 8m...?

Feyd - 26-3-2015 at 03:36 PM

The size of the kite does not equate to clear suitability as a "beginner" kite. For example most people would a say to avoid Chargers in smaller sizes as smaller arcs are considerably faster than their larger counterparts. My first Arc was a 13m Venom which I won in a race. Never even heard of Peter Lynn or Arcs before I won one. Taught myself to fly it and the rest is history. The coveted 8m Venom would be the sweetest arc for learning IMO. Good luck finding someone willing to let one go.:D

ssayre - 26-3-2015 at 03:40 PM

Whaaat? You taught yourself Feyd? I thought you said that couldn't be done? :D

3shot - 26-3-2015 at 04:11 PM

Well one thing about self teaching, you learn a lot about what an arc doesn't like! :lol:

kiteballoon - 26-3-2015 at 05:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr  
Yeah great comments in here. And balloon I bought my Venom a decade ago. And Yes! I am still desperate to fly it!!!

So my comment about there not being a "beginner friendly" arc in the current lineup....is it the Charger 2? Is that a pretty friendly beast in the 10m size? I was considering a smaller arc for slightly higher wind, I'd be scared to take my Synergy or Venom out in over 20mph. Thought about a Phantom 2 but the high speed and higher aspect ratio put me off. Maybe I could consider a Charger 2 10m or even 8m...?


Oh yea, imho an 8m charger 2 is such a baby and will fly over 20 in beginners hands very confidently. It likes to fly, and will be a gentle kite. The 10m is probably a better longterm choice ( I guess this depends on your wind conditions), but I have a 6.5, 8, 10 and fly them all. The 6.5 is a super fun kite too because of it's small size.

Feyd - 26-3-2015 at 05:19 PM

I don't recall saying that you can't teach yourself. I will say we get a number of clients who are self taught in both the kite and bike end of our business. And the most time consuming part of their clinics with us is un-learning bad habits. At least with a bike the variables are somewhat predictable. Wind offers a wildcard.

Not all "self-taught" are created equally and self teaching only goes as far as your ability to recognize and adapt to the subtle changes and feedback in whatever discipline you're trying to learn. Some people aren't wired that way. Fortunately I am. Locally we have two extreme ends of the spectrum of self teaching. Myself, who has been flying kites on snow for over a decade without incident and the guy just over the border in Maine who lost his life this winter. We live in a riding environment that does not offer much margin for error when "teaching" yourself. This nonsense mindset about not needing professional instruction, is going to get people hurt. How many people got scared off from the sport while teaching themselves? How many have been injured because of a simple mistake that could easily be avoided if they only had some instruction that taught them to avoid the mistake?

There are a number of talented kiters here where I live. Most have learned from riders like myself who are self taught because at the time there were no lessons available. These locals are willing to take others under their wing and guide them as they were guided which I suspect is a pretty common practice. And when they feel that the individual needs more than they can offer they send them to me.

But sometimes people just feel they "have it figured out" and disregard the local's advice. Arrogance, lack of respect for the environment, the gear and the skillset required to fly safely in it is a recipe for disaster.

To learn to do something well and faced with an option of teaching yourself or learning from someone with a skillset considerably higher than yours, the best option is learning from someone else's expertise. Take what they teach you and go from there and you'll be an amazing pilot.

And this all said, not all instructors are created equally. I've heard a lot of horror stories from our students who have had instruction elsewhere and seen some things that just make me shake my head. Things that you could never get away with here in our winds. For some it's a money grab. For me, it's about building solid kite skiers.

If you can really become a top level rider by teaching yourself then by all means go to it. But for the majority of people getting into a sport, lessons are cheaper than an ER visit.
;)

ssayre - 26-3-2015 at 05:53 PM

I don't know if your students know, but they are very lucky to have such a knowledgeable teacher.

Feyd - 26-3-2015 at 06:22 PM

We've been very lucky to have students that really want to learn. This season we've had amazing clients and I'm sad to see the season come to an end. But I'm really looking forward to next season.

And all this talk about Arcs has motivated me to get back out on 'em. I have a special Arc I've been waiting to play with again. Had a bad experience season before last and haven't flown it since. Got a little hurt and a lot lucky. We have a good idea what the flaw is and how to resolve it just have to implement it ( and grow the grapes to get back on it.) The thing I love most about arcs is the variations on the theme. This kite is a bit of an evolutionary off shoot.

The future of Arc design? No, probably not. But it's an evolutionary variant that I think once we get it fixed it will be a hell of a kite.:o

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 12:49 AM

"How many people got scared off from the sport while teaching themselves?"

I'm probably not far off it. But love it too much to give up yet.

My lack of lessons isn't through arrogance though, it's lack of arc lesson availability. I could go and get LEI lessons on water, but they won't help me on my arcs.

Hopefully I'm getting there having to teach myself...

WackyWindsurfer - 27-3-2015 at 02:58 AM

Watching a lot of Youtube videos that Carl made, helps a lot on the motivational side!
Besides that, he has some older videos explaining some kite handling stuff.
I have seen them all and had to teach myself, as I explained in our U2U communication earlier.

After a couple of sessions I tried and succeeded doing my first stall landing, like Carl showes in:


-mj- - 27-3-2015 at 03:09 AM

Making an Arc in lighter material will win some on the low end of things but the big disadvantage will be vulnerability, likely leading to more crash damages. This of course has a lot of effects; getting it repaired (where? not a lot of kite repair centers worldwide handling Arcs), after repair resale value, warranty claims we will have to deny as crash damage isn't warranted, you can imagine the rest of the story.

That said, there has been a lot of testing here with a new fabric, and it is promising to say the least so maybe it can be a custom option in the future.

As for a small'ish trainer Arc, we have experimented quite a lot with this and the basic conclusion thus far is that it is next to impossible to make it stable and friendly enough for teaching purposes. (or at least that is what I've gathered from the discussions about it, see if I can reignite the discussion here at the office)

To get schools to use them sounds easier than done, first the school will need to be convinced and that would mean sending free demo kites which they will need to fly for more than one hour/session. As we all know, someone used to LEI will find it very difficult to get in tune with an Arc and get out of it what it has to offer.
If we're lucky to find a school willing to stick with it and put the time in to flying them, the instructors are going to need re-schooling too.
(As far as I know IKO doesn't do Arc specific training, it's all LEI)

Most people, including school owners still think Arcs are more expensive than LEI's and unfortunately, in the case of schools, they are
We simply can't offer school the same sweet deals (almost at cost) as the big LEI brands can.
(Twinskins at near cost is just impossible for us, especially far overseas)


Video, there are plans to do something with Twinskins to put them on the map again, we do still have teamriders using them, Carltb probably the most prominent especially on this forum. And couple others that know how to rock a Charger.

Like this guy, not on the team but close enough:

Feyd - 27-3-2015 at 04:32 AM

IKO Arc instruction. The only way the IKO would be interested is if it would be profitable for the IKO. And if it was anything like their Snowkite support was it would be too limited to be much use.

Bladerunner - 27-3-2015 at 04:49 AM

Thanks for the input Marijin,

If old folks who likes a mellow kite that you can turn on and boost " old school " on demand are who you see as a major player in the arc game then I understand why I like my arcs so much. That is exactly what and who I am. It pleases me greatly to here that the arc will stay in the PL line up for a while longer.

It is interesting how the demographic has changed since I started in the sport. When I started out I was amazed to find that the majority of kiters were older. It appears the average age has dropped steadily and now the young " whipper loopers " are the ones spending the money. The Charger kind of proved that they aren't the ones looking to the arcs?

If I would like to see anything from a newer arc it would be comparable to a Synergy ( I haven't tried the Charger II :( ) but with better bottom end. I like the fact you are thinking about a lighter material a lot! :thumbup::thumbup:

Something I think I am noticing on this forum at least is a lot of pilots took to arcs for their gust munching reputation. + to a lesser degree the auto zenith. They aren't as concerned about boosting big. ( but it's nice that you can! ). These people are starting to explore single skin. Peak and Nasa Star in particular. I get the draw.

robinsonpr,

I fully get what you mean about the arcs intimidating by size. After years of flying them I still find myself wondering why I was all stressed about launching my arc. They thrive on wind and once my balls drop those sessions that I started out stressed usually turn out to be the sweet spot for the kite. The thing with the arcs is to get in motion.

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 05:02 AM

Yeah I'm definitely in the old folk mellow kite bracket :D

Thanks Blade, I know where I'm going wrong after all these discussions with all the arcitypes on here. When I got hurt on my Synergy I was static, and the big mistake was that I took it out in wind that was borderline too low to even fly it. Like you say, they thrive on wind and I need to get over the fact that I can't take it out in a nice gentle 10mph and try and dip my toe in.

I did get moving on my buggy with the Venom and had the beginnings of a light bulb turning on, but the issue with the leash getting twisted on my old 04 bar worried me. Hence my other thread about bar upgrade.

Onwards and arcwards!!

PHREERIDER - 27-3-2015 at 05:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by -mj-  


As for a small'ish trainer Arc, we have experimented quite a lot with this and the basic conclusion thus far is that it is next to impossible to make it stable and friendly enough for teaching purposes. (or at least that is what I've gathered from the discussions about it, see if I can reignite the discussion here at the office)



getting it scaled for "trainer wind" would be maddening, light wind and weak pressure , even with ultra light materials, scope and scale would make them something else , really would not be an arc in the end. drag alone would be a huge hurdle...wingtips would be tiny! maybe partial single skin tip and ram air front. definitely challenging!

Feyd - 27-3-2015 at 05:21 AM

Good observation Blade. The Peak has replaced Arcs here in part for the ability to handle the gusts (though actively whereas arcs do it automatically) but also because they are better suited to the type of kiting that many of us do here which is touring. A small niche to be sure but one that we are seeing substantial growth in.

I would say that the Charger 2 is on par with the Syn. Maybe a little more refined but it has a very Syn feel to it. Less aggressive than the CH1 It's hell and gone a different feel to the Charger 1 for sure.


3shot - 27-3-2015 at 05:40 AM

Again, this thread is getting better and better. Best reading in a while!!!

ssayre - 27-3-2015 at 06:13 AM


Quote:

These people are starting to explore single skin. Peak and Nasa Star in particular


That's me. Arc was great but I was only catching a glimpse of it's true potential due to my wind and riding spots.

Peak and stars are easy and seem better suited to smallish areas and wind that's full of holes.

Still, the right day, it was hard to beat the arc and it's a real show stopper in an area that people never see any powerkites.

-mj- - 27-3-2015 at 06:54 AM

Thinking out loud...
To get a trainer size Arc scaling would be out of the question all together, it has to be a completely separate design.
Pepijn doesn't really scale too much, most sizes are a little different than the next, one of the main things is the AR, bigger sizes have a higher AR than the smaller ones, all to keep the individual kites manageable yet fly similar, a painstaking process of finetuning.

Lightweight materials would kinda defy the purpose, lightweight means less crash proof & trainers crash!

Partial single skin tips could be something, like the ears on the older Arcs.
Thinner profile to reduce drag will work as well but then inflation will become trickier, ie. thinner LE less space for inlets, could always put in more inlets though...

Lightwind will always be a challenge in the design, the C shape just doesn't have the projected area, and once you put bridles on it to make it flatter and increase projected area it would lose many of the characteristics that define the design, like gust munching and stability.
Making the center big and the tips small doesn't work either, it has to be in balance otherwise it either won't have upward/lift power through turns or it won't turn at all. (as most extreme example)

So yeah, you've said it Phree, definitely challenging!

Quest for the new T-Arc :D

Feyd - 27-3-2015 at 07:25 AM

HEHEHE, I have an idea. Off to Home Depot....:P

PHREERIDER - 27-3-2015 at 07:26 AM

the haploid spawn!

pbc - 28-3-2015 at 11:58 AM

I love the Arcs in large part because I feel they are safer than many other kites. Depower is a safety feature. Gust absorption is a safety feature. Simple rigging is a safety feature.

I like the Arcs because they provide higher availability than any other kites I have used. The massive wind range and increased safety mean I can fly one kite longer than any other. I don't have to switch kites to keep flying wind the wind changes. I just slide a little more or maybe a little less.

Whether you are a old or young they are great kites.

Philip

carltb - 30-3-2015 at 04:22 PM

nearly everything I know about kiting was first learnt on arcs....

jy1zoom - 31-3-2015 at 11:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
HEHEHE, I have an idea. Off to Home Depot....:P


Haha single skin wing tips! I like it! .... more frontal area and more low end!

br44 - 3-4-2015 at 12:40 PM

Just as someone with some interest but very little ARC experience (only some static flying so far), it seems to me that PL don't really want/need/care to sell more ARCs. They have several LEIs and bridled foils so are protected if the ARC segment shrinks further. When most of the newer riders are hardly aware of ARCs (if at all - my impression), you'd think something different is needed to get their attention. But the only thing PL have is a brief page on their site, that says virtually nothing about the main questions that new customers would have: why, in what circumstances, should they buy an ARC rather than a LEI or foil?

A decent comparative presentation of the ARCs (video clips, documentary etc) would be just a first step. If flying is believing, how could potential customers try one without spending $$ first? If a trainer is not feasible, then maybe a user-friendly, cheaper model is? On the other hand, perhaps it's more profitable for PL to sell LEIs and foils rather than ARCs - I obviously can't tell. (Separate topic: I wonder why PL apparently never bothered to sell ARC inflators, but just let folks improvise their own. How does this help new customers?)

Another problem with ARCs is that only one company makes them. The design would be better served by 2+ competing firms, which perhaps will happen once the twin skin patent expires (or is licensed at reasonable cost). But without some sizeable customer interest first, other companies may choose not to bother with ARCs.

Demoknight - 3-4-2015 at 01:16 PM

I don't have much speculation to offer, but I have some observation:

Nobody knows what the hell an arc is. Even my local kite shop owner, who I see out surfing often when I buggy the beach, has no clue about them. He got done packing down one day, and stood on the beach for a few extra minutes watching me buzz around. I stopped over near him because my boot had become full of sand. I parked the buggy, trimmed the depower all the way in, and let the bar go up. I unlaced my boot, dumped it out, and put it back on without ever looking up at my Charger 2. Once I tied the boot back on my foot securely, I trimmed out and did a huge static jump back over towards my buggy since it had rolled downwind a bit. He commented, "Man that kite is stable, what is that?" I proceeded to tell him about the magic voodoo that makes arcs behave like a single line kite. My favorite part of the arc flight experience is that when the wind is smooth, the kite just sits and waits. Want to take a nap? Just lay down and have a nap. Hungry? Hook the chicken loop to your trailer hitch and make a sandwich.

The two main modern arcs are really great performers. The Phantom is really quick with its slim profile, and seems to have awesome upwind. The Charger is such a blast to fly because of its awesome handling, and it has just a ton of explosive lift on demand if you send it. The problem with arcs is the learning curve. You have to either learn to fly on an arc first, or you have to be prepared to unlearn some habits from flying foils or LEI. I will be the first to say it, sometimes arc ground handling is cumbersome. There isn't quite that freedom of pulling the kite out of the bag and flying, but it is about the same as an LEI. The main difference is that you can open the wingtip to let it inflate while you walk your lines instead of having to pump it up yourself. A newbie trying to solo launch an arc is tough. My first time flying my Charger took me 45 minutes to get it in the air, and I bowtied or inverted it at least four times that day.

All that being said, when I reach for my Charger bag now, it takes me 5-7 minutes and I am up in the air fully inflated if the wind is blowing 12mph or more. The learning curve is steep at first, but when you get your habit down for launch and packdown, it is just as fast as anything else. I leave my lines connected to bar and kite, and I leave spars in as well. If someone were less patient than me, they would have sold their kite after the first flight.

It is a labor of love for me. It is an unusual kite, with a very specific design. It fascinates me on so many levels that I was drawn to arcs a year before I ever got one. I think they are mechanically beautiful, and functionally powerful and versatile. There are LEIs, which are purpose built specifically to crash in water and be able to relaunch, and fixed bridle foils and single skin kites that are made to fly in the lightest winds or pack up the smallest, and then there are arcs. They are not the fastest, nor are they the lightest. They are like a Range Rover. They can take you nearly anywhere as long as you aren't in too much of a hurry, but they are super comfortable while you are flying. I think most people that have flown them would agree, arcs are probably the best behaving and easiest kites to fly in the air for beginners or advanced riders. But I think their biggest hurdle is that the ease of use isn't there to get potential arc flyers in the air quick enough to actually experience and fall in love with that part of them.

3shot - 3-4-2015 at 03:48 PM

Well said Demo!