Power Kite Forum - New generation of high AR kites is growing fast ........

New generation of high AR kites is growing fast ........

Kober - 25-3-2015 at 03:51 AM

..... We got Elf, Flysurfer Sonic-FR and new Ozone R1...
Battle for best race foil kite is not over .... now F-one post some pictures of new kite they are testing .... and then Liquid Force show short video of something they are creating . Wow ... Its getting out of control . Lets hope all that competition will make prices on those kites drop down a bit . Liquid Force just start selling new foil board that is about $600 cheaper then any other board of that type, so I think we can expect exactly same thing happening with kite they are working on .
We got 5 of those high end race AR monsters . How many more we will see by end of this year ? Is there really that big market for that type of kite ? I know there is a lots of races in Europe and sport is growing way faster then here in US , but how many kites they will sell ? and after filling up every racer quaver this year who will buy new models next year ? They are not cheap and most beginners and more advance riders will still stay away from use ones ...
I am not saying I don't want one, just to make it clear .... lol ...

Video of LF kite on FB page :
https://www.facebook.com/liquidforcekb

11083724_853189344716087_7239020602395113365_o by KOBER1974, on Flickr

11080976_836513049729435_8293148135105293729_n by KOBER1974, on Flickr

11046666_988193747859305_5562966995132524248_o by KOBER1974, on Flickr

1008813_553605101353566_32180916_o by KOBER1974, on Flickr

Feyd - 25-3-2015 at 07:07 AM

I know people are already selling off their Chronos in anticipation of the R1. My guess is if you are willing to buy these kites in the first place and can afford to race them you can afford to replace them for the newest versions.

rofer - 25-3-2015 at 07:56 AM

What exactly are the advantages of these racing kites? I assume they are made to get you moving as fast as possible given the winds.
If I'm not interested in racing though, is there any reason I would want one?

PHREERIDER - 25-3-2015 at 07:57 AM

FOIL on FOIL ...formula racing is on the way!

PHREERIDER - 25-3-2015 at 08:47 AM

light wind, as close to edge of the window as possible so POS is impressively steep windward. ultra low drag so unit just slip thru the window

on race day if 8-10knts is what you got on the water, these will produce incredible speeds at that range.

PHREERIDER - 25-3-2015 at 08:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

What exactly are the advantages of these racing kites? I assume they are made to get you moving as fast as possible given the winds.
If I'm not interested in racing though, is there any reason I would want one?

say you had 30 miles of range you wanted to ride and you have 5-10mph wind ...these units would make short work of it with solid assurance of out and back

Cheddarhead - 25-3-2015 at 10:55 AM

Quite amusing to watch companies battle the race foil wars. Certainly lots of kite eye candy coming out and I would lie if I said I would never want to try one, BUT.......most hard working average joe's simply can't afford to buy these things just to play with them. I guess I'm about as simple as they come. Get me out on a frozen lake with a pair of skis and a kite (any kite) and away from the masses, that's what it's all about for me. No formula one needed for this cat:D

pongnut - 25-3-2015 at 12:48 PM

Yeah Cheddar, we're not buying that "... average joe..." and " ... no formula one needed for this car..." when your quiver includes a couple pairs of "race" skis...
:lol:

Kober - 25-3-2015 at 02:38 PM

There is another advantage of race kites ..... boosting high .... Speed that you achieve by those kite creates so much tension on lines when kite is sent to zenith that you can jump higher then with most other types of kites .... Downside is that pilot must be experienced to get back on water in one piece , since race kites go so far to the edge to window is very easy to overfly them or swing under if kite is not redirected properly . As you see in AirStyle videos ..... kite used is North Dyno 18m .... also Ozone Edge is another winner in freeride air time and then new Flysurfer Boost , one from Airush and Cabrinha . When most kites are easy to find used , those are kept by owners for a bit longer , specially big sizes . Large race LEI kites are not light wind kites, and its nightmare the relaunch them in light breeze , they simply pro wide more power for heavier riders ..... and thats where racers need high AR foil kites ... some are offered only in sizes above 15m ....

Cheddarhead - 25-3-2015 at 05:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pongnut

Yeah Cheddar, we're not buying that "... average joe..." and " ... no formula one needed for this car..." when your quiver includes a couple pairs of "race" skis...
:lol:

Ok, you caught me....I like to go fast from time to time :rolleyes:

Feyd - 25-3-2015 at 06:10 PM

I had a client take a ride on our 18m Chrono today. In about 30 seconds of flying it he exclaimed how amazing the kite was. The guy is a good pilot and sensitive to how a kite feels. He was suprised at the power and speed it offered and how it sliced through the air. He was riding our 18m Matrixx 2 also a great kite. As he put it, the Matrixx 2 is more tractor like. But both kites are great. For light wind a race kite is sweet but for most users a lower AR kite like the Matrixx is more than suitable for light wind.

Kober - 26-3-2015 at 08:14 AM

Just look at number of foils ( kites ) in air at foil ( board ) race

for FB users only:
https://www.facebook.com/michael.petrikov/media_set?set=a.83...

chris - 26-3-2015 at 08:29 AM

HQ has a race foil, Zeekai, they are testing in Europe now. A few prototypes are in the hands of our best team riders racing (and winning) on the circuit. Should be in the line for 2016.

grigorib - 26-3-2015 at 01:26 PM

folks, please don't tell Pansh that racing exists.....

Kober - 8-4-2015 at 09:30 PM

Yep .... forgot about new HQ ..... sorry Chris ..... but where are the photos .... ?

.... and here ...... is new Zeeko kite !!

11094687_829339603769792_4691580635747996406_n by KOBER1974, on Flickr

Kober - 10-4-2015 at 04:00 AM

HQ Zeekai ..........

.

10383923_784908211578997_232320625763031140_n by KOBER1974, on Flickr

pstkk - 14-10-2015 at 10:49 AM

The Aeros Navy is getting updated for 2016:

Source: https://instagram.com/p/7XV4j5HJEH/

Feyd - 14-10-2015 at 10:53 AM

Looks lower AR than some of the others. Is depowerable or fixed bridle?

Like the graphics.

pstkk - 14-10-2015 at 11:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

Looks lower AR than some of the others. Is depowerable or fixed bridle?

Like the graphics.

True, AR on the current version (2014) is 5.8 for 11m and 6.65 for 16m, so in the range of Speed4L and Chrono V2.

It's a depower kite.

Info on the 2014 version: http://aerospara.com/...

Feyd - 14-10-2015 at 12:34 PM

Ahhh yes. Very nice. Better view in that pic. Have you had the chance to fly them? Have you had a chance to fly the Chrono V2 and if so any thoughts on how they compare?

They look great. I bet they're a lot of fun.

Feyd - 14-10-2015 at 12:48 PM

I've been getting a feel for the Ozone R1, The Chrono V.2 and the HQ Zeekai.

All very different kites though they appear similar on the surface. It's been interesting to say the least.

IT IS UNREAL WHAT KITES CAN DO NOW!!!

The Chrono V.2 is probably the most user friendly versatile. The R1, easier to fly for most than the original Chrono but still a dragster and a half. The Zeekai, still trying to figure it out. Open cell, seems similar AR to the Chrono or maybe even a Lotus. The closed cells have made me lazy and slowed my reaction time in terms of keeping the Zeekai out of trouble. So far seems like a really nice wing and a great option for people who want great light wind/ free-race performance but aren't using it enough to justify $2500+.

You get what you pay for with all these kites. More $$$ = more performance and more refinement. Depends on your needs, tastes and budget. The R1 is a Porsche 911. The Zeekai, Subaru STI. Both awesome little whips just depends on what you want.

nate76 - 15-10-2015 at 04:21 AM

A Promo video for the HQ Zeekai was just released:

https://vimeo.com/141411971

Feyd - 15-10-2015 at 05:41 AM

Here's a shot of yesterday's Hardwater Kiting Zeekai 10 test session. Not quiet the pristine riding conditions shown in the video for sure. :D

We test everything in this little field. If you can get a kite to perform well (or at all) here, it will be awesome out in the open in cleaner winds.

No snow yet. But you have to love the foliage this time of year.

Depending how these kites fair here we will be carrying them for sale on our site and have them in demo. But like everything we carry we want to have the "in's and out's" dialed before recommending it to our customers.

I will say so far they seem pretty promising!

BeamerBob - 15-10-2015 at 06:01 AM

Wow, that looks like a hopped up Montana. The added AR should pump up the performance for sure.

Feyd - 15-10-2015 at 06:44 AM

Yuppers!

pstkk - 24-11-2015 at 10:19 PM

Liquid Force teaser: https://www.instagram.com/p/98cH2wGpgt/?taken-by=alsbirk

And there's already a second hand Zeeko Helios for sale here: http://www.flysurf.com/petites-annonces/fiche-caisson-zeeko-helios--269843.htm.

pstkk - 24-11-2015 at 10:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

Ahhh yes. Very nice. Better view in that pic. Have you had the chance to fly them? Have you had a chance to fly the Chrono V2 and if so any thoughts on how they compare?

They look great. I bet they're a lot of fun.

I have only seen it online so far. Turns out it's not actually an update to the 2014 Navy but rather a complete new kite named Compi. Despite what the first picture seemed to indicate, the AR is apparently rather high at 7.5. More here: https://www.facebook.com/kitesandboards/posts/889625271113732.

I do hope Aeros updates the Navy as well. I think Navy/Chrono V2 makes up the most appealing class of kites. It is of course easy to think of them as second-best compared to R1/Sonic etc. The arms-race involved in the super high AR class is interesting to witness, but I think those pure race kites have too many drawbacks when not used for racing. The more approachable Navy/Chrono V2 work better in a lot of environments.

Feyd - 25-11-2015 at 05:17 AM

I agree. Free-race kites for most people are a lot more fun and versatile. Sure the Chrono V2 won't upwind like the original or the R1 but really in general who cares if you arent a dedicated racer? These types still go upwind better than anything most people have ever tried before.

7.5AR. Wow. I would love to get my hands on one and see what it's like. It looks lower than that but it's hard to say from a photo.

LF race foil looks like it could use more intakes. Just first impression from the photo. I think that the intakes on the newer kites like the SONIC,ChroV2 and R1 really make these kite shine compared to the Chrono 1. The added ease at launch is great. When I flew the Sonic the first time it was a treat how fast it inflated compared to the Chrono. In side by side comparisons the R1 now inflates faster than the Sonic. Super easy.

A lot of race kites end up on the used market pretty fast it seems.

The arms race doesn't help. People don't realize that the rider makes the kite. Always chasing the latest tech looking for an edge when in reality a good rider is going to win on pretty much anything you give them. They'll make the most out of a kite.

pstkk - 25-11-2015 at 10:25 PM

Better view of the LF:

It does have a small intake near the wingtip.

Since the hydrofoil from LF is aimed at beginners, it might be the same with their foil kite.

PHREERIDER - 26-11-2015 at 08:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

. People don't realize that the rider makes the kite. Always chasing the latest tech looking for an edge when in reality a good rider is going to win on pretty much anything you give them. They'll make the most out of a kite.

your wallet won't put you in light air or upwind...when asked "how did you get up here ?" i used my head... its mass AND its virtual content.

absolute truth Feyd. is not what you buy, its how you fly

nate76 - 28-11-2015 at 12:31 PM

I've been able to get a couple short sessions with the 19m Zeekai in very light and variable conditions. Below is a video link of some fairly raw footage with some of my 1st impressions:

I got the 19m because I think it is going to be the best size for what I'm trying to do here in CO. Typically after we get a snow storm, we often get a post-frontal lull as well, so while the snow is great there is little to no wind. Then once the sun comes out and winds pick up, the sun burns through the snow rather quickly. As a result, I often find myself trying to kite in marginal winds before the snow melts, so I'm hoping this kite might be the ticket. I'm also an old-school type kiter who likes big floaty jumps as opposed to handle passes, so this kite fits that sort of kiting well.

I still need more time on the kite, but initial impressions are quite positive. The Aspect ratio is quite high (7.1 for the 19m), so it does take some extra attention like most kites in this range, but the high C-shape helps reduce tip curling when making turns at the edge of the wind window.

With that said, it is a really nice flying wing: the bar tuning is superb, the power generation is smooth and grin-inducing, the upwind tack is like nothing I've experienced before (I don't have any experience with Sonics or R1's). I've yet to have a chance to get it out in more than about 6kts, but just in static jumps in my front yard and a little bit on skis, you can tell there is enormous lift potential there.

Time will tell, but I really believe this is going to add a whole lot more rideable days to my season here on the Front Range and change the way I view light wind kiting. It feels like a wing you grow into and mature along-side rather than take out and abuse and put back away. I'm looking forward to getting some quality time on it this winter and a more in-depth review in the future.

lunchbox - 28-11-2015 at 01:06 PM

Nice review and video.

I've never snow kited before and that looks like it would have been a great first day. Jealous!

How does the Z.. compare to the FS Speed 3's?

nate76 - 28-11-2015 at 01:39 PM

Hey lunchbox,

Unfortunately I don't have any experience on Speeds. Feyd does, and I'm sure he will chime in once he gets a little more snow coverage.

I can relate it to the 18m Matrixx2, which is a nice lightwind kite in its own right. Disadvantages of the Zeekai to the Matrixx2 would be that it does not hold its shape as well through gusts since it is open cell. When you are moving, the kite stays pressurized really nicely though. I've found that in the light wind riding I'm normally using the kite for, collapses are a non-issue and almost non-existent unless I really mismanage the kite.

Advantages to the Zeekai: Power, lift, and upwind ability for sure. It is quite a bit faster kite than the Matrixx II. Ability to stay airborne and overhead in super light winds seems improved as well. It is uncanny how little wind you need to keep this kite airborne. I really believe the kite is going to excel at exactly what I want it to excel at, which is saving really light-wind days, and not just making them mow-the-lawn rideable, but fun. Biggest advantages I see so far in low winds are that I will be able to set out the kite and go in wind conditions that would leave me needing some sort of pre-inflation with a closed-cell. Pack-down is just as simple - no squeezing air out a vent. So it really does seem about maximizing the lightwind experience.

rtz - 28-11-2015 at 01:45 PM

One more new kite? Might not be so high AR though:

http://libre.de/?q=en/node/223

lunchbox - 29-11-2015 at 03:06 PM

Great information Nate...Thanks!

Look forward to seeing some more of your videos!

Quote:

Hey lunchbox,

Unfortunately I don't have any experience on Speeds. Feyd does, and I'm sure he will chime in once he gets a little more snow coverage.

I can relate it to the 18m Matrixx2, which is a nice lightwind kite in its own right. Disadvantages of the Zeekai to the Matrixx2 would be that it does not hold its shape as well through gusts since it is open cell; the Zeekai is also higher AR, so it will turn a little slower and have more of a tendency for tip-curls if mis-managed. The Zeekai is not as beginner friendly as the Matrixx2, but that's not saying much. The Matrixx2 is super easy to fly.

Advantages to the Zeekai: Power, lift and upwind ability for sure. Ability to stay airborne and overhead in super light winds seems improved as well. I really believe the kite is going to excel at exactly what I want it to excel at, which is saving really light-wind days, and not just making them mow-the-lawn rideable, but fun. Biggest advantages I see so far in low winds are that I will be able to set out the kite and go in wind conditions that would leave me contemplating some sort of pre-inflation with a closed-cell. Pack-down is just as simple - no squeezing air out a vent. So it really does seem about maximizing the lightwind experience.

Feyd - 30-11-2015 at 07:17 AM

It's a tough to compare the Speeds to kites in this category. Even the Lotus, at a 5.8 AR it is just slightly higher AR than your Chargers. The only true advantage it has on the arcs is the material and the projected area. Which is why a Charger can hold it's own against a Speed and why the Speeds, compared to kites like the Sonic or Ozone R1 it fall short in some aspects of performance, especially light wind performance.

The Speeds are more versatile and I think appeal to a broader spectrum of riders.

We have only static flown and played on the ground board a little with the Zeekai at this point. Winter is playing games with us here in New England.:P We have spent a number of hours with all sizes of the kites in various wind ranges in a field where we test all the kites we carry. Our preliminary review from last month can be seen here... http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/kite-and-gear-reviews

In terms of performance, the Zeekai and the Speed 3 pound for pound in the similar sizes. IMO, the Zeekai will out perform the S3 upwind and hang time and turn rate. The Speed is going to be better in gust handling and general dirty wind flying. Power delivery of the Speed is smoother. The Speeds depower range may be slightly better. To some extent the Zeekai is faster launching being an open cell but the closed cells of the Speed pay off huge in shifty wind directions. And compared to kites like the Sonic or Chrono 2, there is very little if any advantage at launch. Those kites launch very well without pre-inflation. Heck even the Matrixx 2, if you have wind, launches awesome without pre-inflation.

In perfect conditions, for my tastes, I'd probably have more fun on the Zeekai but very few people have access to perfect conditions. With these new high AR wings you will notice that very few are being produced as open cells. Maybe because they are targeting the water segment of racing but I think being able to maintain internal pressure is critical to the stability of these types of kites in janky conditions. A kite like the Zeekai is going to require substantial piloting to get the most out of it if the conditions aren't right whereas a kite like the Speed 3 is a bit more forgiving.

Until I get the Zeekai out on the snow and really put them to work it's hard to say just how good she really is. Stand alone, so far I like the kite and I'm excited to ride it on the snow.
Give us a day to bang out some miles on it and we will have a better idea how well the kite stacks up against others.

pstkk - 30-1-2016 at 01:54 AM

Yet another: Storm Thunder
https://www.facebook.com/StormKitesurfing/posts/102886347051...

pstkk - 30-1-2016 at 03:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by rtz

One more new kite? Might not be so high AR though:

http://libre.de/?q=en/node/223

Interesting. Really good price.