Power Kite Forum - Old arcs - upgrade to newer bar?

Old arcs - upgrade to newer bar?

robinsonpr - 26-3-2015 at 04:02 PM

So I can't buy any more new kites as I need to buy some knee braces following my latest kite related injury.

But....

As I managed to get going in a buggy with my Venom (with stock Zero4 bar) a couple of weeks ago one thing that I really didn't like was the fact that after a loop or a downturn transition the safety leash ends up getting wrapped around the lines. I don't like that, I'm sure I'm not the only one! I found that I was happy to do a downturn at one side of the field but not the other, so with every 2 tacks I got another twist in the leash. After a few I was worried my safety wouldn't work if I needed it so I had to park the kite at the edge of the window, unclip the leash from my harness, untwist it, then clip it back on. Needless to say I was sh*tting myself while I did this

And the chicken loop sucks big time. It's never let me down in an emergency release yet (and I have used it a few times!) but I really don't trust it, with the way the tube slides through the webbing, and the pin and velcro setup.

I know I could get a new chicken loop, and maybe a spinny thing would let me untwist the leash. But have been thinking about maybe upgrading to a Navigator bar (or other manufacturer bar if appropriate, as the Navigator is alot of $$).

I've also got a 15m Synergy with a Zero7 bar. The safety and leash setup is better on that, but still seems a bit cluttered with the leash bit velcroing near the trim strap.

Any thoughts on whether I should upgrade to a new bar? Is a Navigator the way to go or should I look at other manufacturers.

Brings me onto another related question: My 13m Venom came with a 50cm (? it's actually 53cm between the leaders) Zero4 bar. My 15m Synergy has a 65cm Zero7 bar. I bought the Synergy used; is the 65cm bar the standard bar size for that kite?

If I upgrade to a new bar would the same bar be good for both of those kites? Or does the 15m Synergy need that bigger bar?

Also, If I were to upgrade to the Navigator I've read posts about the "Y" causing some issues with arcs:
- tip clapping
- difficulty with relaunch in some situations due to not being able to tug one particular front line

So is the Navigator NOT a good move? I don't really want to get a Navigator and then have to mod it to get rid of the "Y", or is this the best thing to do?

Finally (last one I promise!) if I upgrade the bar would the same length lines be ideal for both kites?

Thanks to any Arcitects out there with words of wisdom!

cheezycheese - 26-3-2015 at 04:09 PM

Cheddarhead - 26-3-2015 at 05:06 PM

I believe the newest version of the Navigator bar no longer has the "Y" line that everyone hated. I have personally used a Navigator bar/line set on a Venom and a Synergy and both worked really well with this set up. Navigator comes with even length lines as this is what works best with all arc models. Of course a set of pigtails always helps if any fine tuning is needed. Hope this helps some.

volock - 26-3-2015 at 07:20 PM

I love my Ocean Rodeo bar, and have used it to fly my venom, and prefer it over the stock bar it came with. I'm a fan of the below the bar depower, swiveling connection for my safety (no tangles ever) and the bar itself. I've not used the feature but it does convert bigger/smaller.

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 12:56 AM

Interesting what cheddar says about the new Nav bars. I'll try and find out if it is the case that they no longer have the Y.

I thought the Nav did NOT come with even length lines because of the Y. Or did you mean even length lines at the kite end with the bar pulled in and trim out?

Ocean Rodeo sounds interesting. I'm a little hesitant about going off piste on a bar because I'm still learning to fly arcs and wouldn't know how to tune properly if it wasn't setup quite right. I'm looking for plug n play!

Folk say arcs need a longer throw than standard bars, right? (but having said that the throw on my 04 bar seems really short!)

-mj- - 27-3-2015 at 01:43 AM

Rest assured, the latest Navigator bar doesn't have the Y line anymore, it didn't really work well on the bigger sizes.
Both available bar sizes are "dual" size as you can put the leaders either on the in or on the outside, gives you more versatility.

Older bigger sized Arcs needed the bigger bar to turn, newer models don't.
You will probably be off well with the 45/55cm Nav and you'll be likely flying both the VII and the Syn on the 55cm setting.
On the 45cm setting they will be harder/slower to turn.
You could opt for the 55/65cm if you want more turning speed.

That said, Arcs will fly on most bars with 4 of the same length lines, just make sure the safety works as this is different than on LEI's
(Single line flag out vs frontline flag out)

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 04:49 AM

Thanks for confirming that MJ!!

I guess if I'm going to upgrade I need to find a dealer in the UK who has this "latest" Navigator bar. Is there a way to identify it as a new one other than asking if it has the Y on the power lines? Is there a Navigator mk1, Navigator mk2? When did the "latest" come on the market? Can I get one directly from PL to ensure I'm getting the latest?

I also presume the latest has the pushaway release on the chicken loop?

When you say older bigger sized arcs need the bigger bar. Does my old 15m Synergy fall into that bracket? Sounds like it's not a clear answer either way as to whether I'd be better off with the 45/55cm or 55/65cm bar. What size bar was the 15m Synergy sold with as standard?

Thanks!!

Bladerunner - 27-3-2015 at 05:07 AM

If for some reason you bought another arc do you think it would be larger or smaller?

If you think you may go smaller then go 45/55, larger 55/65.

Personally, I would rather my bar be too long than too short.

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 05:20 AM

Good point Blade.

I don't *think* I'll ever go bigger than the 15m Synergy. Even a bigger arc won't fly in sub 10mph, (without a lot of work) right? If I want a kite for light wind I'll be more likely to get a 9m or 12m Peak.

However I may get one smaller arc, depending on how high a wind I feel comfortable in with my Venom once I get more experience with it. Whether that's an 8m or a 10m I don't know, I'll see if something comes up. I'll have eyes open for a smaller Venom, Vortex, Synergy or Bomba.

Feyd - 27-3-2015 at 05:36 AM

The Navi bar for Arcs still had the pull release CL last I heard. They were going to phase it out and have newer bars come equipped with the newer push away that is found on their LEI bars. I don't know if that's happened yet or not.

I agree with Blade. It's always nicer to have a little extra bar than too short. Especially on the older kites where you need more leverage to get more response.

As MJ said, any 4 line will work with an Arc. As he pointed out the Arcs flag out on a single front line so the bar has to work in that configuration. The '04 works that way however the '07 bar was a rear line flag out set up which will still work but not as cleanly.

kiteballoon - 27-3-2015 at 06:08 AM

New navi bars are push away as of last summer. At the time you could still get the old style too, but the new chicken loop is push away. You could anyways just order the chicken loop and retrofit it to the bar you have. Careful though if you do that

it's a slippery slope to tweaking your bar and replacing everything with custom stuff.

Once you get the hang of it, arcs can really be flown on most any bar. Just need four equal lines and some sort of safety to disconnect. Don't even need to worry about flagging the kite if you don't want to. Flagging needs to be done on the top line and is simplest with a chicken loop and swivel, but in a pinch your bat setup can skip that and be really simple.

Folks liked the zero7 setup, so it sounds like you have something respectable to fly with. I will say a nice bar really improves the kiting experience for any kite. So if you do feel the bar is lacking, you are probably right that a new bar would improve kite feel.

Feyd - 27-3-2015 at 11:37 AM

I can't think of anyone that like the zero 7. Backline flag out and the cable leash was aweful. In some ways it was better than the o4 but not much. Most of us had used other bars with longer throws and stoppers. The Navi was a step in the right direction but still we modified ours to make them more usable. Thank God the whole "split line" trend went by the wayside.

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 11:49 AM

A while back there was a post somewhere on here where somebody put up a pic of an alternative bar for the arc. It had long throw, single front line safety, adjustable stopper, swivel, cleat adjuster, and was WAY cheaper than the Navi. But I can't for the life of me find it or remember what make it was

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 11:50 AM

And yeas Feyd I don't like the cable setup on my 07 either!

kiteballoon - 27-3-2015 at 12:16 PM

LOL, I suppose I've never flown stock anything, but I thought others liked it? I thought the zero7 bar got rid of that horrible leashing.. I see now that it did, only to put it on the steering line. Whoops. I never flew with a leash that way, so it was sensible enough for a first bar. Anyways, I would encourage you to dabble and at the least, grab yourself a modern chicken loop and swivel. It'll make your life easier.

markite - 27-3-2015 at 12:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

A while back there was a post somewhere on here where somebody put up a pic of an alternative bar for the arc. It had long throw, single front line safety, adjustable stopper, swivel, cleat adjuster, and was WAY cheaper than the Navi. But I can't for the life of me find it or remember what make it was

It may have been this one - this was the basic set up when we started making longer throw set ups and using an ocean rodeo chicken loop or screwing a cleat onto the side of a PL loop (at the time).
The only difference now would be chicken loops with a swivel and safety integrated into the loop.

(oh, i never liked the zero 7 bar either :P )

Mark

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 12:55 PM

It was a modern off the shelve bar by one of the well know manufacturers. All ready to roll.

I'm not liking the sound of dabbling because this stuff hurts if it goes wrong and doesn't release properly. I'd much rather have a good, clean reliable bar built to today's standards

Suds after thuds - 27-3-2015 at 01:21 PM

Now I am wondering about changing/upgrading a Y-line navigator bar. I thought that he Navigator splits the front lines about 10m up to keep the arc from opening too much. After reading this thread and looking at this (image below), could I simply swap out the power lines and see a positive improvement in handling? I've been enjoying the arc threads, and shaking my head at my choices for learning about them. I feel better about the beatings I gave Ken's old Charger1 now though.

3shot - 27-3-2015 at 01:58 PM

For the record, I am ecstatic at all the arc talk here lately. :cool:

robinsonpr - 27-3-2015 at 02:17 PM

This *may* have been one of the other bars I was referring to:

http://switchkites.com/controller2.html

goofball and jadog were talking about it on another thread.

- It's 2 widths like the Navi...54cm/45cm so that sounds good.
- Swivel above and below the bar which look awesome.
- Various options of flag out including single front line, so that sounds good.
- Comes with 20m lines + 3m extensions. Not sure, my arcs are on 27m lines.
- Not sure how long the throw is

So a couple of questions over the line length. I've read that arcs aren't as nice on slightly shorter lines but I've never tried. Any comments?

Not sure I like the bar colour either. Having to relearn "blue on the left", "blue on the left". The blue/black may look nice to match the Switch kite but I can see it going pear shaped and having the bar the wrong way at some point, the colors aren't distinctive enough. Why-o-why do all bars not use the SAME COLORS!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

doneski - 27-3-2015 at 02:48 PM

This is a nice reference.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

I used it to add a clam cleat depower and long throw system. The longer you can slide the bar the better. It allows you to adjust for a wider wind range.

There's a section on tuning the kite too work with other bars. Basically, with the bar pulled all the way to you, adjust the centerline until the kite stalls and falls backwards.

Feyd - 27-3-2015 at 02:53 PM

I've heard good stuff about that bar. Never had one in hand though. The lack of red left is a little annoying. I don't think I've ever used a bar that didn't have more than just a red leader on left.

Line length at 23m is pretty short for my tastes. I like 27m+ on Arcs. The shorter lines may hamstring you in some winds but be good in high winds. The current arcs all come with 23m. You'll get a faster turn rate out of the 23m with 3m extensions so you can have the option to run shorter lines.

What I want to know is why are all the bars coming out with a long 4.5 line grafted into the front line? It's a PITA sometimes. Still better than the earlier bars or 5th line systems IMO but I really like the way my Navi bar mod works and how tight and clean it is. The Matrixx 3 has a grafted FLS that could easily be made into a short 4.5 FLS that just runs to the spinner. Less mess, less drag. Neat and clean.

I've always been partial to those Zeeko bars too. FWIW

crazyherb - 27-3-2015 at 03:22 PM

PL Navigator bar is SOLID....haven't had ANY issues with mine on the 24M Phantom2.
I've even converted my new Liquid Force 5 line bar to the 4 line (single front) flag-out safety line like the Navigator.

Speaking of line length...I think ARCs handle anything above 17m with ease...even 93M like BigKid videoed me with here: :o

https://youtu.be/W1u8aNnEPZM

doneski - 27-3-2015 at 07:26 PM

This is a nice reference.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

I used it to add a clam cleat depower and long throw system. The longer you can slide the bar the better. It allows you to adjust for a wider wind range.

There's a section on tuning the kite too work with other bars. Basically, with the bar pulled all the way to you, adjust the centerline until the kite stalls and falls backwards.

pbc - 28-3-2015 at 11:22 AM

Everything you said about the problems with the PL 04 bar is spot on. I used the '07 and variants of the '04. The '07 is has an innovative self-leashing mechanism, but is otherwise outdated. The trim strap, the bar stopper adjustment, and the safety line path all present challenges.

I bought the second generation Navigator bar and found it was not quite what I was looking for. I liked the Aerocleat trim adjustment. I thought the elasticized 4.5 safety line was a nice feature. I liked the hollow core chickenloop. On the other hand the rubber stopper was hard to move. It's interlock with the bar prevents the bar from spinning. I bar's non-round profile at the center hurts my hand on long tacks.

The Switch kites gear has some nice features. I've never flown on one of their bars, per se, but I've used their chicken loop, handled their cleat/adjuster, and am about to test their above-bar swivel. I am quite hopeful for their swivel. It was quite simple to install and integrates well into my other gear.

I think the fundamental problem you will find in any commercial bar is that you are not the target market. They are made for water kiters. They provide features few buggy pilots find useful. Those features come at the expense of other features a kite buggier would like.

All of this led me to design my own. The design is open as in open source and free to use. I published the first workable version at https://www.penflip.com/pbchase/custom-control-bars-for-arcs... in October of 2013.

This design desperately needs updating. I have since gone a long way towards solving the two safety issues described in the plans. I've added a safety line and the trim line is now short enough to be snag free.

Also in the current, not-yet-documented design, the trim line is easier to grip, assembly is also easier and complies with the usage instructions for the cleat. I also need to the license language to make it clear the design is open for all to use. I think I'll have time to update this in May.

In the interim, multiple copies of the latest design are in testing this week and next on the Mojave. Nick and dean have two variants each and I have three. I suspect we'll learn something new by the end of next week.

I'll be sure to share.

Philip

robinsonpr - 28-3-2015 at 12:24 PM

Hey Philip, that looks awesome, and highly technical 😊

Very tempted by the Switch Controller 2, it looks pretty sweet (apart from the lack of red!).

Has anyone actually used it with an arc?

I was thinking of maybe getting the 20m lines + 3m extensions, and then an extra set of 3m extensions to take me to 26m, and the leader lines are pretty long so I'd be near 27m but with the option of going to 23m or 20m in higher winds.

Is using 2 sets of extensions like this a bad idea for any reason like extra drag because of the loops?

Anyone had arc success with any other stock bars with no mods?

3shot - 28-3-2015 at 01:27 PM

Robinson. That is a pretty sweet looking bar, at least in the description. My GIN bar is black and white. Its not an issue at all. If the blue and black bothers you, just put the black on the left with the red line, and the blue side to the right on the blue line? Its whatever works for you. As long as you know which is which is all that's important IMHO.

Edit. I just read the bar reviews. That's exactly what peeps are doing about the bar color.

robinsonpr - 28-3-2015 at 01:54 PM

Yeah that'd work, or a big old bit of red tape around the floater!