Power Kite Forum

the good lord giveth; the government taketh away

Scudley - 15-4-2015 at 06:28 PM

bad, sad, news : http://www.richmondreview.com/news/299952561.html

riffclown - 15-4-2015 at 06:52 PM

Sad day indeed.. Scratch Richmond off my list. Hopefully the RAF Kiters will chime in on this and get the line drawn in a knowledgeable manner. The sheer ambiguity of it will have law enforcement ticketing children with sport kites. Someone needs a reality check.

RedSky - 15-4-2015 at 07:31 PM

Shame. My site also has a school bordering it. Why the knee jerk reaction, camera's and kids ?

Michael Gaylan - 15-4-2015 at 08:22 PM

Bi laws are corporation policies...I'm glad I'm not a member of that political corporation garbage...

Besides if I were I wouldn't vote for it, nor would I convict someone of that as a crime . . . People should really study the "law". Seems everyone is entrapped by someone elses opinion about what a 'law' is. (nullify)

Where's Richmond anyway? I am thinking a road trip is in order...If it's across the pond I can't go :(

Government can't take a right convert it to a privilege and require a license to punish you for using it in the form of "taxes". Taxes = "excise"

Can a state grant a license to commit an illegal act? no.

Kamikuza - 15-4-2015 at 08:43 PM

So, stunt kites ok - Rev 4-8, anyone?

indigo_wolf - 15-4-2015 at 08:49 PM

All sorts of idiocy perpatrated under the banner of "public safety."

RC clubs like Richmond Area Radio Control won't be impacted as much by something like this as they have their own dedicated flying field.





Parks and Rec makes accomodations for FootGolf, but fly a kite and your looking for a manger to sleep in.

Quote:

FootGolf, which combines the popular sports of soccer and golf. To play FootGolf, athletes use soccer balls on a traditional golf course with 21-inch diameter cups. The rules largely correspond to the rules of golf. Both courses have 18 holes and are designed to be able play both traditional golf and FootGolf simultaneously on the same course.

FootGolf uses golf’s basic model including tee boxes, greens, bunkers, hazards and 18 holes of play. Scorecards display par scores for each hole as in regular golf. The sport is governed by the Federation for International FootGolf and has grown primarily internationally.

The sport is played in the traditional format of up to four players per group with FootGolfers either walking the course or using golf carts. Holes are roughly half the distance of a regular golf hole. While the soccer ball doesn’t travel as far in the air as a golf ball, it will roll much farther in the fairways.


ATB,
Sam


indigo_wolf - 15-4-2015 at 08:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza  
So, stunt kites ok - Rev 4-8, anyone?


Yeah, but in higher winds you can get a $150 ticket for flying a Sting 1.7





ATB,
Sam

This policy is so SAD for Richmond, British Columbia

jollydriver - 15-4-2015 at 09:10 PM

As stated in the title, this is a bad day for kite flyers in Richmond, B.C.

Some of the responses seem to be bemoaning a similar fate to Richmond, Virginia, USA...and I see no evidence of a current encroachment on kite flying in that city.

Hopefully cooler heads and fair treatment of all recreational activities prevail in Richmond, B.C. In the meantime, be on guard in Richmond, Virginia.

If I'm off base in my observations, please educate me.

JD

IFlyKites - 15-4-2015 at 09:20 PM

Wow what a joke.. This is in Richmond, B.C. Canada? Bylaws are becoming more dumb by the minute... sigh..

Bylaws make sense if they have a purpose, in this case, they are completely unnecessary and serve no purpose. Please Richmond, for the sake of the public, re-access the bylaw. Why does the public have to suffer, especially the people in the hobby? I truly don't understand the reason behind this ban.

Any sport or hobby has a danger, why not ban everything then? Why are traction kites banned when any kite could technically cause “significant pull” Where are they even getting these terms?

If anyone wants to express their frustration, here is their email: mayorandcouncillors@richmond.ca

markite - 15-4-2015 at 09:35 PM

So does that cover Garry Point too? I think that is part of Richmond (Steveston)? sad new for sure.
What happened to put power kiting on the radar - was it specifically related to Garry Point activities?

riffclown - 16-4-2015 at 03:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jollydriver  
As stated in the title, this is a bad day for kite flyers in Richmond, B.C.

Some of the responses seem to be bemoaning a similar fate to Richmond, Virginia, USA...and I see no evidence of a current encroachment on kite flying in that city.

Hopefully cooler heads and fair treatment of all recreational activities prevail in Richmond, B.C. In the meantime, be on guard in Richmond, Virginia.

If I'm off base in my observations, please educate me.

JD


I thought it was Richmond Va.. I guess it struck me that way since it's so close to home. I sent the alert out to sevral friends in that area.. I just sent a correction as well..

3shot - 16-4-2015 at 03:51 AM

Sam, is that the RC field on Rt 360? The one south of Mechanicsville?

shehatesmyhobbies - 16-4-2015 at 04:33 AM

This is yet another shot in the arm against power kiting. As power kiting is soon the be allowed on Washington State beaches again, another battle seems to be looming for power kiting in general.

If I can help out please let me know.

indigo_wolf - 16-4-2015 at 04:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 3shot  
Sam, is that the RC field on Rt 360? The one south of Mechanicsville?


The field in the pics is about 30 miles from Mechanicsville.

It's about 30 minutes Southeast of Richmond, VA. North of the James River and adjacent to the Shirley Plantation so there is a natural buffer from local residents.

I also thought the original posted was about Richmond, VA and the article like so many online articles doesn't include a dateline (a brief piece of text included in news articles that describes where and when the story occurred, or was written or filed, though the date is often omitted).

ATB,
Sam

3shot - 16-4-2015 at 05:24 AM

Ha! I thought that's where that pic was. I pass that field daily. My shop is 20 minutes from there. Small world at times. :thumbup:

ssayre - 16-4-2015 at 06:01 AM

That is sad news. I would bet the drones with cameras were viewed more negatively than the kites but in sake of "fairness" they probably just mad a broad judgement. I could be wrong obviously, but it would be a coincidence if both groups did something specifically that caused the ruling. Gary pt is such a famous park for power kites that I hope something could be worked out. Is there a beach that can be used in Richmond at least? The school grounds is really a killer, that's really all I have in my local area.

PHREERIDER - 16-4-2015 at 06:45 AM

man that sucks

Bladerunner - 16-4-2015 at 04:53 PM

Yes, this means Garry Point will be effected.

This truly sucks! :evil: GP is the ONLY park that actually works west of the Rocky Mountains in Southern B.C.. Many have searched and nothing comes close. To lose GP is to kill traction kiting on West Coast B.C.

It's not completely done yet? They say they will consult the stakeholders and to my knowledge that hasn't happened yet. Dirtside and many of the crew are Richmond residents and we have had to face City Council many times before. They know the questions and will have the answers that have worked in the past. This is a new council though. I hope that D'sliddy's disABILITY will win us some points? ;).

If liability becomes and issue there may be some need for NAPKA to come to our rescue? THIS is exactly the reason I have had a personal interest in seeing that NAPKA remains a successful association. Traction kiting has been going on for almost 2 decades at Garry Point and I don't know of a single injury to public. We are pretty low liability.

I think we are getting stuck in the drones light? That + a new city council running wild. There is one lady ( isn't there always ) who yells at us and we are pretty sure has complained but over all we remain extremely complaint free so .... ???

Let's see. A lift ticket is $72 bucks. The golf course $85. I'll pay my $100 fine if they promise to keep free parking . ;)

soliver - 16-4-2015 at 06:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
Yes, this means Garry Point will be effected.


Oh man, that IS really unfortunate... keep us up to date, you guys and let us know what happens!

Chupacabra - 16-4-2015 at 06:49 PM

Greetings. I am a local RC Airplane pilot and i feel like you are making assumptions which are out of place.

There are many factors in considering the safety of many activities that people use the city parks for.

All activities carry a certain amount of risk. How much risk? that depends.

Kite flying can be just as dangerous as rc flying if operated by the wrong person.

Not to disagree completely with you, rc airplanes and quads flown by inexperienced and unprepared pilots can be dangerous as well.

Keep in mind though that RC vehicles have a high level of control. Quadcopters are capable of staying in a single location even in extreme wind speeds.

RC Airplanes operate with the same physics that give commercial air travel it's reputation as the safest form of transportation.

You're more likely to get into a car accident on the way to the park than you are of injuring yourself or others.

I would enjoy discussing this matter with this group some more.

It's a shame that the knee jerk reaction that un-informed politicians have which affects diverse hobbies which are enjoyed immensely by enthusiasts.

New bylaws: http://www.richmond.ca/agendafiles/Open_Council_4-13-2015.pd...


Quote:

Benefits
The proposed Public Parks and School Grounds Regulation Bylaw No. 8771 will enable the
Community Services Division to:

Quote:
1. Ensure that public parks and school grounds are inviting, accessible and safe, enabling
residents and visitors to feel comfortable and connected to the community;


Not if you ban activities that have been going on for years and are only now being exaggerated in order to control and destroy enjoyment in citizen's lives.

Quote:
2. Promote a safe and respectful culture of walking, cycling and active transportation
modes, as supported by the well-established pedestrian, rolling and cycling connections
throughout the City;


Boring

Quote:
3. Allow community objectives to be met while protecting the finite resource of parkland
and public open space for the use and enjoyment of all;

What enjoyment? It's illegal to do anything in parks these days other than standing, walking, or running.
Quote:
4. Preserve parks and the open space system that contributes significantly to supporting
recreation, social interaction, psychological and spiritual renewal and the conservation
and enhancement of the City's ecological network;

Kite flying and RC Airplane and Quad flying is:
- a recreation
- it promotes social interaction discussing equipment, techniques, .etc
- Psycological and spirtual renewal, because kite flying is relaxing and calming and renews the mind after a long stressful day at work, and all we want to
do is be able to enjoy wind powered activities.
Quote:
5. Foster shared stewardship of parkland and public open spaces between multiple
stakeholders in order to foster pride, purpose and a sense of community;

There is no purpose if there isn't anything to use that land for. Banning kite flying and RC aircraft flying destroys communities.
Quote:
6. Preserve waterfront and waterways in furtherance of the recreational and ecological
values, and the cultural and ecological uniqueness of the City's island city heritage; and

Quote:
7. Protect and maintain parkland in furtherance of the City's commitment to a "Sustainable
Richmond. "


In their meeting's notes they conclude with:
Quote:

The proposed Public Parks and School Grounds Regulation Bylaw No. 8771 will enhance the
use, enjoyment and safety of Richmond's parks and school ground sites by providing greater
clarity of rules and regulations and additional administering tools for increased compliance,
while protecting the finite resources of the natural environment for future generations. It will also
support the City's vision of being the most livable and well-managed community in Canada by
ensuring that such spaces remain safe, respectful, inviting and accessible places for the
furtherance of residents and visitors' social, leisure, and recreation pursuits.

But they banned the social, leisure, and recreation pursuits.

chupa

ssayre - 16-4-2015 at 07:11 PM

chupa, I don't live in the area or know anything of the situation, but I don't see anywhere in this thread where it was inferred the rc activities were more dangerous than kiting.

Chupacabra - 16-4-2015 at 07:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
chupa, I don't live in the area or know anything of the situation, but I don't see anywhere in this thread where it was inferred the rc activities were more dangerous than kiting.


I've corrected my post in hopes of it being more accurate.

Thank you.

edit: though someone mentioned accusing this ban being put into effect due to an action caused by drones.

Unfortunately some people don't understand what the word drone means.

A Drone is when a robot is operating on its own without the control of a pilot.

ssayre - 16-4-2015 at 07:34 PM

It's terrible for all enthusiasts of hobbies that need open space. I wish all involved the best of luck to try and persuade the powers that be.

SIGN THE PETITION To Reverse the Decision of banning the use of RC Aircrafts and Kite Buggies in Richmond Parks

Chupacabra - 16-4-2015 at 08:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
It's terrible for all enthusiasts of hobbies that need open space. I wish all involved the best of luck to try and persuade the powers that be.


There's a great piece of land located in the middle of Richmond not being put to use for anything. It would be good if they developed it into a park available to be used for recreational activities of this sort.

A few weeks ago a friend and I flew my plane and his quadcopters at Garry Point.

We saw a bunch of kite flyers at the south eastern part of Garry Point so we went over to the far west side of Garry Point in order to not interfere with the Kite flyers.

Everything went well, bystanders watched in amazement and enjoyment and after I landed my plane I heard a round of applause. Funny because I was just doing circuits as I was rusty after the winter and didn't want to do anything I wasn't prepared for.

Sad that they have to destroy responsible people's enjoyment.

Will the local hobby stores in the lower mainland start to suffer?

Also: SIGN THE PETITION To Reverse the Decision of banning the use of RC Aircrafts and Kite Buggies in Richmond Parks

Share the link with others too! Please

IFlyKites - 16-4-2015 at 08:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chupacabra  
Greetings. I am a local RC Airplane pilot and i feel like you are making assumptions which are out of place.

There are many factors in considering the safety of many activities that people use the city parks for.

All activities carry a certain amount of risk. How much risk? that depends.

Kite flying can be just as dangerous as rc flying if operated by the wrong person.

chupa


If all activities carry a certain risk, why are they only banning the use of drones/RC's and traction kites? I could find many dangers with other hobbies. They really need to take into account what other regions are doing such as in Washington State found here: http://www.chinookobserver.com/co/northwest/20150105/rule-ch...

As you mentioned, not only are they destroying people's enjoyment of watching. But also destroying our enjoyment and keeping us indoors. Would have thought they want most active and outside, guess not..

They really have no reason for this ban. Especially since Richmond is one of the few spots for us to enjoy the hobby. I won't be surprised if in a year or two, only one/two park(s) will be available for kiting and RC'ing in the lower mainland.

Scudley - 17-4-2015 at 11:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Chupacabra  

There's a great piece of land located in the middle of Richmond not being put to use for anything. It would be good if they developed it into a park available to be used for recreational activities of this sort.


If you are talking the Garden City lands, you need to review the Transport Canada Regulations and your thinking. These lands are 4km from the end of YVR's main south runway or well within 5 nautical miles of airspace controlled by YVR. Richmond could not allow you to fly there even if they wanted to do it.
As to your point that kite flying is a dangerous as R/C, I call BS and challenge you to a duel:
I will let you fly my 10m kite into me from fifty meters, if I can fly my y6 into you from 50 meters. We will both wear only Tshirt and shorts and the target gets to stand up wind from the pilot in each case. We determine who is right by who has the fewest stitches after three attempts at strikes on the other each.

Michael Gaylan - 17-4-2015 at 01:32 PM

From my limited experience anything you do can be just as dangerous merely depending on the one doing the doing. (lol)

Drinking a bear can be just as bad, if in the wrong circumstances and in the wrong hands.

I doubt opinions can outweigh truth about each and everything we do, because opinions are just that... they are not based on facts because facts are as they say "on the moon".

However, kites have string that can kill, RC's have fuel that can kill as well... point is, I doubt anyone will "intentionally" injure a fellow creature. Not for love of life anyway (in my opinion).

So with that I say this: Nothing those "corporation shareholders" can say is actually facts, because what they say is just babbling hearsay about something they want to tax in the future.

soliver - 17-4-2015 at 02:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Michael Gaylan  

Drinking a bear can be just as bad, if in the wrong circumstances and in the wrong hands.


Last time I tried to drink a bear it really didn't work out for me... The zoo keeper got mad at me cuz I kept climbing over the fence... But hey the sign only said "don't feed the Bears"... It didn't say anything about drinking them, so I figured "hey, why not?..."

I hear the wild ones are kinda gamey and not so good for drinking.

Bladerunner - 17-4-2015 at 03:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chupacabra  
Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  



edit: though someone mentioned accusing this ban being put into effect due to an action caused by drones.

Unfortunately some people don't understand what the word drone means.

A Drone is when a robot is operating on its own without the control of a pilot.


Sorry for using the wrong term. I am actually aware that Quadcopters etc. are not drones until they act autonomously .

I am talking about the Quadcopter that decided it would be cool to film a plane coming in about 1 year ago. That guy didn't do anybody any favours and I suspect that his actions play into this to a degree. That + quadcopters taking off in popularity gives the nimby's something new to fight.

What GP offers us that can't be matched is clean safe winds from many directions. No inland spot will do this for us. While I am sure this is a big blow to the RC community you at least are left with options in the lower mainland ( I think? ) . We really and truly don't have anyplace else that is as safe with space and clean winds to go to. MANY people have searched far and wide.

It is Truly ironic that Richmond is going this direction while just below them Washington and right above in Vancouver's English Bay they are changing the bylaws to allow a return of traction kiting. Reversing their bans. Go figure? :rolleyes:

jy1zoom - 17-4-2015 at 07:53 PM

Hopeful.

IFlyKites - 17-4-2015 at 09:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jy1zoom  
Richmond Parks and Recreation are interested in helping us keep our recreation activity. However, need to address complaints of the hazard of kite lines crossing the foot path. And complaints of fast moving landboards and buggies frightening children who may be unaware. The city is looking for a solution: how we and them could address this. The council will make their final vote 27 April.


Here are some solutions I thought of:

- Put up signs that warn of power kites and wind powered vehicles in the area
- Cut the hedges/bushes on the west side of the park to expand the area. It seems they aren't even being taken care of and it could free up some space for others as well.
- Make a wooden border/fence as the outside of the park currently has.
- Allow power kites on all weekdays and maybe set limits for weekends/holidays as there are more people if they really want to limit the use (That's towards GP not schools) For School grounds it could be the opposite.

Chupacabra - 18-4-2015 at 03:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Scudley  

If you are talking the Garden City lands, you need to review the Transport Canada Regulations and your thinking. These lands are 4km from the end of YVR's main south runway or well within 5 nautical miles of airspace controlled by YVR. Richmond could not allow you to fly there even if they wanted to do it.


Yeah, I've re-thought that. Even below the 400feet limit it could be an issue.

Quote: Originally posted by Scudley  

As to your point that kite flying is a dangerous as R/C, I call BS and challenge you to a duel:
I will let you fly my 10m kite into me from fifty meters, if I can fly my y6 into you from 50 meters. We will both wear only Tshirt and shorts and the target gets to stand up wind from the pilot in each case. We determine who is right by who has the fewest stitches after three attempts at strikes on the other each.


My airplanes are 500gram (overall weight) chunks of foam. Getting it by it would hurt less than if someone threw a baseball to you and you missed the catch.

Pusher prop planes are even safer as the propeller is at the back, and someone would only get hit by soft foam.

I might try flying one of my beat up planes into myself to test.

Gas engine rc craft are quite dangerous when operated near people as they have a heavy and powerful combustion engines and I agree with them having to be in specific flight parks.

The planes I fly are electric 22" wing span foam planes that are in the same class as a Frisbee. Getting hit in the head by a Frisbee would hurt more than one of my planes.

Will this ban also include those tiny helicopters than you can buy for $30. Or one of these tiny Cheerson CX-10 quads:






Either way the approach that Richmond City Council as taken is quite drastic and unwarranted.


Also would rather we not get into an argument for which is more dangerous as both activities are perfectly safe when operated by responsible people.



chupa

riffclown - 18-4-2015 at 07:04 PM

Quote:
Also would rather we not get into an argument for which is more dangerous as both activities are perfectly safe when operated by responsible people.


Good Call, A united front is definitely in order.. :D

Morrie Williams - 19-4-2015 at 09:37 AM

Are there any plans for a group to attend the meeting? Is there anything that NAPKA could help with?

P.S. We've been working on the Washington issues for 20 years!

Bladerunner - 19-4-2015 at 11:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Morrie Williams  
Are there any plans for a group to attend the meeting? Is there anything that NAPKA could help with?

P.S. We've been working on the Washington issues for 20 years!


We all met up yesterday. Dirtslide , Ron H, J1zoom and at least 1 other local will represent us. They are all local residents. There will be a public meeting Monday night for people to speak up. On Tuesday I understand that a representative will join them in the park for a hands on introduction to where we fly and how we self police.

We have had to go through this to some degree for almost 20 years as well. Ken #1 and Ron have previous experience with this issue and City Council. Ken #1 has faced them for about 17 years and we know his situation has changed. I can't imagine them shutting him out of the park? :duh:

I have big hopes we can work something out. Council has expressed a desire for us to " organize " for a few years now.

THANKS to the East Coast riders NAPKA has grown old enough and strong enough in numbers that it just may be the " organization " that we need to work with the council if it comes to that. :thumbup:

Morrie Williams - 19-4-2015 at 02:24 PM

Let us know if there's anything we can do, Ken!

Would the liability insurance for NAPKA members help at all?

Bladerunner - 19-4-2015 at 04:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Morrie Williams  
Let us know if there's anything we can do, Ken!

Would the liability insurance for NAPKA members help at all?


I believe that our chapter rep' Ron H has been in touch with SheHatesMyHobbies and Ron understands the benefits + limitations of NAPKA. As you know, I have always been a huge NAPKA supporter thinking that it my be the Ace we need up our sleeve. With Dirtslide's situation we have 2 Aces, so we are going to the flop with a good hand!

I got out late today and the few who were there were packing up. It was sad like the last day of most events feeling. I got one last ride on before the park got too crowded. Almost too short a ride for how sad I felt driving away. :(

shehatesmyhobbies - 19-4-2015 at 04:31 PM

Hoping that you guys can get this worked out locally. I will be support however I can be here and will send emails if necessary to help out .

I am sure we can come up with a solution if needed to let NAPKA help out and be used in some way.

3shot - 19-4-2015 at 05:43 PM

I hope things work out. Norhing worse than politics. Its good seeing NAPKA volunteering some resources.

RedSky - 20-4-2015 at 07:59 AM

I really hope it works out for you all. There has been some great videos coming out of GP. I could face the same situation one day and I'll be pretty much a lone voice at any meeting.
I'm sure public liability is going to be their main concern, so push the insurance side of things...obviously. :)

RonH - 21-4-2015 at 05:43 PM

All I can say right now is our new contact at the city parks board is willing to work with us to find a solution.

Unfortunately the timeline is very short so we have to work fast.

For those of you in the area that use Garry Point. The council meeting is this coming Monday the 27th at city hall. A strong presence will help, especially if you are a resident of Richmond. (All are welcome to attend!)

Ron

shehatesmyhobbies - 21-4-2015 at 07:06 PM

Hey Ron, Per request, just sent some documents to Ken and Ken, hoping you guys can use them to help a little or hopefully a lot. Hopefully strength in numbers will help as well.

RonH - 21-4-2015 at 08:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by shehatesmyhobbies  
Hey Ron, Per request, just sent some documents to Ken and Ken, hoping you guys can use them to help a little or hopefully a lot. Hopefully strength in numbers will help as well.



Thanks Rich.