Power Kite Forum - Hardwater Kiting Long Term Review 2015 Ozone Access

Hardwater Kiting Long Term Review 2015 Ozone Access

Feyd - 27-4-2015 at 10:16 AM

"The Access is Ozone’s entry level De-power foil kite that has been designed to make the learning process of Snow kiting as safe and easy as possible."
-Ozone Kites

This is in our opinion the understatement of the year. We don't deny the accuracy of it but really it doesn't do the 2015 Ozone Access series of kites justice.

Details:•Kite: 2015 Ozone Access
•Size Range: 4,6,8,10,12
•Target User: Beginner-Intermediate
•Test/Demo Duration: 4 Months (+)
•Location: Northern New England
•Surface: 1m Powder-Bare Lake Ice
•Tester Skill: Novice to Expert
•Winds: 8kts-40kts

About the Access When HARDWATER KITING picked up Ozone we did so as an effort to expand the offerings of kites for our students and clients. Ozone has a long history both globally and locally in the snow kite game an it's difficult to find a snow kiter who has been riding the last decade who didn't own at least one Ozone snow kite at some point. Most of us got our starts on the venerable Frenzy series back in 2004. Honestly we didn't have a lot of personal interest in the brand after nearly a decade of drifting away from the Ozone locally and seeing it replaced by other offerings. Offerings that were either more affordable or better suited for riding in our generally tough conditions.

That changed last season when we brought in some of the 2014 line as demo kites. We were thoroughly impressed with how far they had come. Especially kites like the Access and the Summit. We weren't to excited about the 2014 Frenzy and given that it has been completely redesigned for the 2015 season we can only assume Ozone felt the same.

This season we purchase 2 kite quivers to be used for teaching/demo kites. In 2014 Access proved to be an excellent kite. We found it performed better than the kites were were using at the time for teaching. For 2015 we decided that we would use the Ozone Access as our moderate to high wind school kite quiver. In discussions with Ozone we found the 2015 was identical to the 2014 but with the new Re-Ride safety system.

In our normally gusty conditions choosing the right kite for our students is critical in ensuring they feel safe and confident which is key to their success in learning. If you aren't comfortable and feel as though the kite is trying to beat you up, learning to fly will be stressful and not much fun.

The 2015 Ozone Access eliminates the uneasiness that some people feel the first time the fly a kite. It truly is an awesome beginner kite as Ozone states. But really in terms of versatility and usefulness the 2015 Ozone Access is really so much more.

Obviously the 2015 Access is being marketed towards beginner riders. And without a doubt it is a top level kite for beginners. Ozone has a reputation for making top quality kites and even as a beginner kite the Access is still a premium wing with the same attention to detail that "higher" end offerings tend to get.

And although it is being marketed as a beginner wing it really has a much farther reaching range of use.

The 2015 Ozone Access is an unbelievable high wind kite. As with most kites the factory spec'd wind ranges on the Access are pretty conservative. The low end wind ranges tend to be fairly accurate with the Access but the high wind ranges are a bit higher than spec'd if flown by a pilot with experience. We have flown these kites in gusts up to 45kts and the Access not only allowed us to to this with a feeling of security but also enjoyment.

The Access will change the way you look at high winds. It is remarkable how the kite handles gusting and how stable it is. To the point where as an experienced rider I initially found myself doubting my senses. The first time we did a high wind test session on the Access we were riding in winds blowing 30kts gusting to 45kts. When we arrived to the riding site all the information being fed to me by my eyes, ears and wind meter, told me we were going to be working hard today. Looking into a haze of snow being torn from a lake's surface and throw 25 feet into the air usually causes me to a little hesitation. But when we got into it, on the the Access, I comfortable as I would cruising in 15kts.

In fact I started to doubt my senses.

The lack of abuse I was experiencing, the smoothness in the wing and the fact that I was on a 6m without any need to trim, really made me second guess what I was hearing and seeing. I only became aware of how well the kite was working when another kiter asked me what kite I was on. He asked because he was getting the hell beat out of himself on a 4m while I was riding effortlessly. At that point I gave him the 6m and switched UP the the 8m. Again in winds gusting over 40kts. I had to trim the 8m by about 3 inches to be really comfortable. After the other kiter rode the Access for a while he decided there was nothing in his quiver that could do what this kite does and purchased one from hardwaterkiter.com.

It was an enlightening experience. In conditions that I would normally shy away from bridled kites and resort back to my Peter Lynn Arc flying the Access proved to be more than suitable. Add the safety and effectiveness of the Re-Ride system and you have an amazingly safe and easy kite to fly.

I know. "Amazingly safe and easy" isn't really the description that elicits feelings of excitement in kite terms. The Access isn't a lifty freestyle hucking machine. In situations where you want to fly an Access you don't want a freestyle kite. It's a "beginner kite" or more accurately we like to label as a "Touring" kite. Even the original Access was in kind of that same vein. Thus the name "Access". A kite designed for touring the back country just so happens to usually be good for beginners and for teaching. Low aspect ratio, easy to fly, low lift make it a winner in both categories.

Characteristics:

Handling : The 2015 Ozone Access is a surprisingly nimble kite. The turn rate is excellent and can be enhanced considerably with over bar steering. The size with the broadest usable range for most riders seemed to be the 6m. We feel it's the "sweet spot" in the size range as it has an unbelievable high end wind range but a good lower end range in non-deep snow conditions. As a school we really only use the 4m for high wind/small student situations. The wind conditions that would warrant use of the 4m for a rider like myself in the 200+ pound range are relatively rare and usually not much fun to fly in. Much like an 18m Ozone Chrono or 21m Flysurfer will ensure a few solitary session in light winds, the 4m and 6m do the same for high wind days. The 8m is a great all round kite and a good moderate high wind (25kt+) for heavier riders (180lbs)+. Although it has much of the depower and gust handling of the smaller kites it can still generate some lift if put in the right place. Intentionally or unintentionally. The 10m is a solid powerhouse. It will get you moving on smooth, firm surfaces in 7kts and is still fun up to 20kts. We haven't flown the 12m. We can only suspect that the 12m follows suit with it's smaller siblings but works as a better option for heavier riders in average to moderate low winds. Given the kite's nature and it's being made of standard material it is not a true light wind kite.

Safety Systems : for 2015 the Ozone Snowkite Series received the new Re-Ride system. This is a purpose built depower specific to Ozone snowkites and found on all models but the Chrono. It consists of a 5th line actuated bridle assembly cunningly place inside the kite! When the safety system is activated the 5th line will draw on the internal bridle and cause the kite to fold up a bit like an accordion for lack of a better description. Essentially the kite balls up and falls from the sky. This system works great as a safety system but it also works well as a method for landing and relaunching.

For example the Re-Ride system reduces or eliminates our need for ice screws.

Our normal landing procedure is as follows...
1. Depower the kite.
2. Set an ice screw.
3. Anchor depower line/brakes to ice screw.
4. Secure/pack kite at end of lines.
5. Wind your lines.
6. Pull ice screw.

With the Re-Ride system we do this...
1. Activate Re-Ride system.
2. Wind lines. This winds the lines but also BRINGS THE KITE TO YOU. No need to secure the wing. (Something you should NEVER DO with a non Re-Ride equipped kite)
3. Pack the kite.

The ability to do this shortens launch and pack down times to just under 3 minutes without rushing.
When we first saw the video of the Re-Ride system in action we were skeptical as what is often claimed to work doesn't work well in our shifty and gusty conditions.

The Re-Ride however has been phenomenal and we are true believers in it now. The only snow kite that doesn't come with a Re-Ride is the Chrono. As it's a closed cell for use on water as well as land having a couple of mid-wing holes probably isn't the best option.

If you don't want to use the Re-Ride to land the kite the Access still has a brake handle which attaches to both back lines and allows you to stall land the kite the same way we have been since 2004. Note: this is the same handle used to reverse launch the wing.

Build Quality : Maintaining Ozone's reputation for offering premium products the Access is built on par with the "higher" end offerings. The kite is made to be durable and is smartly designed. For example Ozone has implemented internal cross bracing in this kite which drastically lowers the number of bridles required. This reduces the parasitic drag as well as the risk of tangles. The Access has blow out valves that will reduce the risk of over pressuring and blowing out cells in a leading edge down crash. This is a great feature while learning as well as for advance riders in high winds who maybe make a mistake and whip the kite in. There are other brands that offer kites that may fall into the same category and use as the Ozone Access for less money. But the resale value and longevity of Ozone at just a couple of hundred more is well worth it down the road.

The bar system is comfortable to use with or without gloves. Occasionally the 5th line will get tangled on the flag out ball and is sometimes difficult to untangle. This isn't specific to this kite or to Ozone mind you. This is a common problem at one time or another with most 5th line kites which is why we really like front line flag out systems over 5th lines. But as the 5th line actuates the Re-Ride and does it cleanly 99% of the time we are willing to live with it.

The packs that come with the kite are very basic but seem durable. After a season of getting kicked around in the van, in the kite sled and on our backs they have held up flawlessly. They have enough room in them for a couple of kites as well as extra food/water and clothing.

Bottom Line: For beginner kiters the 2015 Ozone Access will allow you to grow as a kiter but you will never out grow the kite as it will transition from your learning kite to your high wind weapon of choice.

For expert fliers, over the years there have been a lot of kites that local riders have adopted for use in high winds. After flying the 2015 Access almost all the other kites seem like more work than they are worth in high winds. And much like a kite like a 18m Ozone Chrono will add to the number of light wind days you get in a season, a 4 or 6m Access will do the same at the other end of the spectrum.

Kite design and performance has really improved over the last few years and a thoughtfully chosen quiver of kites will ensure that you are unlikely to miss a snow kite session these days. Whether a beginning kiter or expert the Access is an excellent choice for your quiver.

robinsonpr - 27-4-2015 at 11:36 AM

Thanks Feyd, great review! I really fancy the 6m Access as I don't really have a depower kite for higher winds.

Just one thing on this comment you made:

Quote:

In conditions that I would normally shy away from bridled kites and resort back to my Peter Lynn Arc flying the Access proved to be more than suitable

Do you mean that the arcs are inherently better in these types of conditions because of the lack of bridles?

I have now been flying my arcs a few times with great results and I have finally got the ground handling and launching/landing sorted out. I WAS considering a smaller arc for higher winds. And a smaller used arc (maybe a 10m Venom?) would be a fraction of the price of a 2015 Access. Maybe $200 for a used arc against over $1000 for an Access.

I'm guessing that handling an arc in higher winds, even a smaller one, might be a handful. And potential to get lofted. Not that an Access *couldn't* loft me or yard me, but I imagine it's easier to handle, particularly with the setup and packdown using the re-ride.

Is it a no-brainer in favour of the Access?

Suds after thuds - 27-4-2015 at 03:04 PM

I enjoyed the detailed read and got an itch for a 6m kite.

kiteballoon - 27-4-2015 at 06:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

Thanks Feyd, great review! I really fancy the 6m Access as I don't really have a depower kite for higher winds.

Just one thing on this comment you made:

Quote:

In conditions that I would normally shy away from bridled kites and resort back to my Peter Lynn Arc flying the Access proved to be more than suitable

Feyd, another amazing review. I always get lovely mental pictures of your exploits and a desire to try the kite you describe.

I've had some wonderful and safe high wind sessions on my smaller ch2's. They have made me double-take much in the same way as you describe in your story about flying the 6m access in high wind. As the conditions got worse, I would grow more cautious, while the kite continued to safely deliver. A kite that behaves the same in 15 kts and 30 kts is a lovely thing!

So being an arc flyer, I'll second my desire to hear about how you feel these compare.

Feyd - 28-4-2015 at 05:09 AM

Thanks guys.

In answer to Robins' question, yes if you are looking more for a forgiving and safe kite in high winds (especially for less experienced kiters) the Access at this point would be my choice.

Now to be clear, I still think Arcs are the benchmark for gust handling. In the really nasty conditions the lack of bridling and flex in the wing offers some serious gust handling "suspension" and makes things smoother in the nasty. Over the years however bridled foils have progressed and have gotten very close to the gust handling ability of the Arcs. Some do it automatically to a point, like the Access while others, like Peaks, require more effort on the pilot's part to dump the excess power in a gust that the wing can't manage itself. Which really is not uncommon with a lot of kites including Arcs.

So you have a kite that is almost as good as an Arc for gust handling. Then take into account the ease of set up and pack down, the Re-Ride and the lack of lift and the Access comes out ahead for most people as a high wind kite.

The problem with smaller Arcs is as you have already figured out is they act very much the same as large arcs. Just a lot faster. Apart from an 8m Venom or small Vortex most small arcs tend to get too zippy in high winds for some people. And if you do make a mistake, say get too close to something and suddenly have to redirect overhead, Arcs will still generate enough lift to loft you where the Access, especially the 6 or 4m, simply don't seem to do that until you start getting into the 40kt range and even then its minimal. However the Access isn't fool proof. The 8m, in that same situation, can loft you a small amount.

We're really fortunate to have the opportunity to use and sell the kites that we do. Nobody, it seems is making a "bad" kite these days and there are kites out there for every taste. Basically it comes down to what you want/need from your kite.

I've been kiting now for 14yrs. 3yrs into my kiting I started flying arcs and never looked back. Last season was the first year, the year that the new Access and the FS Peak came to market and suddenly we had new kites that to our surprise offered the flight quality we loved the Arcs for but without having to deal with spars and inflation. I only rode an Arc once last season. My 8m Charger and it was only for a speed session at the end of the season. This year we were too busy and when I finally got some free time speed conditions never really came into play. So this year was the first in the last decade where I didn't fly an Arc once.

For our region, for general flying, these newer kites are simply easier and nearly as good or better in many ways. Arcs as a design are amazing and were so far ahead of the curve but these other kites are catching up. The F-Arc/Chrono for example. I love the F-Arc 1200. LOVE IT!!! Personality wise we are a perfect fit. But the Chrono has pretty much replaced the F-Arc in my choice for just all round hauling a$$, go dang near straight upwind, boost to the moon kind of kite. The Chrono just feels like "home" to me. Everything I learned about flying the F-Arc has enabled me to fly the Chrono in situations that I never would have thought the Chrono would be good in. But it also helps that the Chrono, though not as good at gust management as the F-Arc, is still pretty close but with the added benefit of a ton of depow compared to the F-Arc and the ability to go downwind almost as well as it goes upwind.

That was a bit of a tangent.

Long story short. Arcs are awesome kites. From a versatility POV they are hard to beat and only get beaten in the low wind category. Though we've seen even then, the right arc in the right hands can get the job done. But my feeling is that for a lot of kiters looking to just throw a kite up and ride, there are more user friendly options.

This all said, Arcs will likely continue to be my choice for speed.

kiteballoon - 28-4-2015 at 01:17 PM

Feyd, at some point in my life I'll need to do 2 things.

1) Snowkite
2) Fly some new ozone kites (access and chrono)

I have you to thank for the latter :-)

Further questions on the access. How much steering input is required to hold a line and keep the kite stable? Flying the peak 2 felt like it wanted a lot of steering input in comparison to what I'm used to. How does this rate? How about bar pressure? Is the power smooth and long, or is it a bit more of an on/off type thing?

The re-ride system sounds interesting! If I bumble and tangle things, am I in for some pain to straighten it out, or I am saved from additional tangle complexity by the addition of the re-ride system?

early bird2 - 10-11-2015 at 04:08 PM

Very good review , Thanks.

It would be interesting to see a self landing with the re ride system on video in strong Wind , As well as the chronos.....

Every videos from Ozone showing their security systems are taped in light winds .

Feyd - 10-11-2015 at 04:40 PM

We may have some footage from the day we did side by side testing with the Peak 2 4m. Let me see if I can track something down.:D

when you say Chrono, what specifically would you like to see? If you want to see the how the Re-Ride works in the Chrono, it doesn't. Closed cell.

Feyd - 10-11-2015 at 04:46 PM

Kiteballoon, The Access requires considerably less steering input than the Peak and offers lighter bar pressure as well. Power delivery is very smooth and only as abrupt as you want to make it. At the same time, you throw the bar out and it dumps power like crazy. In addition the Access flies very well when trimmed which is nice. Steering response is relatively zippy while trimmed.

The Re-ride system is pretty much fool proof and super handy.

early bird2 - 10-11-2015 at 07:16 PM

Feyd , about the Chrono , I meant self landing in strong Wind , to see how the security works. I just bought a 9 meters , I have not self land it in strong Wind yet , I know it will happen sooner or later . On the water it should not be a problem but on the snow ?

John Holgate - 10-11-2015 at 11:32 PM

GReat review, Chris. My 4m Access XT is a 2010 model and the 6m XC that I had was a 2008. Are you able to make any comparisons about the performance of the 2015 models compared to 5 years ago?

Feyd - 11-11-2015 at 05:26 AM

Thanks John. Think Access XT but even more stable and predictable. Especially at the edge of the window even in fluky winds. Better depower and better handling when depowered. Like a lot of these kites now they have near LEI performance in terms of depower and edge stability. I can't say enough how much I've come to love the Access. For teaching in our gusty winds it has made my life much less stressful and for riding on nukin' days I find myself in unconcerned about 40kt gusts when I have a 4m to fly. And if the wife wants to ride I can still go to the 6m and trim a little and be happy as hell.

The 6m is my favorite.:D

Another difference between the older and 2013+ models is how small they compact. Without having an older one to compare side by side I can't figure out exactly why or how but the current access really packs down small for a non-UL dual skin kite. You can easily fit 2 maybe 3 wings in a given bag.

Early Bird. The 9m is probably my favorite size. Tons of power, broadest wind range IMO. Once you really get a feel for flying it.

Landing in higher winds, 25 knt+ on the Chrono 9m can be done with the stall handle but it takes some muscle. Using the FLS is an easier option but one I rarely use. I usually just grab the stall handle yard it in and let myself drift downwind about 3m as the kite stalls. A lot less muscle required. But in general I don't find the 9m any harder to bring down in that wind range than any other 8-10m kites.

The new V2 is much more user friendly in all aspects, including landing. I wouldn't be too concerned. Just practice in moderate winds and get the muscle memory dialed. Once you get comfortable with it you'll be amazed what you'll fly that 9m in.:DD

You'll hardly touch your Mantas.

early bird2 - 11-11-2015 at 06:38 AM

Feyd , I appreciate your tips very much , we never know to much .

I bought this Chrono with the idea of departing with my mantas later , this is going to be tough , they behave so nicely.

Also , I'm on my way to switch my Flows for the new access and wanted to be certain the security system would work in high winds . I did some research and could not find any self landing in strong winds on a video , new access or a Chrono v2 . With air stuck in the Chrono it could be hairy compared to an open rams.

I've been kite skiing for over 14 years now and I know very well bad things could and will happen once in a while when stongs gusts start to hit . And then you are so happy when you can put your hands and knees onto this flapping kite ...

ssayre - 11-11-2015 at 07:28 AM

new access looks flippin awesome. would love to try one

Feyd - 11-11-2015 at 08:04 AM

Early, i hear you and totally understand. You're right there is some added headache when it comes to landing closed cells vs. open cells but at the same time there is some, for lack of a better term, predictability with closed cells that open cells lack. I'm trying to think of how best to quantify it. I think once you get used to it you will find it pretty sweet. And though I agree, the Manta is a great kite, the Chrono v.2 IMO is a hell of a lot more fun.:D

I'll see if I can track down some of that footage...

ssayre - 11-11-2015 at 08:34 AM

I must be in the wrong place, is this a chrono thread or an access thread? :P

Feyd - 11-11-2015 at 08:37 AM

I lost track for a second there...

Windstruck - 11-11-2015 at 01:29 PM

All this great re-ride and 6m Access worship took me over the edge and I just secured one from Chris earlier today. :cool:

I love the idea of having a safe, reliable and steady flying option for high wind days for Snowkiting this winter. This will be my first winter for kiting after spending the past six months or so buggying to my heart's content. I have greatly enjoyed my 4m Peak-2 and 2.5m NS3 for days with BIG wind, but face it, they move around like scalded cats and can be quite a handful (at least for me) to handle during take off and landing, not to mention darting all over the place in the sky.

I'm a decent kiter at this point and a strong skier, but I'm a complete newbie when it comes to Snowkiting. I am liking the idea of having a "beginner" kite for high winds. A man's got to know his limitations. :D

robinsonpr - 11-11-2015 at 02:53 PM

Congrats Steve!!!! I got a 6m Access as my higher wind kite a while back, after realising the 6m Peak gets a bit of a handful for me over 20mph. I've not had the Access out in nuking winds, but I did have it in 25-30mph and it was very well behaved.

Got some nuclear winds forecast this weekend, 40mph area. My friend who has been buggying a lot longer than me and has a full quiver of (older) Access's has recommended I don't go out with the 6m Access, and that only a 4m would suffice for those winds. I made a joke about trying the 6m trimmed right in (max depower) but he really says I need a 4m.

Any comments from those with experience of the newer Access in high winds? My 6m is a 2015 I think. It's definitely not the new "V6" but it does have the internal re-ride. And it's orange. Is that the same kite as the V6?

Here's another question...I already have the 6m complete. The dealer here in the UK has the V6 available as complete OR kite only. The 4m kite only is HALF THE PRICE of the complete option.

So....could I use the bar and lines from my 6m on the 4m? Or is the setup slightly different? Narrower bar?

Steve is your sig soon going to read Access (complete quiver)!?!!?

ssayre - 11-11-2015 at 02:54 PM

I live through you Steve. Yet another kite high on my wish list. We seem to have similar tastes. :thumbup:

Windstruck - 11-11-2015 at 03:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

Steve is your sig soon going to read Access (complete quiver)!?!!?

Robin, what on earth gave you that idea? Honestly, I don't know where you're coming from with a comment like that. :lol:

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I live through you Steve. Yet another kite high on my wish list. We seem to have similar tastes. :thumbup:

Sean, now that is just outright scary. Do you want to live through my arthritis pain and orthopedic surgeries too, or are you being a "cafeteria projectionist"? :lol:

ssayre - 11-11-2015 at 03:05 PM

If that gets me a 6m access and a 12m peak than yes

Windstruck - 11-11-2015 at 03:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

If that gets me a 6m access and a 12m peak then yes

:roll::bouncing::bouncy:

:moon:

Windstruck - 11-11-2015 at 04:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

So....could I use the bar and lines from my 6m on the 4m? Or is the setup slightly different? Narrower bar?

Robin - check out the table on wind speed and bar size. Same 45 cm bar for both 4m and 6m.

Wind speed and bar size

robinsonpr - 11-11-2015 at 04:08 PM

Ooooo yes! I might just pick up the 4m sail!

Hopefully the bar and lines are the same from the 2015-2016 model. I do have the 're-ride internal thing.

Thanks Steve!

Windstruck - 11-11-2015 at 04:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

Hopefully the bar and lines are the same from the 2015-2016 model.

Sounds like a dandy question for the dealer you will be buying that little bugger from. :saint:

windrider1 - 12-11-2015 at 08:07 AM

so where is the unedited video ummm / evidence of the peak 2 4 M in 40knt winds ? would love to see how well behaved this kite is. I heard otherwise.

ssayre - 12-11-2015 at 09:08 AM

Steve, your addition of the access makes me the only one I can think of with exclusively single skin. Maybe Randy has all single skin?

ssayre - 12-11-2015 at 09:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by windrider1

so where is the unedited video ummm / evidence of the peak 2 4 M in 40knt winds ? would love to see how well behaved this kite is. I heard otherwise.

Who are your referring to?? It wouldn't be feyd would it? I honestly can't remember if he has made that claim but if he did, he certainly doesn't have to provide video evidence of any claim he has made on any gear. His track record and all his previous reviews and videos speak for themselves. On top of that, his comprehensive reviews on gear and the shear number of different kites he's reviewed is evidence enough that they are non biased. Just my 2 cents, if it was in his review your referring to. Again, don't know for sure, but I was just guessing and I didn't re-read the thread to find out.

Windstruck - 12-11-2015 at 04:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by windrider1

so where is the unedited video ummm / evidence of the peak 2 4 M in 40knt winds ? would love to see how well behaved this kite is. I heard otherwise.

So, I suspect that comments about the action and control of the 4m P2 comes from the following review by Chris (fewd):

http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/kite-and-gear-reviews/2015-ozo...

Careful reading of this review will actually leave the reader likely concluding that the Ozone Access gets the nod, something pretty well reinforced in a more complete review of the Access found here:

http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/kite-and-gear-reviews/ozone-ac...

As the current owner of the actual 4m P2 used in the high wind test I can vouch for its nice handling in winds up to about 30+ mph gusts when rode in a buggy. You can judge for yourself by watching this video here, taken on the very first day I ever flew the kite:

http://youtu.be/d_HY_ZGkBrY

This is my first year flying traction kites as motive power for buggies, etc. I suspect somebody as experienced and skilled as Chris (in his 14th year kiting I believe) would handle this kite far better than me, but I did alright. 40 knots would be a handful I'd think for any kite, certainly in my hands.

I actually just bought a 6m Access from Chris this week so I should be able to compare the two as well.

I realize you are just throwing a couple of sentences into the thread, but I'd second what Sean said about Chris being one of our best sources for information on this forum.

Feyd - 13-11-2015 at 05:28 AM

Ha, its been a while since anyone implied that I'm being somehow dishonest.
Thanks for the kind words Ssayre and Windstruck. I appreciate it.

To be fair, our reports on the Peak offer some pretty remarkable opinions and results. Claims that if someone I didn't know made to me, never having flown kite XYZ, I'd be skeptical of as well.

Windrider1, or gemini something or other, as I have recently been looking for the raw footage for someone else( to demonstrate the Access kite's Re-ride function in high winds) and come up empty handed I'm afraid that I can't show you footage from the day we did the comparison. Which Sux because it was some pretty wild footage. But I have a lot of footage on a lot of drives and sometimes I don't label things as well as I should. It provides me endless frustration. To be sure.:evil:

As is often stated in our reviews, certain performance parameters of a given kite can and will be met when flown by riders of a certain skill level. IF you don't have adequate piloting skills, you aren't going to fly anything in 40kts.

If you have "heard" that the Peak 4m cannot be manageable in 40kt gusts then its likely that the individual(s) who "claim otherwise" as kiters, fall into the description above.

Its not a reflection on the kite IMO.

Being able to manage the Peak or any other kite in wind ranges beyond the factory spec does not mean its ideal, usually its a lot of work and brutal, but doable none the less. We like to test these kites in these conditions to show what they are capable of in the extreme ends of their use spectrum. If the kite doesn't want to kill me in gusts 40kts+ it should be really nice to me in the recommended wind range.

Having flown the 6m peak 1 in gusts up to 40kts plus, which there is footage of me doing so at nearly 70MPH, on our YouTube channel, and flying in similar but more turbulent conditions on the 4m, I am confident in my assessment the smaller 4m peaks high wind ability.

The bottom line is this. You only live in New York. If you want to see these kites in action first hand for yourself and eliminate any doubt about me or my claims you are more than welcome to come ride with us up here in New Hampshire. We'd be more than happy to show you around, fly some kites and put you doubts to rest. It's worth the trip I assure you.

Further discussion on this topic, if any, should be continued either on the Peak thread or Peak review.

robinsonpr - 13-11-2015 at 05:35 AM

Hey Feyd can you answer my question on the 6m/4m Access... Will the bar and lines from a 2015 Orange 6m Access work with a brand new 4m Access V6 purchased as kite only?

We are expecting 30mph this weekend with gusts up to 40-45 and I don't have loads of experience in high winds. I'm in a big heavy buggy though. I think I'll give the 6m Access a try even though my buddy says I will need a 4m in those winds.

Feyd - 13-11-2015 at 05:40 AM

Yes. They have made some changes to the Re-ride for 2016 but those are only at the bar. The kites are cross compatible.

Feyd - 13-11-2015 at 09:28 AM

An update on the stopper ball question. I've been testing the Access sans Stopper. Obviously the system works as it relies on being attached to your leash to kill the power. The downside is that it allows the bar to head out but eliminates the ability to pull the bar back in to Re-Ride. :rolleyes:

Soooooo, if you don't use the Re-Ride for anything but emergencies, it's pretty sweet not having the stoppers. If you regularly use the reride to launch and land, keep the PITA stoppers.

As I stated a while back Chrono 2's and R1's we've seen do not come with stoppers. That's because of IKA regs and the kites we have we ordered with the race bars which are mandated to have complete flag out.

There needs to be a better stopper ball. Maybe not a ball at all but something less tangly.

windrider1 - 13-11-2015 at 10:14 AM

aha the footage has mysteriously disappeared. we need to get a good private eye on this case. :lol:

or may be I will look up some of my own footage of the 4m's bad behavior to post when I have time. In all fairness I flew the 6m and it flew ok.

robinsonpr - 15-11-2015 at 02:07 AM

Hey Feyd I was hoping to go out with my 6m Access today but the winds are 32mph with gusts up to a gnarly 47mph. Don't fancy my chances with the 6m with my experience, I've never been out in REALLY high winds.

So my question.... Could the lines on the Access be doubled back like you've mentioned on another thread, to give me an option for nuking winds?

I don't really have the funds for a 4m just to use in these once or twice a year conditions.

Feyd - 15-11-2015 at 04:39 AM

Yes. On Re-ride equipped kites the tricky part to half lining is the Re Ride line. After you've done the four main lines you'll see what I mean. Its easy to do but not as straight forward as the other 4. I'd post a pic but I'm not near the kites ATM.

robinsonpr - 15-11-2015 at 12:14 PM

Thanks Chris! I managed it. Like you said it wasn't obvious how to do the re-ride lines. I ended up putting a stopper knot on the end I detached from the kite, I'm sure there is a better way!

I didn't have a good time with it on half lines. To be honest I had no business trying to fly in that wind. 25mph and I recorded 45mph gusts on my wind meter. I quickly gave up, it was way too lively on short lines in that wind. I had no time to react to it moving so fast.

I got to try my friend's 4m Access instead. It's an older model, probably XC I think with the top hat safety.

I didn't have any better time of it. Thought I was doing OK but then had a massive OBE followed by some serious draggage. Probably pilot error, I was having a hard time transitioning without getting REALLY powered up.

I packed up, I'll leave buggying in 45mph to the big boys for now!!!

ssayre - 15-11-2015 at 12:20 PM

gusting 40's I reserve for my 2.5 nasa star on short lines unhooked. Even then I have bent my bar and can't ride very long because im taking the load on my arms. If I had that wind often, I would get a 1.5 meter nasa star. John Holegate has a video riding comfortably hooked in and in very high wind with that set up. Looks fun.

John Holgate - 15-11-2015 at 01:52 PM

I've had my 4m Access XT out in 30 knots on a couple of occasions - it keeps me on my toes (so to speak) and will punish me with any errors really FAST. I think as buggiers, we have to keep in mind that snowkiters are generally using their kites a lot higher in the window (I think) and their skis are attached so the odd little loft is not so much of a problem. Having said that, I've never snowkited so please feel free to correct me.

Faced with 30knots now, I'd put up the 1.5m NS2. 35 knots and I'm heading to the cafe for a coffee.

Prussik - 15-11-2015 at 02:35 PM

In 40’s I fly 1.5 reduced to 1.2 on LONG lines always hooked in, one-handed – I feel very uncomfortable unhooked with the pull on both arms twisting the upper body. One of the reasons I gave up on short lines on Nasas was the difficulty in handling overpowering, gusty and shifty conditions – there is just not enough distance (and therefore time) between the edge of the window and its centre. (The other reason was the impossibility of doing a decent, powered up jibe what is important to me). When seriously powered up, the kite will be parked low at the edge of the window and the longer lines have no effect on the generated force – the kite is just further away from the kiter – that’s it. The advantage of longer lines is at the lower end when a lot of extra power can be generated more efficiently by skilful flying thus providing a surprisingly wide depower range between flying and parking. I generally try to keep my kites low, high only in passing, and certainly do not linger up high unnecessarily long – this way I have never been lofted in 20 years of kiting.

ssayre - 15-11-2015 at 02:39 PM

Thanks for the input Prussik. sounds like good advice.

Feyd - 16-11-2015 at 06:02 AM

Having never been in a buggy I have don't have a solid concept of how certain aspects of flying certain kites come into play. But I think in general most of what we all experience is for the most part cross compatible but no doubt some adaption is required. For example on ice or other hard snow conditions, the ability to maintain an edge and the resulting lack of downwind drift allows us to pull off a lot of things that a rider on other surfaces e.g. Water, sand, grass cannot.

I like PrussiS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s approach with the Nasa's. As with any flying in unusual conditions I bet it is highly reliant on top notch piloting skills to take full advantage.

Robin. It takes some time to get used to flying the kite half lined. Throwing yourself right into the conditions that warrant it most probably isn't the best decision.:P But at least it give you some sense of how it works. To be clear, half lining is a great way to deal with high wind situations in a pinch but very few kites fly really well half lined. Arcs and Peaks IMO do it best. The most recent Access, Frenzy and Summit Ozones do it very well. HQ Apex 4's on the other hand, take a little more effort. But still very doable. I got trapped about 3 miles out on the 11m Apex and halflining was the only reason I was able to make it back. Wasn't fun but doable.

John. On snow it depends on the rider, the surface and what they want to do. For me I like the kite deep in the window and down low (see pic). Most won't ride so low because it tends to pull one of one's edge. If the surface is really rough and chundery or deep powder I ride the kite higher to reduce my weight on the surface and allow for more of a skimming effect. In the gusty conditions low keeps me from being lofted and allows for some really great sprints.

early bird2 - 16-11-2015 at 07:05 AM

Feyd , thanks for the tips you bring on this forum , this is very kind from you .
About halflining , I could'nt find where you talked about it , do you mean that you carry shorter lines along with you or : you manage to shorten the existing ones.
Also , from your experiments , if you switch to shorter ones , what is the shortest lenght works the best on ozone kites .

I used to play with it and it did not work too good , maybe I was trying too shorts back then . If I remember well I had around 10 meters.

ssayre - 16-11-2015 at 07:15 AM

never tried half or short line on anything other than peak and nasa which work great. Good advice from feyd to practice short line before you really need it. Transitions are different and getting used to kite behavior on short lines take a couple sessions to lock in muscle memory.

Windstruck - 16-11-2015 at 07:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by windrider1

I will look up some of my own footage of the 4m's bad behavior to post

Stay tuned buttercup. I was on Lake Ivanpah yesterday buggying with my 4m P2 in the strongest winds of my life (up around 30 mph with gusts well over that). Peak held steady as a rock. I've got quite a bit of GoPro footage from a helmet mount. I'll post it later this week once I get home. It will be edited for stylistic purposes but there won't be any crap left on the editing room floor as she was a darling the entire time.

Most importantly, I felt SAFE and confident using this kite as the engine under those conditions. She was a lot easier to fly than my 2.5m NS3 which was fine when held steady, but is so incredibly fast (for me) that I crashed it a few times into the Playa when I just made small pilot errors with the bar.

Something I was extremely pleased with was how effective using the trim line was during takeoff and landing. I cranked the trim line all the way in before take off, gave her a shake and she lept off the Playa and screamed up to zenith with almost no pull. It made me laugh out loud. I didn't know what was going to happen but I did not think it would be so effortless to get it into the air. With the kite at zenith and pretty much no pull I just sat down in my buggy let out the trim line to about three inches from all the way out (my standard flying setting), dropped her into the power zone and ZOOM.

So... Let's please stop crapping on this wonderful little kite. Remember, sometimes when the arrow misses its mark the issue is not with the bow but rather the archer. :saint:

Feyd - 16-11-2015 at 08:29 AM

Real quick. I just came in from flying our new 2016 Access 4m. Found some changes that was not made aware of by Ozone. Nothing major, nothing that changes how the kite flies, just refinements to the Re-Ride. I was going to fly all of them but was only able to fly the 4m due to gust factor (gusts to about 25kt+).

I forgot to bring the GoPro. Would have been good Re-Ride demo conditions.

I still cannot get over how well these kites handle janky winds or how well they fly when depowed. Just a joy to fly.

ssayre - 16-11-2015 at 08:31 AM

Feyd, please reserve comments for the access in the access thread please. Oh wait, this is the access thread :P

robinsonpr - 16-11-2015 at 08:34 AM

Feyd...is the newer model way better behaved than the old model circa 2010? Just wondered as I got pretty beat up yesterday by my buddy's old 4m Access. He was fine with it, as I said earlier on this thread it was probably just pilot error and my own lack of high wind experience. I need to build my way up to the wind I was mad enough to go out in yesterday. Obviously the re-ride is a major improvement but I just wondered if the actual kite characteristics are different on the 2015/2016 kite?

Prussik - 16-11-2015 at 10:19 AM

Half lining ?. I fail to see how shorter lines can reduce the kite power in overpowering conditions. The kite is already parked low with the same orientation and wind exposure, the only difference being the distance to the kiter. Unless you shorten the lines to the point of affecting the projected area. And the turbulence is easier to handle - in my opinion - on longer lines.

Feyd - 16-11-2015 at 11:03 AM

That's exactly what is being done Prussik.:P. We lengthen to get more power out of a given kite, shorten to diminish.

You can imagine the difference between 21m and then shorten to 10.5m. Our Flysurfer Virons come with lines that are modular, essentially just a series of extensions, for this very reason.

Yes Robin there is a considerable difference. The 2010 Access was a great kite but was little better than the HQ Apex at the time IMO. More refined but didn't do enough for me to warrant the extra $$$. We really saw a big difference in 2012/13. Thats where Ozone really made strides with the Access. It does everything better now IMO. It's very user friendly without being boring.

Ssayer, you tricked me. I scrolled up to make sure I was in the right place.

Viron compare?

fodendeyo - 27-11-2015 at 11:26 AM

Hey Chris
Your mention of the Viron - how does that compare to the access in similar sizes? Good in strong winds? Gusts?

Thanks

Feyd - 28-11-2015 at 05:19 AM

The Viron2 DLX is an interesting kite. Very similar high wind performance to the Access. In fact side by side the 4m versions of both kites feel nearly identical. Initially I was told the original Viron wasn't suited for serious high wind use but that seems to have changed with the current version. The wind ranges on the Viron are easily on par with the Access, with some slight edge on the low end due to the DLX material.

Gust handling is about the same. The Access is a faster turning kite slightly.

For a skilled pilot, who is not likely to whip the kite in during a high wind session, I think the Viron can be a dream to flynin high winds. But as a closed cell, ultra light material kite, she may not be the best kite to crash in those conditions. As opposed to the Access which is not only open cell but has blow out vents in the event you whip in leading edge down.

We use the smaller Virons as school kites for our smallest/lightest riders. They are super easy to fly and depower much like a @ Peak 2. And the auto relaunch is really nice for beginners. Though for advanced riders in high winds the kites willingness to launch, even when you don't want it to, can be nerve wracking. Not an issue with the bar out but still.

The Viron, like the Access, is a great kite in high winds. But I would suggest a little more care when flying it in nasty stuff.

fodendeyo - 29-11-2015 at 01:59 AM

Thanks Chris

Windstruck - 13-1-2016 at 08:56 PM

I got to snowkite with my 6m Access V6 for the first time today. While it was underpowered with the winds in the low 20s I got enough of a taste of it to realize its incredible potential as a high wind storm kite. It almost felt like cheating having a kite so well behaved in the air. The ReRide system is dynamite under these conditions. I used the cross strap to bring the kite down to the ground and then popped the chicken loop to deploy the ReRide and keep the kite from moving across the snow while I wound up the lines. SWEET.

I got this kite from Chris at Hardwater and I'm darn glad I did. I will have a lot of confidence launching this kite in BIG winds this winter. Thanks Chris!

A guy kiting at the same spot I was at today had the Ozone Summit up (I think the 12m) He was having a blast with it and his boosts looked really predictable and tons of fun. This spot has lots of undulations and "features" that I was launching off of with my 12m P2. First (purposeful) air I ever got. Now that I got a taste, Daddy wants more! :evil:

Feyd - 14-1-2016 at 07:04 AM

Ha! Glad to hear it. Yesterday I got out a bit on the 6m myself while doing post storm site inspections up north. Man did they nail the forecast and I was psyched to have the 6m. I took a look at 11am (screen shot convinced me to go) and I got to the riding area about noon. Pretty small lake, visibility due to the drifting snow was well below 1/4 mile when the gusts came through. Felt very much like the day we did the Peak/Access comparison. Measured the wind for about 5 minutes and varied 18kts to 28kts. Thought the forecast was off. Opted to hedge my bet and grabbed the 6m Access (was going to grab the 7m R1) and set it up. About 2 minutes into riding a wall of white, looked like it was boiling, came at me from the west. Had to be about 35-40kts. Then it continued for about an hour that way.

Actually had to fully trim the 6m and put her to the window's edge. It's only the second time I've had to fully trim that kite. Even at it's worse I never felt concerned while on that kite. Can't stress enough how a kite like that changes your whole perspective of high wind days.

Windstruck - 14-1-2016 at 08:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

Ha! Glad to hear it. Yesterday I got out a bit on the 6m myself while doing post storm site inspections up north. Man did they nail the forecast and I was psyched to have the 6m. I took a look at 11am (screen shot convinced me to go) and I got to the riding area about noon. Pretty small lake, visibility due to the drifting snow was well below 1/4 mile when the gusts came through. Felt very much like the day we did the Peak/Access comparison. Measured the wind for about 5 minutes and varied 18kts to 28kts. Thought the forecast was off. Opted to hedge my bet and grabbed the 6m Access (was going to grab the 7m R1) and set it up. About 2 minutes into riding a wall of white, looked like it was boiling, came at me from the west. Had to be about 35-40kts. Then it continued for about an hour that way.

Actually had to fully trim the 6m and put her to the window's edge. It's only the second time I've had to fully trim that kite. Even at it's worse I never felt concerned while on that kite. Can't stress enough how a kite like that changes your whole perspective of high wind days.

Great stuff Chris. So glad you had a good day.

Windstruck - 13-2-2016 at 05:49 PM

Had to 6m Access out for a lively and super fun Snowkite session today. Man, what a sweet kite! I'm glad I wasn't borderline so overpowered today because I'd telemarked the past three days and my legs were a little tuckered out.

Man the Re-Ride system is the deal for Snowkiting! About every 10 minutes or so I'd just reach out and grab the fifth line and haul it in about 2 meters. This doesn't take any large amount of force. The kite just crumples and collapses on the ground with no pull. Great for resting tired legs. I found that the kite tends to end up sitting on the snow nose down when I did this. When it was time to go again I just let go of the 5th line and it played back out on its own. A simple tug on the brake line cross strap and away you go!

Same deal when you pack it up; just crumple it down on the snow, wrap the slack in the 5th line around the bar and then fig-8 your lines standing right where you are, drawing the kite towards you on the snow. It has just enough pull to put some tension on the lines so they go nice and snug on the bar.

Now that I've got Ozone re-ride kites in 6, 9, and 15m sizes I just may use them exclusively for Snowkiting. My single skins will then become my buggy and skate engines in the non-winter months. Dialed in and stoked!

robinsonpr - 14-2-2016 at 01:09 AM

Nice stoke Steve! I've also got one to share from yesterday involving my 6m Access. I had a monster buggy session. Finally got a decent onshore wind at a beach I can drive to (3 hours drive though!). It was pretty windy, 26mph gusting into 30s. My smallest kite is the 6m as the 4m hasnt arrived yet. My buddy was on his 4m and having a blast. I was on the 6m, well lit. I had it trimmed all the way in at the cleat, still handled nice. It didn't scare me too much, even in the gusts. And the re ride. Yes! My friend popped the top hat on the 4 to land it but the thing still wanted to fly on the back lines! I simply pulled the magic 2 metres through the chicken loop and down she came. Did you see there's a little split in the 5th line so you can hook it over your bar end? When I was ready to go again the kite opened up nicely when I let the 5th go. Perfect. I did 108 miles, top speed of 46.3mph. Well chuffed with that!!

Windstruck - 14-2-2016 at 06:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

Nice stoke Steve! I've also got one to share from yesterday involving my 6m Access. I had a monster buggy session. Finally got a decent onshore wind at a beach I can drive to (3 hours drive though!). It was pretty windy, 26mph gusting into 30s. My smallest kite is the 6m as the 4m hasnt arrived yet. My buddy was on his 4m and having a blast. I was on the 6m, well lit. I had it trimmed all the way in at the cleat, still handled nice. It didn't scare me too much, even in the gusts. And the re ride. Yes! My friend popped the top hat on the 4 to land it but the thing still wanted to fly on the back lines! I simply pulled the magic 2 metres through the chicken loop and down she came. Did you see there's a little split in the 5th line so you can hook it over your bar end? When I was ready to go again the kite opened up nicely when I let the 5th go. Perfect. I did 108 miles, top speed of 46.3mph. Well chuffed with that!!

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

That sounds like a GREAT session indeed. That much wind would have had you lit for sure. Good thing you now have that new monster buggy ride of yours. I've flown my 15m Summit with the cleat adjustment all the way in and it too flew well without complaints.

The 12m Peak2 as you may have found out by now will fly fully trimmed but it won't behave as well as the Ozones fully trimmed. The Peak gets a bow in it along the leading edge and seems to get a little huffy under such duress. Single skin versus double.

Yup, well aware of that little line split. The way I pack up is I draw the 5th line in to land the kite, hook the line split over the end of the bar, wrap the excess 5th line around the bar out near where I hooked the line split and then figure-8 the rest, pulling the kite towards me on the snow. Easy peasy nice and easy. :karate:

robinsonpr - 14-2-2016 at 06:38 AM

I saw you had sneaked in a couple of other Ozones alongside your Access! 15m Summit must be a beast!!

Windstruck - 14-2-2016 at 06:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

15m Summit must be a beast!!

"She's a whole lot of woman" as I like to say. :lol:

Truth be told, like most very strong woman, she scares me a little bit. :karate:

Utahtami, a local legend around these parts, recently sold it to me near new. I've flown it twice, once in wind light enough that I had trouble launching it and the second in a session that started calmly but then picked up wind wise resulting in the full trim state. I got it for boosting on skis and hopefully skates. That girl's got some lift! Tami is a little, err, vertically challenged and the throw on the bar was too long for her. I measure in at 6-ft even and I've got long arms, but I wouldn't want another inch of throw to the bar either so I can totally see how somebody with shorter arms would find the kite hard to fly.

skier - 29-2-2016 at 11:51 AM

First year snowkiting on a new 2015 Access 10m. I took one short lesson and have been out about 15 times this winter. I have a few questions that might or might not belong on this thread but I'll ask:

1) The re-ride I started using recently. It is perfect for killing the kite and taking a break or whatever. On the relaunch, your basically forced to hot launch, which is what I usually do as I've been going out in lighter winds. Is the "hot launch" SOP for this kite on skis? ie if the winds are to high for hot launching, is it just time to step down to a smaller kite size? Or is this whole concept of the hot launch being "bad" restricted to water kiting under higher winds? I ask because I hot launched under higher gusty winds recently and, well....got launched. (I admit, it was very gusty; i should not have attempted, lesson learned)

2)Concerning depower. When riding along with the kite parked, when I pull in the bar, the kite falls back, almost appears to stall, and is very sensitive to bar movement. When I bar out, the kite moves forward and appears to have more power. Is this correct? I thought it was supposed to be the opposite. So is depowering while riding achieved by trimming the front lines of the kite? Right now the only use I've learned of "bar in" is while turning, as the kite makes sharper, quicker turns. When else does one bar in?
How else can one minimize/maximize power while riding?(I understand some of the techniques like power stroking and looping uphill, just wondering if I'm missing anything in the bar operation.)

Demoknight - 29-2-2016 at 03:30 PM

To clarify how a depower kite works, again: When you pull the bar in, the kite pulls harder, but it slows down and sometimes stalls if you don't have much forward speed and apparent wind. When you let the bar out, the kite has less resistance and will lessen the pull, but speed up. Sometimes this makes for a moment of more power, but once the kite is at the edge of the window, it does pull less with the bar out.

ssayre - 29-2-2016 at 04:08 PM

Seems there are a lot of new snow kiters lately with depower questions. One common theme seems to be kite operation questions. A lot of us on here started flying fixed bridle 4 line on handles static, then added movement, then picked up depower with ease and all self taught. if you do not want proceed with lessons then the time must be spent flying static before getting moving. I would highly recommend spending some time getting to know your kite in various wind conditions and get an idea of how it flies. These are fundamental concepts that one should completely understand before being in motion safely. Im not at all criticizing because this is a common issue but wish to make you aware that spending 5 or 6 sessions flying the kite static and manipulating the bar and trim all while practicing flying the kite through the window in different conditions will go a long way to answer your questions and better prepare yourself for the task at hand.

Feyd - 29-2-2016 at 04:40 PM

Myth 1. "Depower kites aren't for static flying".

Static flying is a great way to learn to manage the power and handling of ANY kite.

Myth 2. Hot launches are dangerous and should only be done in low winds.

Hot launches can be executed safely even in high winds. If your kite hangs a smack down on you during hot launch you are doing it wrong and need to make some changes. The key is DONT FIGHT THE KITE. The kite can only build power in the center of the window if the rider offers resistance. Edge slightly against it to maintain tension for steering control but let the kite take you. As you move with the kite power is minimal as the kite rises and bleeds off as it approaches 12:00. At worst you slide downwind 15-20'. Sheeting in during hot launch in high winds will get you into trouble. Bar out is the general rule.

If the kite is stalling when you sheet it, you aren't in enough wind or you aren't letting the kite build enough airspeed to tolerate the change in angle of attack. Your outside lines serve a couple of functions. They steer the kite, change the angle of attack resulting in lift overhead and power when in the wind window. But they also act as a means of braking in the right winds.

ssayre - 29-2-2016 at 04:45 PM

Seriously, (while static) fly the kite across the window and when it's flying fast through the middle pull the bar in. Let us know what happens then :D That's all it takes plus a good 20 hours all static if no lessons.

Memopad - 29-2-2016 at 07:53 PM

I'm guilty of being a complete noob and asking a lot of questions, some of them probably pretty dumb

So thanks for being tolerant and answering our noobish questions. You guys have certainly shortened my learning curve on kite operations. I still suck but I "get" what's supposed to be happening. You guys are a great resource!

Windstruck - 1-3-2016 at 06:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by skier

Is the "hot launch" SOP for this kite on skis? ie if the winds are to high for hot launching, is it just time to step down to a smaller kite size? Or is this whole concept of the hot launch being "bad" restricted to water kiting under higher winds? I ask because I hot launched under higher gusty winds recently and, well....got launched.

Two keys to hot launching on skis. First, point your skis directly towards to the kite, or at best maybe 30 degrees away from the kite towards the direction you intend to travel. Second, have the bar out.

I've found that most of my relaunches after pulling in the 5th line with my hands on Re-Ride kites end up being reverse launches. Once the kite sort of unfolds itself on the snow it seems to end up being nose down 90% of the time. So... skis pointed towards kite, check, bar out, check, pull on brake line cross strap until kite is off the ground about 15-20 feet, check, swoop the kite down and towards the direction of intended travel, check, take the acceleration, check, make your bottom turn, check, off you go!

As Chris (feyd) was mentioning, the important thing here is that you are skiing downwind throughout the hot launch. This will bleed most of the power out of the launch and it really isn't such a big event.

One more important point to consider is downwind obstacles BEFORE you pull in the 5th re-ride line to take a rest. Account for the fact that you will likely need to hot launch to get things going again after your rest, so leave plenty of space for yourself to accomplish the maneuver I described above. Done as described it is a pretty fun way to get things moving again.

Good luck!

robinsonpr - 1-3-2016 at 07:17 AM

I must admit I'm a real scaredy cat with the hot launch in higher winds. I have done a few with my 6m Access in 25mph+ and had some serious brown trouser moments. I'm talking buggy here though, not skis. I have been pulled right up and over the footpegs, in spite of having the buggy pointing directly downwind towards the kite. I think the issue here is the resistance that Feyd talks about. It's a big heavy buggy, and the surface (uncut grass) offered quite a bit of resistance. I guess it's just not possible for the buggy to accelerate quick enough from a standstill to allow the power from the kite to bleed off. In higher wind now I launch by having the kite flagged out towards the edge of the window with a weight on the upwind tip. Rolling back at a 45 degree angle to the kite puts tension on the downwind tip and up she goes but not right through the power. Similar to way an arc is launched I guess, that's where I got the idea

Feyd - 1-3-2016 at 08:04 AM

Hot launches, be it on a board or ski, function essentially the same. As Windstruck points out, as long as you are facing and pointing downwind and allow for some downwind drift all works well.

Buggies, that's a bit different I would imagine. :D Robin's description is a pretty common launch method and is effective and illustrated in Flysurfer, Ozone and HQ manuals. Unfortunately it relies heavily on a consistent wind direction which in many cases is not available. Trying to launch at 45deg in my kiting environment is a lesson in frustration and usually ends in some type of bow tie or invert. Some days you are prepped for launch and the kite blows right at you. The less time we spend with the kite sitting on the surface the better which is why we almost exclusively do hot launches here.

There's nothing wrong with being apprehensive about hot launches. They can be intimidating without someone right there with you to walk you through it. A little apprehension can save your bacon sometimes in a lot of kite handling. Easing into things is the key and picking your moments. If the wind is deafening in both ears, don't launch.

If you want to get comfortable with hot launches, practice in lower winds and get a feel for it. Get comfortable with moving with the key and bleeding off the power as the kite goes to zenith.

Demoknight - 1-3-2016 at 08:27 AM

Robin is right about hot launching in a buggy. You will get yanked over your forks unless you are hotwired. I have been pulled over my forks before and it isn't fun. In the case of a buggy, you can hot launch on foot if the case requires it. You just make sure you have nothing downwind of you and scud it out while the kite inflates and goes up. Then you can park it at the side of the window and walk to your buggy to have a seat and get rolling. 99% of the time I have my kite in the air before I sit in my buggy. It is the safest way, even though sometimes in gusty conditions it can take a while for you to actually take your eyes off the kite long enough to sit down in the buggy.

ssayre - 1-3-2016 at 08:39 AM

I side launch directly downwind when hotwired, BUT my buggy has to be at an angle to prevent a steering line getting caught on a foot peg. If it doesn't launch with my first tug of the downwind steering line, then I have to try and push myself back with my feet trying to steer the buggy, keep any slack line from getting tangled on buggy, and get the kite to to catch hold of the wind. Luckily the peak is forgiving but only to a point. It will suddenly sort itself out then take you for a quick burst. I haven't turtled yet so it's worked fine so far but can definitely be unnerving. generally speaking, as soon as the kite takes hold, I obviously leave the bar out but I also try and keep it steered to one side but NOT UP.

skier - 1-3-2016 at 08:50 AM

Good advice. Sounds like most of my problem during the hot launch is having gotten used to doing it under light winds. As the kite rises off the ground, I turn myself and the kite in the direction I want to go immediately as I'm looking to create more power, which is great in lighter winds, but troublesome in higher winds.

So on the hot launch in higher winds, bar out, follow the kite downwind as it rises and loses power.
What about trimming in the front lines of the kite before launching?
Any worries about being lofted as the kite approaches 12? How to prevent? Wait until kite is just above 45 degrees before turning?

Windstruck - 1-3-2016 at 09:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

I must admit I'm a real scaredy cat with the hot launch in higher winds. I have done a few with my 6m Access in 25mph+ and had some serious brown trouser moments. I'm talking buggy here though, not skis. I have been pulled right up and over the footpegs, in spite of having the buggy pointing directly downwind towards the kite. I think the issue here is the resistance that Feyd talks about. It's a big heavy buggy, and the surface (uncut grass) offered quite a bit of resistance. I guess it's just not possible for the buggy to accelerate quick enough from a standstill to allow the power from the kite to bleed off. In higher wind now I launch by having the kite flagged out towards the edge of the window with a weight on the upwind tip. Rolling back at a 45 degree angle to the kite puts tension on the downwind tip and up she goes but not right through the power. Similar to way an arc is launched I guess, that's where I got the idea

Having a buggy the size of a Humvee as you do is most certainly your issue. I've had many Code Brown moments as well in various kite venues; that's good healthy fear in my opinion. Just body weight on slippery skis pointing down wind is just a whole different situation.

One funny little tale of mine involves my 6m Ozone Access too. I fell down in deep snow about a month ago and ended up with my kite down on the ground in 25-ish winds. Rather than struggle to try and right myself without poles (something I at least find a bit hard to do) I thought why not let the kite pull me up? Great call numbnuts. What this became was a hot launch with no ability to scrub power by skiing downwind. The Access launched me about six feet in the air and re-deposited me into the snow downwind about 15 feet. I was completely unhurt (other than my ego which took a pretty healthy bruise) and I had a good laugh about it. Needless to say I struggled to my feet before attempting that again. :karate:

ssayre - 1-3-2016 at 09:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by skier

Good advice. Sounds like most of my problem during the hot launch is having gotten used to doing it under light winds. As the kite rises off the ground, I turn myself and the kite in the direction I want to go immediately as I'm looking to create more power, which is great in lighter winds, but troublesome in higher winds.

So on the hot launch in higher winds, bar out, follow the kite downwind as it rises and loses power.
What about trimming in the front lines of the kite before launching?
Any worries about being lofted as the kite approaches 12? How to prevent? Wait until kite is just above 45 degrees before turning?

if you can, it's better to steer the kite (with bar out) to one side and avoid going straight up.

Demoknight - 4-3-2016 at 05:16 PM

If you are worried about hot launching in your buggy, I would think that actually having your buggy pointed almost directly cross wind would be the best way. The side bars will keep you in the buggy a lot better and you don't risk coming over the forks. If you have good rails, which I assume you do if you have a big heavy bug, then it should be a non-event. Just a bit of sliding and you can steer into the skid and be on your way.

skier - 19-9-2016 at 08:41 AM

Wondering if anyone has a solution to the minor tear starting on the hole where 5th line enters kite? Both sides are wearing equally, just not sure what/if anything should be done. Looks like the 2016 has a plastic eyelet.

John Holgate - 19-9-2016 at 02:28 PM

Quote:

I would think that actually having your buggy pointed almost directly cross wind would be the best way.

On a hard surface that seems to work ok, but don't do it on a soft surface - the tyres can just dig in and flip you over. I tend to launch from the buggy half way between the two....maybe a little more towards the downwind. Watch out if you do that with a tandem or passenger - then it's much easier to get lifted out.

Loving the 4m

fodendeyo - 9-11-2016 at 02:05 AM

Just want to give some more feedback about the Ozone Access kites. A few months back I decided to update my Access 4m. I brought a 2015 model to save a bit of money as essentially they are the same as the V6. This kite has been a pleasant surprise. Since then I have used it 6 or so times buggying in strong winds. What a great kite. Amazingly steady and controllable and the 5th line is so effective when landing. Today I was out in winds gusting to mid 30s knots and just loving it. My old 4m is 2009 and the new one is definitely an improvement in handling and feels safer.
I also have a 2014 6m Access and like that as well -very stable have even used it kitesurfing a couple of times when I didn't have a small enough kite (not that I would recommend this).

skier - 4-4-2017 at 12:31 PM

Wondering if anyone has a solution to the minor tear starting on the hole where 5th line enters kite? Both sides are wearing equally, just not sure what/if anything should be done. Looks like the 2016 has a plastic eyelet.

To answer my own question, Ozone sent out some plastic eyelets to install where the 5th line enters kite. 15 minutes and done. It's worth having a look inside the cells to see where 5th line passes through cells as some of the inside holes can wear a bit (but not as bad as where line enters kite). It's possible to beef these up with some tape or even more plastic eyelets.

Memopad - 5-4-2017 at 10:58 AM

Browsing this thread again reminds me of a question I have about hot launching foil kites. In high winds, I don't think it's possible to do anything but a hot launch, in my limited experience anyway...

I had a couple of guys helping me launch my 6m Access in 40+mph winds, and we were trying to launch at the edge of the window. The problem was, the wind was so high that it wasn't possible to orient the kite in a manner that allowed it to inflate itself at all, and as soon as everything "looked" ready to go and the kite was launched, it would immediately get blown backward in the window and be really deep in the zone before it inflated and took off, essentially a hot launch anyway.

The other issue I had a couple of times with the assisted side window launch was that the nose would collapse and fold in on the kite, so the front couple of feet would be folded in and the kite would fly around like a wet rag. Even pulling the bar all the way in wasn't enough to overcome the wind force and pop the kite into shape.

It's possible the wind speeds were just too far out of design range, but I wasn't able to do anything but hot launch my foils in those conditions.

Windstruck - 5-4-2017 at 11:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Browsing this thread again reminds me of a question I have about hot launching foil kites. In high winds, I don't think it's possible to do anything but a hot launch, in my limited experience anyway...

I had a couple of guys helping me launch my 6m Access in 40+mph winds, and we were trying to launch at the edge of the window. The problem was, the wind was so high that it wasn't possible to orient the kite in a manner that allowed it to inflate itself at all, and as soon as everything "looked" ready to go and the kite was launched, it would immediately get blown backward in the window and be really deep in the zone before it inflated and took off, essentially a hot launch anyway.

The other issue I had a couple of times with the assisted side window launch was that the nose would collapse and fold in on the kite, so the front couple of feet would be folded in and the kite would fly around like a wet rag. Even pulling the bar all the way in wasn't enough to overcome the wind force and pop the kite into shape.

It's possible the wind speeds were just too far out of design range, but I wasn't able to do anything but hot launch my foils in those conditions.

I have experienced EXACTLY the same issues trying to side launch SS DP kites in high winds. With my 6m and smaller DPs wind speeds are 20+ to 30+ on the ground and generally all hell is breaking loose. Side launch attempts inevitably lead to the kite rolling along the ground. Since I'm a SS deviant (hey, get used to it) the problem of lack of kite structure and tons of long bridle lines make this a ticket for disaster, with bow ties, tangles, and all sorts of other delights. The extra fun part of all this is that the kite usually hot launches after a few tumbling seconds and is a heated mess in the air. Now what the heck do I do? :puzzled:

I'm convinced that this whole side launch business is for huge kites in tiny winds. Certainly for SS folks like me. Thing is, I'll hot launch a large kite in small winds anyway. Maybe this side launch business makes sense for FB fliers.

What I've come to do is set up my small DPs for a hot launch by wrapping the kite around a padded pole directly downwind, pull the clam cleat trim line way in, let out the bar, gulp, and launch. Pretty undramatic in terms of power assuming I don't get the bridle lines tangled before powering it up. At least for a 6.0m P2 or P3, a 4.0m P2, and a 3.5m LS2 this has worked out just fine.

So my advice is to hot launch small DPs with the trim line in and the bar out. Prayer never hurts. :P

Demoknight - 5-4-2017 at 12:17 PM

Side launch is more of an ARC and LEI thing I always thought. I do sometimes side launch my 19m Speed3, but for the most part I hot launch that kite because it takes forever to inflate from the ground and I like to hot launch and just fly it full most of the time.

khaakon - 5-4-2017 at 01:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Since I'm a SS deviant (hey, get used to it) the problem of lack of kite structure and tons of long bridle lines make this a ticket for disaster, with bow ties, tangles, and all sorts of other delights. The extra fun part of all this is that the kite usually hot launches after a few tumbling seconds and is a heated mess in the air.

...sic, had one of those days today - more than 1 hour in total of 4-5, fixing mess in nasty winds (P2 6).

Agree on the thoughts on sidelaunch vs. hotlaunch business there too, guys.

nate76 - 6-4-2017 at 08:04 AM

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who's struggled with High Wind/Side Launch technique. And I always have to chuckle when you watch videos online on how to do it, they are doing it in like 15 mph winds - not exactly what I would call high wind.

I've had about 50/50 success with side launching; and the 50% that are unsuccessful can go really wrong - like what windstruck said about balling up then magically sorting out directly downwind where it proceeds to hot-launch in some unforeseen, uncontrollable direction. Get ready to go for a ride. Or more often than not nowadays I just throw the safety as soon as I see it start drifting downwind in a mess.

The method I've had the best luck in high winds is launching with the kite positioned at a 45 deg angle to the wind with the upwind wintip weighted somehow (snow, landboard, milk jug w/water, etc). Then when I start tension-ing the lines the downwind wingtip comes up first and it tends to sort out the lines - possibly drifting back into the power zone a little bit. But then just as windstruck described, I go full forward with the bar, keep the kite low to the ground, and drive it to the wind window. Keeping it low will avoid getting yarded, but plan on smoking downwind. If I'm in snow or grass, I'll actually sit my butt on the ground and put one leg out in front of me like a bumper and ride out the initial surge. I imagine on a salt flat that could be pretty painful - maybe you could scudd it out? The other option I do is to actually have my skis on, pointed mostly downwind so that I can ride the initial surge out. I can see where if you were on a hard surface this might not be a great option though, as you could be going warp speed before you know it.

Maybe this is just a long way of saying what others have said in the Chrono V2 thread: light wind may be expensive, but in my eyes it is the most fun! And maybe not so expensive, when compared to a broken leg/shoulder/arm etc. etc...

TEDWESLEY - 8-4-2017 at 05:53 AM

I have always hot launched. Probably because that's what I learned when I started with FB and solo flying. If I feel that a hot launch is too
dangerous I get a smaller kite out. I'd rather cruise than fight angry ripstop. Every launch is unique, have your game plan thought out in
advance including your abort. One thing not mentioned: when ready to sit in the buggy, approach from the up wind side so you don't get pulled through the buggy by a gust.

TEDWESLEY - 8-4-2017 at 05:54 AM

I have always hot launched. Probably because that's what I learned when I started with FB and solo flying. If I feel that a hot launch is too
dangerous I get a smaller kite out. I'd rather cruise than fight angry ripstop. Every launch is unique, have your game plan thought out in
advance including your abort. One thing not mentioned: when ready to sit in the buggy, approach from the up wind side so you don't get pulled through the buggy by a gust.