Power Kite Forum

Peter Lynn Single Skin unboxing and observations

rtz - 29-4-2015 at 02:54 PM

Had to order one to see how it flys. The red/black kite on this page says 3m and RTF for $65. The red/black kite on the linked page says 2.5m and a variable price(flexible/negotiable?).

Jessica Liang stated $65 RTF and $35 to ship it. The box is 2"x7"x13" and uniquely wrapped. Be very cautious opening the box with something sharp.



Now I've had a few kites at this point. The material of this kite is of the thinnest and lightest material I have ever touched. Paper thin. One could mistake the material for "tissue paper" used in fancy girl gifts:




Not a criticism; just an observation and comparison to typical materials used in kites of the types I have had.

The bag is of the type and style Pansh uses:



Rough cut PVC handles. They weigh nothing in the hand. I consider them to be "freebie" handles. Super soft foam like that used on some workout/fitness equipment:




I noticed it seemed to have long bridles. Took out the tape measure. 9' long.

So what size is this crazy kite? A little smaller then a 3m Octane used for reference.



The 3m octane weighs in at 1lb 3.2oz(550 grams) and the Skin weighs 7oz(200 grams).

I was quite taken by the clever method used to attach the bridles to the kite. 4 pics of 2 bridles front/back:



Now the true test will be to see how well it buggies. Power for size, upwind, speed, stability in gusts, and general flying manners. I'll get it out in the sun and get some wind to inflate it to see what it looks like up close. Can't wait to see how it fairs in the buggy.



Has anyone buggied with one of these yet? How are they?

bobalooie57 - 29-4-2015 at 03:16 PM

I got the 4M, back when they first came out. I've flown it a couple of times with the buggy, but the times that I did, flying on 15M lines, I had the kite fall back a bit and fold up, then pop back open with enough force to scare me. Could have been just the fact that I wasn't used to the kite, but I haven't had the chance to use it again. It pulled like a truck, though! (with a bit more lift than you get with the NPW)

bobalooie57 - 29-4-2015 at 03:24 PM

The cloth in mine seemed to be about standard, though. Construction looked about the same as yours, with the 'sewn in' bridles.

ssayre - 29-4-2015 at 03:32 PM

How long did it take to get? I need you to test it right away. :)

soliver - 29-4-2015 at 03:44 PM

This is the "Skin" not the Uniq, correct?

Randy - 29-4-2015 at 03:45 PM

Mine is on its way. I checked the tracking this am, and it had arrived in NY. I too wondered about the size of the kite given the difference between the numbers listed on Peter Lynn Himself .com and the kite factory. I was not aware it came with handles or what the bridle lengths are. I ordered mine about March 23, and it didn't ship till last Tuesday or Wednesday. Jessica quoted 25 days for delivery after the order was placed but it has taken a week or so longer (depending on how long it takes to get here from the NY sorting center). They don't have a bunch of these on the shelf - each order is made after it comes in, and in my case there were kites to be made ahead of me. i will see how it compares to my growing collection of NPW kites.

RTZ - thanks for mentioning to be careful opening the box.

3shot - 29-4-2015 at 03:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
This is the "Skin" not the Uniq, correct?


Pertty sure the unique is not available yet. Sometime in June?

Randy - 29-4-2015 at 05:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
How long did it take to get? I need you to test it right away. :)


Sean with a little luck maybe I can bring mine to Indy over Memorial Day weekend and you can test if yourself.

ssayre - 29-4-2015 at 05:37 PM

That would be awesome randy

rtz - 29-4-2015 at 06:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
How long did it take to get?


I paid for it on the 6th. Then they had to make it. It shipped out on the 22nd and got here today.

Randy - 29-4-2015 at 06:41 PM

Wow- you did a lot better than me - I paid on the 23rd of March, and still don't have it. Jessica said there were delays due to the kite festival.

Cheeks - 29-4-2015 at 07:44 PM

The PL skin looks good. Can't wait for the flight results.
Price is right. do they come RTF with PVC handles?

BTW bigE123 builds these as well. Might get faster delivery.

bigE123 - 29-4-2015 at 10:20 PM

Quote:
BTW bigE123 builds these as well. Might get faster delivery

Thanks for the plug Cheeks but I don't build the "Skin" my other non-NPW builds are more like the Uniq/Peak.

povlhp - 30-4-2015 at 06:54 AM

This is the skin. Price is now $100 + shipping according to Jessica today, so I did not order, Now price too close to the PL Uniq Quad when I have to add $20 in customs fee, 25% european VAT etc.

And I can order the Uniq Quad 3.5 today for €209 and it will be delivered in 1-5 days (seems to be in stock in Europe). The Uniq is really RTF and with real handles + bag.

John Holgate - 30-4-2015 at 02:50 PM

Chook and (I think) IMK both have the Skin and from what I can gather, it's a budget kite not in the same league as the Uniq. ChooS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s review of it is here: http://www.extremekites.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=59&...

Randy - 30-4-2015 at 03:45 PM

Got mine today. From what I can tell, I'm inclined to accept the 3m number. Here is a picture on top of my 3.5 m Hydra. its actually a little taller and the wingspan doesn't seem to be that much less. Hoping to fly it tomorrow. The fabric is quite thin, so it should not take much wind to fly. Agree with RTZ on the packing - they must have spent a long time on that - probably more than the handles. Line that came with it looks ok. Construction is probably better than Randy, so I guess i won't be able to get a job in their factory quite yet.

s1.jpg - 189kB

bigE123 - 1-5-2015 at 01:20 AM

Quote:
Has anyone buggied with one of these yet? How are they?

As boobalooie57 said I had an early prototype and it was a bit flighty, would reverse or fold, for that reason I put a Z-bridle on which helped a lot but for traction with the bug it didn't quite feel stable enough. It's probably why the bridles are so long, an NPW would have @6ft of bridle.

IMK - 1-5-2015 at 03:12 AM

I had an early version and I thought it was ok at first. However after a number of flights in various conditions I found it too unpredictable. It had a nasty habit of suddenly flying backwards during gusts/lulls. When flying backwards it still has some decent pull. I gave up on it as a buggy engine - just never felt comfortable. I was flying mine on both handles with a z bridle and on an Ozone Turbo bar.

Hopefully they've refined the design and you have a better experience than me.

Iain

Bladerunner - 1-5-2015 at 04:26 AM

My old profoils came with similar handles. You couldn't even add a strop to them stock. I considered them and insult to the otherwise good kite.

bigE123 - 1-5-2015 at 04:39 AM

Now this may be very cynical and if I've got it wrong then I apologise in advance, IMHO I think this kite didn't perform as PL expected, so to re-coup costs spent has put it out to sell under license at a very cheap price, the quality probably reflects that, it just doesn't seem like it has the RTF package to justify being a true traction kite, it's more a fun / dip your toe in the water kite to see if you like power kiting. RTZ said the bridle connection is "clever", again IMHO it's just the easiest and cheapest way to do it, there's no reinforcement, light material, line sewn on ..... only time will tell. Rant over :D

Randy - 1-5-2015 at 05:09 AM

The bridles are also interesting in that the power and brake lines seem to be connected by line a couple of feet long - its not a z bridle but a way of keeping the lines closer. Haven't seen that before.

If it flies ok at my local park that should say something since the spot is difficult with turbulance and the like. My NPW's fly well there, while a lot of times the foils can't cope with the gusts and swirls. If its not too windy I should be able to fly it today.

Randy - 1-5-2015 at 03:25 PM

Today I flew it for the first time - wind was weak and sketchy most of the time, but here is a teaser - consider it a preview of coming attractions:D. Overall, my impression is positive - but stay tuned.


1oldkid - 1-5-2015 at 04:16 PM

Looks like it might have some pull to it, given decent wind...

B-Roc - 1-5-2015 at 06:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Randy  
Today I flew it for the first time - wind was weak and sketchy most of the time, but here is a teaser - consider it a preview of coming attractions:D. Overall, my impression is positive - but stay tuned.



I like the way it sounds just like an airplane ;)

Or maybe that's just a lawnmower in the background :rolleyes:

Randy - 8-5-2015 at 06:26 PM

I'm back from JIBE where i got another chance to fly the Skin a few times. Unfortunately, I don't have any video from my session pulling my landboard on the beach. I also flew it a little static on the beach, one morning in very light wind.

My reactions are generally quite positive as far as its flight characteristics and performance. This is a kite for pulling things - nothing more or less. It acts a bit like my NASA's, but its a fairly slow and deliberate flyer. On the beach I flew it right after flying my 2.5 M NPW 5-P (20 foot lines), and it showed considerably more power and its seemed better getting upwind. It is mainly just a matter of 'park and go' - no sine waves needed to pull you where you want to go. I ran it for a while, but in truth it had more pull than I wanted or needed, and went back to my 2.5 M. I did have a bit of trouble landing it on the beach, as it was pretty powered up and didn't want to come down. (I had the same problem with my NASA's, so probably that's on me.) It seems to want to fly with a finger above the power line, rather than below. Is it a foil or is it a NASA - seems a bit of both.

I had a bit of trouble with it because moving lines and handles around between my various kites at JIBE I lost track of where the flying lines should connect on the Skin. This may seem trivial, but its not - the brake and power lines are connected on this kite, and there are a number of places that might be the right spot. (Of course, only one combination is right.) I spent the dawn on Thursday trying to figure that out - no instruction manual - not even in Mandarin. For a while, it was RubiS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s kite. Eventually, I did solve it and flew it off the handles in really light wind. Seems to me it will work pretty well in 'street kite' mode.

I flew it static at my home park with some rather weak and shifty winds, w.o any problems. It seemed very slow and deliberate, but once it was in solid enough wind (and not much) it was ready to pull hard.

I'm impressed with the design. I got to see some of the other single skin type kites at jibe. What stands out is the simplicity of the design - very few ribs. It sort of seems to me like it was inspired by a NASA with the eye to making it need fewer bridles. I'm impressed by simplicity, so that's probably just my personal taste. While the design seems simple, the construction seems rather complex. This doesn't seem like a kite (such as a typical NASA) an amateur could build. Lots of shaped seams, complicated shapes in the panels.

As noted by Ian and others, the construction is more what you would expect from a prototype, or light duty kite. I wouldn't hesitate to pull my landboard with on a smooth surface, but would it last long pulling a heavy load? I don't know. For me that doesn't matter - I'm using it for light duty. Hopefully, it won't let me down.

I'm sure flyers with more experience than me could give a better review, but there aren't that many of these kites around, so I'll put this out as a starting point. Here's of video of my first time at my local park. Sorry - no footage from JIBE.


bigE123 - 9-5-2015 at 03:56 AM

Hi Randy, good to see you had a real good time at Jibe!
One thing you mentioned was landing an NPW when fully powered-up, I've also had that and one way I've found to get over this is to add an extra brake line bridle, if there are no middle wing bridles add one to the centre seam at the TE or if there are mid wing bridles swing the TE bridle on to the brakes, I fly mine slightly slack but when you need to back stall, it gives extra for bringing it down and keeping it down ;-)

Randy - 9-5-2015 at 04:15 AM

Thanks Ian, I will have to try that. I decided the only thing harder to do at the beach than at home is landing the kite. The reason is that at home we have a constant cycle of gusts and lulls. You can always wait a little for a lull, and the kite will come down and stay down. Doesn't work that way at the beach (which is a why we go there.) Jan Claes said the 5-P is really bad about not wanting to land, but its not the only NPW with that issue. So I would bring the kite down, tie the brakes to the pin and then it was a made dash to dump sand all over it. (Should have brought my sandbags with me.)


John Holgate - 9-5-2015 at 03:57 PM

What about the side landing that I do with the NS2's ? That may work with an NPW wing.....

Randy - 9-5-2015 at 05:01 PM

That works really well with my NS2. I've done that sometimes with my other NPW kites too. I tried to land by the side with the Skin, but it ended up in some tall grass with reeds and I was worried I'd puncture the fabric as it was bouncing around. Fortunately, no damage and another kiter tackled it for me. :D Problem with the 5-P was more the crowded beach area where we were all parking our stuff complicated landings. Short lines pretty much solved that too.

rtz - 30-5-2015 at 09:42 PM

I buggied with this crazy kite some more today. My impressions so far is it is a grunt truck. All power, no speed. I was in some sorry, sub par, atrocious, dithery wind. I'm sure the wind never gusted near 20mph. More like 10-15mph today.

Top speed I got out of the Skin was 17 mph. Felt overpowered. Can this kite do 20mph? What's it's top speed?

It is still prone to flying backwards with power. Very strange when it does so. Hard to get it out or to stop once it decides to go.

The 9' long bridles are one thing; but having tied/knotted bridle connections instead of sewn bridles makes it a real mess to sort every time I get the kite out.


If there is anyone here who is an advanced buggier and gets strong enough wind to make use of this size; I can send you this kite so you can test it out and experience it. See if you can get more than 20 mph buggy speed out of it. Feel it out first before you take off with it because like I said; when it starts going backwards; it keeps going backwards. Very hard to make it stop or change direction.

This is the strangest kite I've ever flown.

I haven't had a successful session with it so far; but it seems to have very good upwind, and does have more power size for size. Doesn't seem lifty or lift prone at all. Lots of power; but I haven't seen any hints of speed from it yet.

When I was on my way to 17mph with it; it just seemed to keep getting more and more powerful and the feeling of being overpowered with it. The whole time I'm thinking "how am I going to go fast with this kite?". I don't know if it has any speed in it.

rtz - 30-5-2015 at 10:05 PM

A picture showing that short line hooking the power/brake lines together.



I think that line is how this kite is able to be flown off the front lines only. That line tensions the brake lines from it to the kite so in that way; it is like a NASA kite in regards to flying it with brake pressure.

From the ground that line looks 6" long. Then when the brakes are applied; it then looks like it is 12" long.

I've flown the kite in zero wind just walking backwards. In light wind; the kite sits in the sky rock stable.

I think that connecting line is what makes this kite what it is and without it; I think it would have to be flown with the brakes applied.

Randy - 31-5-2015 at 03:16 PM

Seems to me it would be the perfect compliment for this buggy, since you would need power more than speed.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=30505

PistolPete - 7-2-2020 at 05:07 PM

From this article, I assume Mr. Peter Lynn has abandoned his controllable single skin power/trainer/stunt kites for single liners :rolleyes:

https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboarding/the-quest-to-set-up-a-new-single-line-kite-genre


Quote:


Kiteboarding - February 5, 2020
The quest to set up a new single line kite genre


The founder of Peter Lynn Kites is on a mission to establish a new single line, single skin kite genre. Here's what he has been doing to make it a reality.

After seven years, approaching 200 prototypes and quite a few thousand hours of stuffing around, what do I know for sure, what am I unsure about, and what can't I understand at all?

I'm Sure That...

1. Single skins kites have a disadvantage for theme kite flying, the mainstay of kite events. Why? They have much more pull than ram air inflated kites of the same size.

An advantage is that they are twice as large as ram air kites for their weight.

Another advantage is that they are uniquely suited for the fitting of de-power lines - light secondary lines that collapse the kite when pulled in to facilitate taking down and as a safety release in case of emergency.

A 6-meter x 60-meter Serpent flying at 150 meters altitude and pulling more than 400 kilogram-meters can now be collapsed in seconds with less than five kilogram-meters pull on the secondary line.


2. The "diving over" - tendency to randomly dive off unrecoverably to one side or the other in strong winds - that plagues Boomers and 1Skins is caused by wind-induced indentations of their leading edges.

After more than 100 prototypes, extensive testing, and elimination of other causes, I'm sure about this.

Indentation occurs because their leading edge is supported by ribs rather than directly by bridles.

When the leading edge gets pushed in by a wind gust, it remains distorted until there is enough pressure behind the leading edge to push it out again, which often doesn't happen in time to prevent a crash.

Dams, reducing the leading-edge depth, fitting stiffeners, and very careful tuning are mitigations.


3. Bridle-supported, curved leading edges like those used for the single skin Octopus, Serpent, and Keel-less pilots can resist leading-edge distortion to any wind speed yet experienced.

With automatic let-out of their leading edges in response to increasing wind speed (using total kite pull as a proxy) and aeolian rear bridles (that pull in the kite's trailing edge in strong winds), they can achieve a wind range without manual adjustment of 10 km/h to more than 100 km/h (subject to the kite's inherent stability of course).

With manual adjustment, this range can be extended down to 7 km/h, but with significant loss of top end.


4. The annoying way that Serpent style single line kites "fall off" to one side or the other in very light winds (below 10 km/h) is a function of how their tails are attached to their heads and nothing else.

They fly straight until the wind drops, then go off to one side, draping themselves across every other kite on the field.

All sizes do this.

Octopus variants do as well, though to a lesser extent.

Large framed-head Serpent kites behave this way too, as do other kite styles with tails that are large or long in comparison to their head size and attached in ways that prevent the heads from rotating independently.

To check, I tried a two-meter wide Serpent head with ties to attach various tail types.

Sure enough, this head with a Serpent tail attached full width falls off when the wind drops, as it does, to a lesser extent, with Octopus tentacles.

With the Serpent tail attached only in the center, it stays straight.

The problem is, therefore, one of graphics, not function. Jim Martin suggests a frying pan and fried egg head with the handle as the tail - this would fly perfectly.
I'm Sure Enough That...

For flat skin SS kites, and when keels aren't used, all bridles except those to the leading edge should be the same length, or very nearly.

This is because single skin fabric surfaces are not able to resist compressive loads at all, and equal length bridles are the minimum requirement for their support.

Spanwise, central bridles can be longer than those further out to provide some spanwise tension in the skin, but there is rarely any necessity or advantage in this.

Chordwise compression (accordioning) can be reduced by using chordwise camber, which is more than the "arc of a circle" form that equal length bridles provide, but this makes single line kites more inclined to leading-edge collapse and stalling.

Equal lengths seem best at this stage, with perhaps some minor extra length near the trailing edge to assist light wind flying.


I'm Not Sure About...

Scale. Large-framed kites weigh more per area than small ones because their structures need to be proportionally heavier to provide enough strength and rigidity.

This is why small-framed kites fly in lighter winds, and why very large kites are all currently of the ram-air type.

No framed kites larger than about 200 square meters have ever flown successfully, and these weighed tonnes, whereas the current world's largest kites - 1,250 square meters - are ram-air and weigh less than 300 kilograms.

Ram air kites are not free of scale effects because the volume of air contained within them scales with dimension cubed, whereas area scales with the square.

Although air doesn't have weight in this context, it has mass - 1.23 kilograms/cubic meter - and this affects stability.

Mega kites now use thru cords instead of ribs like the large Dutch kite built in the 1980s had.

Thru cords allow kites such as Mega Flags and Rays to rotate without pulling all their internal air mass around with them, and this has enabled larger kites to fly satisfactorily.

I expected that single skin kites would be free of scale effects because they have no frames and no internal air masses, but this understanding was wrong.

Two-meter x 20-meter SS Serpents are volatile unstable (figure-eighting progressing to loops) from around 15 km/h wind speed.

Three-meter x 30-meter Serpents get to 25 km/h, but 6-meter x 60-meter Serpents have no upper wind limit that I've yet found.

Single skin Octopus kites show a similar trend.

The cause of this can only be the mass of air, especially vortices, that the kite drags around with it.

Attached flow, like internal air masses for ram air kites, scales with the cube of dimension, while for a single skin kite, area, weight, and all aerodynamic forces scale with the square of dimension.

I am very surprised that this effect is significant, but evidence from very many tests doesn't easily admit to any other explanation.

I'm Annoyed About...

The tentacles on single skin Octopus kite tangle to an impossible extent unless they are linked together laterally at intervals with cords.

These links also provide the extra drag that smaller versions require for stability.

A six-meter head Octopus would probably be stable without cross-links and hold the tentacles flat, which also improves visuals.

Unfortunately, links are a menace (snagging on everything) to other kites, trees, fences, people, and especially children.

This makes single skin Octopuses unsuitable for most public flying, which is very bloody annoying, seeing as they fly so well and look great.


I Don't Understand at All...

To my considerable surprise, I've found that single skin Serpent style heads, in at least the two-meter to six-meter range will fly without any tail at all, though they are more reliable with a light ribbon tail attached to the trailing edge center.

Even more surprisingly, the same head with a Serpent style tail or unlinked Octopus tentacles is volatile unstable in smaller sizes.

If there's one lesson every kite flier learns early on, it's that adding more tail reduces volatile instability.

That tails can cause volatile instability is outside any previous experience I can remember.

It seems to be something to do with how the tail is attached. Full-width attachment causes instability; single point attachment doesn't.

Except that this doesn't answer why linked Octopus tentacles are stable while unlinked ones aren't.

Perhaps it's to do with how vortices leave the kite's trailing edge, which would be affected by not connecting the tail across the full width or some feedback effect between aerodynamic and weight forces.

I don't know.

To date, I've mainly only developed single skin single line kites with semi-circular leading edges and straight trailing edges.

These fly well as Pilots, Serpents, Octopuses, and other themes that fit this shape.

Working on variants (by size, bridling, and tails) of this shape has been a good way to get a better understanding of the many confusing variables involved.

To get more development time, I'm also limiting overseas kite event attendance in favor of flying at a large open area close to where I live that I can drive onto with all my gear and kites whenever the wind is what I need it to be.

I'm sure my fellow kite fliers will sorely miss being taken out while I'm learning to tame these things, but for progress, a price must be paid!

I'm on a mission.

Words by Peter Lynn
Founder of Peter Lynn Kites


Ed Cline - 8-2-2020 at 04:15 AM

Oh Peter, I'd have an easier time believing you if your SL octopuses flew without a pilot.