Power Kite Forum - My Water Kite (NPW)

My Water Kite (NPW)

Randy - 4-6-2015 at 12:38 PM

Here is the latest installment of my efforts to make use of my kites on the water. This time I'm flying a NPW 9b off the handles on a SUP type board. The kite is only 2 meters but pulls pretty good. Today was pretty windy for a while, but dropped off. Hard to paddle upwind, but I'm getting better at it. Going downwind is, of course, quite easy. When the wind blows from the west I can go to the nearby river, and get a free ride upwind (thanks to the current) and then use the kite to go downwind. I can actually sail a bit to one side, and think I'm getting better at that. Flying a NPW off the handles solves a whole lot of problems esp. launch and recovery. This was the first NPW I've made with cascade bridles - which I think helped a lot in terms of reducing tangling problems. I tried a few times before with conventional lines and was very hard to keep them untangled.

1oldkid - 4-6-2015 at 04:33 PM

That is really great Randy!

Looks like it was pulling you right along...I thought I saw a wake!!:P

good stuff, makes me think I could try this on water here...

RedSky - 4-6-2015 at 05:39 PM

When no-one was looking you pulled the kite out of your jacket. :D The theme tune to OO7 should have been playing.

Randy - 6-6-2015 at 04:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 1oldkid

That is really great Randy!

Looks like it was pulling you right along...I thought I saw a wake!!:P

good stuff, makes me think I could try this on water here...

Thanks - not sure if that was a wake or a wave I was sailing over the top of.

As for trying it yourself - go for it. If you do you, check to see if you can hold your kite a little above the ground when flying off the bridles. If not you may want to consider building a smaller one. I limited the size on mine so that I would not have problems launching it from a standing position (though I did launch when I was on my knees so that may not be critical). I used the light (cheap) plastic tarp material because it is almost impossible to keep the kite dry (and I'm cheap, as everyone around here has probably figured out by now). Ripstop will soak up water quickly, though if there is a enough wind it will dry out in a few minutes, but you will be drifting downwind when that happens. I may be able to get away with a bigger kite, so I'll probably start working on one ~3.0. BTW - I used the 9b plans because the bridle length is shortest of any NPW per sq. meter of kite size (and all of its other good flying qualities.)

PHREERIDER - 6-6-2015 at 07:54 AM

good stuff Randy, innovation supreme! i always go low buck on protos, it becomes obvious what deserves more.

nice aircraft carrier you're riding ! chattahoochee ?

Randy - 6-6-2015 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

good stuff Randy, innovation supreme! i always go low buck on protos, it becomes obvious what deserves more.

nice aircraft carrier you're riding ! chattahoochee ?

Thanks. I think I'll call this "Kite Barging." That was on Lake Lanier - wind was due east. If we could ever get a decent westerly I am really anxious to try it on the Hooch. Its 5 minutes from my house and the current flows opposite the wind so you get an easy paddle upwind and can kite back downwind. Done it a few times already with smaller kites.

Randy - 7-6-2015 at 10:11 AM

Tried again today wind was less than the last 2 times out at the lake. Used quads today and it works much better - had a lot of trouble with backstalls before, but the quads cured that, despite much weaker winds. @1oldkid - if you try it don't even both with dual - go right to quad.

Windstruck - 7-6-2015 at 10:31 AM

Randy, I will be getting a NASA Star 3 2.5 M in a couple of weeks. Do you think this would be possible if flown off quad handles right off its bridle lines? I'm aware of the waterlogging issue with the material, but other than that? Just curious, as my wife wants to get into SUP with me this summer and this might be a cool way to combine two of the loves in my life. Thanks, Steve.

lunchbox - 7-6-2015 at 03:15 PM

Very cool. I was thinking about trying this out myself a few months ago but wasn't sure how it would play out.

I SUP to a break about 3/4 mile to surf. Usually when I'm done, a west wind blows which would take me back to where I came. Most of my SUP's are between 30-31" inches in width so it will be interesting. Got a NPW 3m (I think) so I might have to give it a try.

Thanks for showing us that it can be done :D

Windstruck - 7-6-2015 at 03:25 PM

Randy - as mentioned previously I do hope to try some wind propulsion on a SUP with a NASA Star 3 2.5M run straight off of quad handles. If that doesn't work I might be interested in trying to construct a kite along the lines of yours.

In one of your earlier posts in this great thread you said:

BTW - I used the 9b plans because the bridle length is shortest of any NPW per sq. meter of kite size (and all of its other good flying qualities.)

Where might I secure plans such as these online? Thanks in advance for the guidance! Steve

1oldkid - 7-6-2015 at 03:33 PM

Thanks for the tips Randy!
And I would choose different words, not "cheap"...
Creative, frugal, innovative are a few that come to mind when folks want to do things and also work within a budget, and they roll up their sleeves and make something useful.

Keep on doin' what you do man, your inspiring to several of us here! :thumbup:

Randy - 7-6-2015 at 04:18 PM

Swesting -As for the NS3 2.5 M it probably would work pretty well if you can keep it dry. I would fly it off the handles for sure. It really shouldn't hurt it to get wet, and it probably wouldn't take long to dry it out enough to fly after it got wet. It can be a problem if part of it gets wet because that can mess up how it flies for a while.

I used some small foils and got them completely waterlogged and they dried out pretty quick on a windy day (~15 mph), though a lot longer if not so windy. The main problem is just that it takes time to do it. One issue is to check and see if you can launch it standing still and hold it a little above the ground since you really would need to launch it from the deck of the SUP. You could launch from land then get on the SUP if you have a suitable launch and someone to help you.

Go to kiteplans.org and get Tom White's NPW9b calculator if you are thinking of building one. Its the best plans available. You might look at the Freedom 2000 web page though for help on the bridling. Cascade bridles are the way to go but Tom's plans are not that easy to understand if you have never done the whole deal where you loop hollow dacron line into itself. (This was the first cascade I've done after building about 20 NPW's of various types.)

Another option might be to see if Susan (kitemaker4) could build you one. She does excellent work and is very reasonable on prices.

Randy - 7-6-2015 at 04:30 PM

Here's a video of Steffan using his NS2 7.0 on the water. Note that he is planning, rather than trying sail in displacement mode (like I'm doing) so he is needing a lot more power, but its pretty cool - maybe eventually I can get there, but I'm working on this first.

Here's one where he is using an SUP and a NS2. I would try that except that you are pretty much doomed if the kite gets in the water unless you can reluanch which is why I'm using no lines. It will naturally take more wind, and I'm going to build a bigger kite (and he's a big guy), but I don't think I need one that big, though it may limit me to downwinders since it takes a lot more power to go across the wind. But this is a work in progress.

Windstruck - 7-6-2015 at 04:32 PM

Randy. - thanks a million! I so truly appreciate the PKF family. :thumbup:

I will pursue the sites you have suggested. I like your idea of using "creative, frugal and innovative" kite material. I have an old tarp in my garage made out of just such material. No, I wouldn't plan to use my tarp, but the second I read your postings I thought of that old friend that has been faithfully serving many needs spanning parts of 6 decades. I actually used that old friend as a sail once on Lake George in NY. We lashed together two aluminum canoes and made a catamaran of sorts, keel, rudder, mast and all. It sailed pretty well!:D

Randy - 7-6-2015 at 04:40 PM

I would use the cheap Dollar Tree tarp - if weighs about 4.5 ounces for a 4 by 6 piece (2.1 sq. m) That is about the same as the cheap ripstop I can get locally. It is less than 5 mill, I think. Heavier tarps (even 5 mill) weight more. You might also look into Tyvek - used in homebuilding. My "frugal" tarp has held up really well - never really had the material fail and it is actually a ripstop type of material. You can hot cut it and spot weld it just like ripstop nylon. I find it easier to sew than regular ripstop nylon. (When I started this I didn't know how to sew at all and made my first NPW kite with duct tape and tarp. Since then I've learned how to sew and have made kites from both kinds of materials.)

Randy - 8-6-2015 at 05:07 PM

Today we did get a westerly so I hit the river. Was pretty sketchy for the first 1.5 hour then did pick up. Didn't really get the best footage due to batteries going down in the GoPro, but this gives a little bit of an idea. The upwind/downstream downwind/upstream thing works pretty well, as I'd hoped though winds at the river are always highly variable - including deep lulls where I just have to park the kite on the deck.

1oldkid - 8-6-2015 at 06:53 PM

Kitebarging the Kitahoochee! :D

RedSky - 8-6-2015 at 06:59 PM

Randy, brother, please buy the monohull.

PHREERIDER - 8-6-2015 at 07:21 PM

yeah man, that joker is lake/hooch ready!

Windstruck - 8-6-2015 at 07:57 PM

Nice new video Randy! Looks like fun out there. Good tune to boot. BTW, Susan and I have done some U2U back and forth. Let's see what develops! Thanks for the inspiration. :P

Randy - 9-6-2015 at 04:44 AM

@swesting - btw - I'm only 5'5" - so if you are taller you could probably get away with bigger kite. I'm going to try something around 2.75-3, which may be the limit on how big I can go for launching from the deck.

@Redsky - it took me ages to get down from about 10 windsurf boards to 6. Don't have any room for a monohull.

Windstruck - 9-6-2015 at 04:52 AM

Randy - I'm 6 ft. tall and around 200-210 lbs. What size NPW made of the material we've been discussing would you recommend for SUP propulsion?

Randy - 9-6-2015 at 08:32 AM

I wouldn't go too big to start. Getting a bigger kite won't necessarily help lower the wind limit much because as it pulls you downwind, you lose apparent wind and it will sink. A bigger kite will pull you a little faster, but that just works against the apparent wind that much more.

Now, once you have enough wind - a bigger kite will pull you somewhat faster. Realize once you are going hull speed (~5 mph for a SUP) it gets a lot harder to go faster - can be done, but it will take more wind and the water will get choppy and staying on the thing will get harder (but it will be pretty fun to find out how that works). I am pretty sure that I can go faster with a kite than I can paddle an SUP, so I'm happy with that, but would always like to go faster too.

By the numbers - I know a 2.0 works for me. At your size (15 cm taller) you could go to 2.5 pretty easily. I think a 2.5 will work for me - so probably you could go to 3.0 I hope a 3.0 might work for me, but I don't know if it will, so.......

To start - 2.5-3.0 but I wouldn't get greedy. You can always get a bigger kite. You also mentioned something about your wife wanting to SUP. Should she be interested in trying the kite, her size would come into play also.

Windstruck - 9-6-2015 at 08:53 AM

Randy - all good points.... thanks!

I've got a NASA Star 3 in the 2.5 M size on route out of Germany. As this would be somewhat similar in shape and dimensions as we are discussing I'm thinking I will be able to get a judgement feel from that kite on land, even if the bridles are longer (they certainly look longer than yours) and the fabric of course will be different.

Happy sailing! :singing:

Randy - 13-6-2015 at 03:37 PM

Made it out today to the lake. Not a lot of wind ~reported to be 10, though I think it was usually less, but I found some puffs to give me a few good rides. Lots of boat traffic though and hot weather. But a nice day to continue my science projects. BTW - may not be obvious from this, but I am getting a handle on steering. I think I can go at least 20 degrees off the wind in either direction. Not great but its a start. Had to steer away from some rocks sticking out from shore.

soliver - 13-6-2015 at 04:11 PM

Hey Randy, it seems like you've been getting some decent breezes over by Lanier, is there anywhere suitable for buggying over there?

Yesterday was kind of a bust... One good long gust got me moving then the rain came. Good call for you to stay home.

Randy - 13-6-2015 at 04:40 PM

Spencer - Saw your post about yesterday. Hopefully your kite will dry out quickly.

I don't know of any good fields over by Lanier. (There are some large ones in the area, but none are really flat enough from what I can see and most are surrounded by trees.) There is the small parking lot I use for my landboard, but the parks too full for that now. I'll keep my eyes open though. I've been looking for a while, but so far nothing good.

I actually went to the Azalea park on the river yesterday (which is real close to my house) and it looked promising so I went out. After paddling upwind for half a mile the wind pretty much quit. Finally a few puffs came up and I made it back to the launch and quit. Started to rain and I heard thunder on the way home. Yesterday was just not our day. Today was better but only for about an hour or two this morning at the lake.

I don't know what the wind is like south of town, but its my recollection that there is pretty large grass field used for parking at Atlanta Motor Speedway, and I think the lot is fairly flat and level. Might be worth checking into. (There's a huge parking lot too, but I don't think that's what you are looking for.)

BTW - if you spot any places for longboarding let me know. I've tried that a few times now and that takes very little wind and not much space. I've got a spare longboard if you can find a place. Perfect for one your NS3's off the handle/bar.

Randy - 13-6-2015 at 04:52 PM

Spencer - just remembered - on the east side of GA 400 at exit 13 is a new shopping center. Just south of that is rather large, fairly flat field. It really huge. I drove by it last week and it has a pretty tall grass (like 2ft+) however they do mow it on occasion, since I've seen it in much better shape. It might be worth checking into and finding out who owns it, etc. I think you can see it on a Sat. photo.

soliver - 14-6-2015 at 04:52 AM

Thanks Randy... After the rain passed I spread it out and wiped it down with a towel... after a little bit it was dry. I was at the fairgrounds rather than Swift Cantrell.... It was good to get out in the buggy and I'm getting used to the Nasa's but it being summer probably means I'll just have to wait till fall :no:

I was wondering if there was better wind by the lake, like maybe the lake itself had some effect on the quality of wind. It may do something to it, but its of no consequence if there's no where to buggy nearby. I'm pretty satisfied with the riding spots I've found, just not so much with the wind... thought there might be something better by the lake.

Randy - 14-6-2015 at 06:26 AM

You have a much longer fetch (distance to obstructions) depending on where you are on the lake, but even the rather sketchy spots are probably better than most places on land. So wind quality is better. Another nice thing about water - you can see where the wind is and when a gust is coming by looking at the water.

Randy - 25-6-2015 at 01:10 PM

Not the most exciting video ever - low wind and very small kite, but I'm putting it up to show how I installed a rudder on my Stand Up Kiting board. Going dead downwind is the slowest point of sail and you can't do it for long until you have to head back upwind, so having a rudder is key to making this a much more useful way to go. (Didn't use the water kite because the NPW 21 flies in less wind and as hot as it was in and the wind being light, it wasn't getting very wet.) Tried it a few days later at the lake in a lot more wind - the rudder worked better than the sailor......(Probably should have added a bloopers section.)

Windstruck - 25-6-2015 at 02:39 PM

Nice stuff Randy! Loved the music. Go sailor go.

1oldkid - 25-6-2015 at 02:56 PM

I would bet that with better cooperation from the wind you would make some very decent tack & jibe...do you think just a couple more meters line length might help?

Randy I would really like to see how you set up that rudder idea, would you email me some pics sometime?

Oh, and I also would bet that bloopers would be ok here too! :P

Randy - 25-6-2015 at 03:20 PM

1oldkid, I'll send some pictures. Longer lines would be great, but if the kite goes down getting it back is not that easy. Flying off the handle makes it easier to land it on the board.

I do have a two line winder, but that's more for sitting down, and it not that easy to let out the line while you are sitting, the board is moving and the wind is not that steady. Ultimately, I think that's the way to go, but I've just finished a 2.8 M NPW 9b water kite which should provide a lot more power if I didn't make the lines too long to launch and land from the deck. Its a trade off - flying off the handles is much easier, but less power to work with. This is all pretty much a work in progress.

ssayre - 25-6-2015 at 03:41 PM

That's cool randy. Regarding using lines versus no lines, I was reading a kayak thread on XK and thought of you. They mentioned using an LEI kite on 5 meter lines. That way if it crashed, it would be easily retrieved. I'll bet you could even make an LEI

Randy - 25-6-2015 at 04:23 PM

Maybe. Just need some plans, but not sure about making the bladder....A local guy has a 6 meter LEI he wants to sell, but he may want too much money. We'll see what happens. I really like the idea of being able to launch it from the water since that provides a lot more possible launches than the few places you can actually do it from the lake (which are often crowded and difficult launch. A good friend of mine got thrown onto the rocks from a place on the lake and took him 3 weeks to recover.)

skimtwashington - 25-6-2015 at 06:24 PM

Hmmmmnnnnn :rolleyes:

.

How about making a leading edge sleeve where you could slide those foam tubes(pipe insul. or kind they see for playing in pool)....?

May be enough to help re-launch from water drop..?

Easily replaceable,and similar weight of the plastic bladder.

I dropped my NPW in the water using it to pull two of us in a Sunfish sail boat(without sail). It got water logged right away

..so I had to reel it in like a fish...but I was flying right off bridal(no fly lines) so I only had to pull 6-8 feet of bridal line 'til I got kite up onto boat deck and was able to throw it up again, but with a lot of difficulty. If it had a greatly hydrophobic Nylon coating maybe it would have sat on the water instead of be 'absorbed' and wet-weighted....But I also thought about those tube things at the time ..

Windstruck - 25-6-2015 at 07:13 PM

Randy, I'll see skimtwashington's excellent suggestion and raise him $50. I like where his head is with the leading edge being floatable but I see two potential issues with his design. First, those tubes people float on a HEAVY. Second, the aren't overly flexible, and I fear you won't achieve the concavity you are seeking for proper flight.

Here is what I'm thinking. For kite material utilize a thin waterproof tarp material (I think you wrote about that before). Here's the twist. Sew BUBBLEWRAP into the leading edge (I'm thinking the one inch half-a-ping-pong-ball variety). I would think it would stay flexible if you cut it into several long one-bubble-wide strips as compared to rolling it up. Light, strong, boyant and inexpensive! :bisou:

Randy - 25-6-2015 at 07:25 PM

I did something like that and it worked as shown in the video below. I used pipe insulation foam in along the back of the keel and in the nose of a NPW9b. It works about 3/4 of the time (6 of first 8 tries I think), but there are some issues. Of course, things never work quite the same when you are on a moving board or boat and there is wind and chop, etc. The biggest problem, I think is that when the kite hits the water, you will still be drifting toward it, while its not moving as much, so you lose line tension and maybe can't relaunch. If you could paddle away from it, might work. I may go back to that, but now I'm pretty much working on the stand up set up. BTW - you can stop a NPW from sinking by just putting a balloon, or foam pipe insulation under the the T-ties in the nose. My water kites typically don't sink, since the plastic floats, but you can pull the kite under the water if you pull too hard. Main reason I've gone to the stand up is that it takes the water launch and relaunch out of the equation, and I think will work on SUP type boards or similar, which is a popular sport until the wind blows. This might change that, and I've got the gear to work with.

BTW - thought of bubble wrap too, and might try it, but don't think I need it with the water kite.

soliver - 25-6-2015 at 07:48 PM

KITE THE HOOCH!!!! Awesome Randy... I'm guessing thats Azalea park right?

Love the rudder innovation too!!!!

And the vid you just reposted of the water relaunch... was that the shore of Lanier or Allatoona? I can see what you told me about with the Corps. of Engineers dropping the water level down in winter... looks like a good buggy spot possibly!

Randy - 25-6-2015 at 08:00 PM

Yes - Azalea and the water relaunch was Allatoona. Here's a very segment of a potential future blooper vid, but does show the kite floats. Lake Lanier last weekend, more wind and boat chop than necessary, but enough to show things don't always go according to plan. Did get a good turn out of it to return to shore. At this point, I'm pretty sure adding longer lines would not make anything easier, but, I think for sit down in a kayak, it would be a lot easier to keep balanced. So much boat chop on the lake this time of year that its pretty tricky. But I've managed a number of times so far as shown in my earlier vid on the first page,which was before the rudder. Engaging the rudder involves stepping back a bit which was my undoing at the time, I think.

Randy - 5-7-2015 at 09:10 AM

More experiments - mainly in light wind since its that time of year. Tried a very simple design called the Moco - which is one of the easiest possible quads to build. Looks like it would be fun for stunt flying, but tried it out on the water. Fewer bridles - less tangling, so its very light. Basically - its a sqaure of material with some bridles. Like to see what it would do with actual wind.....

Windstruck - 5-7-2015 at 09:41 AM

Nice little kite Randy! Your music for this video was cracking me up. I felt cast back in the '70 TV-land scene!

Randy - 16-7-2015 at 05:18 PM

I may be out of wind for a while, so this will summarize what I've learned so far in trying to marry kites and Stand Up Paddle type boards.

1.) SUP boards are not fast, at least for anything other than surfing in waves. Inland, flat water SUP boards are not fast as say a kitedurfing board or buggy. As far as speed goes, the board is probably more important than the kite. The kite I'm using now is almost a parachute. Much simpler than the NPW's I started with, but seems to work about as well. One key is that light weight is probably the most important factor in the kinds of winds I usually get with deep lulls. Its much more convenient if you can keep the kite in the air. Also - fewer lines - fewer tangles which is important when needing to launch and relaunch the kite from the water when the wind drops.

2.) The board I'm using is not even a proper SUP, but rather a windsurf trainer. Its is too wide (100 cm) and too short (280 cm) to go very fast, but it has a center fin which makes it possible to sail across the wind, with a rudder. W/O a rudder (and probably a centerfin or centerboard as well) you can get some control over direction by placing the kite to the edges and pushing down a rail but sailing across wind is not possible. The width of my board does make it easy to do this and keep fairly dry. Without a much bigger kite it is not going to exceed hull speed (4-6 mph for an SUP) and get planning. I may rent or borrow a conventional SUP and try it the next time a windy day comes along and see how it goes.

3.) A bigger kite is the obvious answer to going faster except that if the lines are too long, launching (and relaunching which is far more important) from the board is very difficult if not impossible. I maxed out at 2.5 M. I build a 2.8 M NPW9b, but I'm afraid it may a bit too big for me, since I'm not very tall. (However, it will be plenty useful for landboarding.)

4.) Longer lines would enable getting much more power out of the kite, but the same problem exists as having a kite that is too big. I would have to launch from shore and then as soon as the wind drops - end up with a very wet kite. I've used a 2 line winder, but that's not as easy to work as one might hope. It is probably the ultimate solution, however and one I will probably continue to work on.

5.) Despite all that, I think on a proper SUP board, one could go as fast (or faster) with a kite as paddling in reasonably steady winds of ~10 mph or better. If so, this works out pretty well since it seems to be at about that windspeed SUP becomes a lot more difficult.

6.) For inland waters (at least the ones I'm using) the "street kite" mode is a good way to have a very accessible kite/SUP setup that can be used from about any launch. Since the local area lacks reasonable kitesurfing launches (suitable for a beginner) this offers a reasonable alternative, though its more of a mellow way to spend the afternoon when the wind is up and down a lot, than get a big rush from windsurfing or kitesurfing.

Randy - 4-11-2015 at 01:58 PM

A radial new design. I think it may have promise. I'm hoping this will lead to a sponsorship deal as well with a certain fast food company as well.

skimtwashington - 4-11-2015 at 04:08 PM

Pretty cool...

Try the Elmer's Glue folks..?