Power Kite Forum - What kite to get next for freeride use on land/snow

What kite to get next for freeride use on land/snow

khaakon - 7-7-2015 at 02:17 PM

I think I want a smaller twinskin foil to complement the 12m Matrixx2. Should I just get a 7m Matrixx2? What about the Montana 8, my guess is they have tighter steering (more C form), I could be wrong. Are Montana/Matrixx very different for land/snow combined use? But I am wondering mostly about a comparison with the Ozone Summit, or other kites along those lines. The Summit (1500+euros for the 8m std) is more expensive here than the Matrixx series, which unfortunately is not available in small sizes at the retailer, but hopefully they could be persuaded to get me a 7m for less than 1350 which I paid for 12m. That would also give me a bigger range from the 12m, than the Summit 8m ??

I guess i'm looking for an alternative experience from my Peaks, which I will keep 'cause i like them and they will always be useful. The HQ retailer also has one left of a sweet ATB board, MBS Comp 95 for a smidgen less than 500 euros... OTOH, should I save up for the more expensive stuff like Speeds, Chronos and Sonics or the russian parasomething?

I’ve been kiting for a little over 1 year, and now I’d like to get moar kite(s) for moar fun. I started with a demo used FS Peak 1 6m, then a new Peak 2 9m before I recently got a Powerkites Matrixx 2 12m. I must start with saying that I do like the Flysurfer Peak series, relatively good performance and very good wind range, lightweight though a little hard to pack (Peak1). Cheap, very good value. My experience for comparisons is extremely slim as I’ve only tried very few other kites (my pal’s Ozone Access/Summit + sum LEI abroad), got some impressions from reading lots on the interwebs before purchase. So also with the HQ Powerkites Matrixx2, based mostly on one review from Chris Krug at Hardwaterkiting but I put much trust in this source.

As a beginner, I’ve been flying static a lot, but the fun starts in the winter on skis, had ten+, maybe fifteen sessions last winter, loved it! Frozen lakes and mountains and plains and here we go. Because of a disappointingly early spring, I purchased a basic ATB, MBS Colt 90, a few months back. It’s a bit scary and me wobbling around with no control and no protective gear, and oh no I shouldn’t be writing this here – you guys will kill me if kiting doesn’t…

I think I’m influenced by severe problems with the tiptucking of the Peak2 which been bothering me no end. I’ve been trimming it after reading Chris’ tip from HWkiting and any forumposts and links I could find about the Peak @kiteforum & powerkiteforum (any tip about other good internet kiteforums very welcome). Just recently I got it to something closer to acceptable though, and I am still getting a better understanding of the whole thingamajig as I fly more, and do adjustments. Closer to the original setting now, and only working on the length of the loops for pulleys at the kite and the steering lines at the bar– did some of the other stuff from www tips, but put it back unsure if it was right.

I also tried it with 12 meter line extensions - very nice, softened up the experience quite a bit, less shaking/trembling in the bar in gusty conditions, and more time to do stuff flying around the bigger window. A little slower response of course, needs more anticipation/feeling but not too difficult. Need lots more distance to fellow riders and innocent bystanders/walkers too, I noticed :-S. Took them off again, but I have both 6 and 12m extensions to play around with laterz (39m line på en 9 kvadrat..?!! e du helt på vidda??!)

Nevertheless I do reallyreally like the Peak2 9 meter even if it does lapse now and then, and it certainly has its little quirks - I am getting to know kiting better and enjoy flying although I’m still solidly on a learning curve. Amazing wind range and depower on both the Peaks I think, but they’re sometimes a bit hectic and a handful to control. I’ve noticed I do a lot of over the bar steering, not yet an expert on steering with the bar at full range I think, as in holding it totally flat along the front lines for maximum left or right. I have no problem with pulling on the neoprene floats and even above, but all the reaching out makes for lots of work while flying. I do not always fly so hectic though, but local conditions are much too often gusty and makes it challenging for us.

The Matrixx2 12m is new to me and has only been out a couple of times, but I must say that for me it really is a lot of work with lots of pulling the lines above the bar to make it turn with some speed. Still, I don’t actually have a big problem with this and I do need to get better at flying techniques in general. The reason I didn’t get another Peak2 to extend my quiver was the aforementioned tiptucking, and a newborn fascination for closed cell foilkites. The Matrixx2 12 meter seemed a good deal for 1350 euros; with lightweight fabric, nice bar and all, and I’m very happy to fly with the more consistent shape of the canopy compared to the single skin Peaks. But this one flips and curls and makes nice tangles too ;-).

It takes two [skilled] to do the tango, but it only takes one [amateur] to do the tangles! .. 't was the damn wind, I swear!!

So this brings me to; what could be my next kite? Matrixx 7m or Summit 8m ? Or Montana/ other contenders? I don't think I want to do big jumps for while yet, probably more of a freeride type. (does that make me a freeloader, likes to free ride??)

ssayre - 7-7-2015 at 02:22 PM

i don't know what kite to advise but I never where protective gear even on asphalt. :P

I do use my helmet as a camera tripod once n awhile

khaakon - 7-7-2015 at 02:47 PM

U probably use the helmet because duct taping an actual tripod to your head would be only a little worse :spin:

... oh, U meant for 1st person footage, right? :smug:

Feyd - 7-7-2015 at 02:58 PM

Great first post Khaakon.

I'm glad to hear you got yourself a 12m Matrixx2 based on our review. It really is a fantastic kite and a great value. It sounds like you are willing to completely immerse yourself in kiting and are willing to experiment. That's great. For smaller size and given your newfound interest in closed cell foils a 9 or 7m Matrixx 2 would be a great choice. Again, for the high value but also because it really is a absolute joy to fly. The tendency to twist or invert it will fade as you get more experience flying them and learn how to avoid it. :P

As far as protective wear goes I don't do anything with less than a helmet, knee pads and gloves. The amount f protection you need is proportional to how hard you want to push your skills and the level of risk that comes with it. Myself and many of the people I ride with have been saved by protective gear more than once. My wife would be dead today if not for her helmet and an impact vest she was wearing in a crash just over a year ago. I don't take protection lightly and wearing it got me where I am today.

Anyway, you can't go wrong with another Matrixx2. I really like the 9m but there's a lot of overlap between the 9 and 12m. If you have a 6m Peak you have the 9m Matrixx wind range covered. I'm thinking the 7m would be a good addition to your quiver.

:thumbup:

Windstruck - 7-7-2015 at 03:00 PM

Khaakon - welcome to the Monkey House. You didn't put your first post to waste, I'll give you that! :cool:

I lived in Sweden for a total of six years and can still speak Swedish pretty well and can certainly read Norwegian even if as a Swedish-faithful I wouldn't dream of speaking it. :P

You cracked me up with your little quip:

Quote:

(39m line på en 9 kvadrat..?!! er du helt på vidda??!)

For those reading this thread who are perhaps not as familiar with Scandinavian languages as me this would roughly translate to "39m lines on a 9M squared kite..?!! Am I totally out of my mind??!" If you are paying particularly close attention you wil actually see that I helped you out a bit changing "e" to "er" so I guess I'm not too Swedish afterall. :lol:

As for next choice in kites I'm afraid I'm as lost as Sean here (ssayre). He and I both have Peaks and like them, but also get hampered by the dreaded "tip tuck". I continue to fiddle with my 12 P2 having most recently moved the lines up one knot under the foam floaters. I'll continue to try and make it work because I really like that kite!

I haven't tried it yet on snow (I will this summer), but the PL Lynx series was specifically designed for snow kiting, so maybe give that some thought. I own the PL Lynx in both 6 and 9 M sizes and they are very nice.

I see you've been paying attention to Chris over at Hardwater. That's good thinking on your part. Chris is extremely knowledgeable about all things kiting and I personally have learned a great deal from him (not to mention doing business with him with kites and after-market goods).

Good luck choosing your next toy - there are a lot of nice kites out there!!

ssayre - 7-7-2015 at 03:03 PM

If your interested in free ride and not jumping the nasa stars would work well. They lack on speed comparatively, but they are good in gust lull conditions unless your wind is averaging 7 knots then jumping to 20 knots. They will work within 8-10 knot variance.

Here is a video of a guy using one on short lines but you can use any length of line. I'm pretty sure they are the fastest turning kite on the planet. Very affordable as well. They have a relatively small wind range and lack in upwind performance comparitively so you would need a few sizes.

I have no knowledge other than the peak on the other kites your looking at

khaakon - 7-7-2015 at 03:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

The meaning would rather be; Are you out of your mind?

The double meaning would be; E du helt på vidda = Are you totally out on the plains. Plains, as in Hardangervidda; Winter eldorado with lots of space for kites with long lines. But thanks for the attention, and for your skills in language. Edit; sry, skipping the 'r' in 'er' is a lappish accent thing, another layer in the joke :-)))

Windstruck - 7-7-2015 at 03:47 PM

Doh! I stand corrected. :D

Of course du = you. Totally cool that you are from Oslo! My parents used to live in Oslo too and it is a WONDERFUL city. I spent a summer in the early 1980s working on a farm south of you in Moss. Also, I once saw the Northern Lights night (is there any other kind?) cross country skiing near Narvik that was easily the most beautiful thing I ever saw (other than my bride of course). I'm sure you picked up on my humor about the whole Sweden/Norway rivalry.

Welcome to PKF!

ssayre - 7-7-2015 at 03:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

As far as protective wear goes I don't do anything with less than a helmet, knee pads and gloves. The amount f protection you need is proportional to how hard you want to push your skills and the level of risk that comes with it. Myself and many of the people I ride with have been saved by protective gear more than once. My wife would be dead today if not for her helmet and an impact vest she was wearing in a crash just over a year ago. I don't take protection lightly and wearing it got me where I am today.

Just to clarify, I was making light of not wearing gear and shouldn't have. I don't push my limits so I feel relatively safe. Maybe falsely. Anyway, proper gear is obviously important especially when pushing speeds and personal limits. I apologize for being a knucklehead.

khaakon - 7-7-2015 at 04:01 PM

Thanks for the welcome, Windstruck Steve, guys. I moved to Oslo from the north 25 years ago. I grew up in Tromsø and had some time there as adult too, i'm 48 now. Maybe sometime... latest at pension... I move back for the longer seasons now that I'm bitten with kiting on snow - but we'll see, I moved here kinda as a climate refugee, dunno if I'll agree more with winter now. Those alpine skis i bought before christmas last year, were my first ever, and my first pair of skis for more than two decades...

But it mayhaps look as old mr Winter climate is moving slowly northwards himself now, hmm ...?

khaakon - 7-7-2015 at 04:16 PM

SSayre; I am not knowledgeable but sceptic about kites without depower, and I somehow would like to try it before I buy it.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I apologize for being a knucklehead.

Thats to Feyd, of course:duh: no need to apologize to me, I kinda like the attitude. I'm a walking disaster myself. Really. Its a wonder I havent had any accidents with kiting, but then again I have soo many years experience with accidents... Not that I recommend it.
I also respect Feyds advice, and will heed. I'll probably get some protection six-set, but sorry we really have to discuss the helmet. No we dont. I have to hit my head at least one (more) time first:bird: one more time:bird::bird: one more:bird::bird::bird: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYy8onNJb8Q

Windstruck - 7-7-2015 at 05:36 PM

What many may not appreciate about khaakon's comment about being a climate refugee is the price one pays living as far North as he has described. Winter is DARK, and I mean all the time DARK. Until you've experienced that it is hard to know how you will react long term and foolish of you if you get all puff chested about being able to deal with it. Personally, I lived six years in Stockholm, Sweden which is more or less the same Latitude as Oslo. In the heart of winter it gets sort of light (sort of like dawn or dusk) for a few hours in the middle of the day. Pretty much still pitch black at 10 AM and pitch black again by 3 PM. Tromsø is way up at the top of Norway far North of the Arctic Cirle and would therefore be dark the entire day for many months of the year.

For me the dark got to me much more than the winter temps and snow. Those things I actually like, but man, the dark wears out your SOUL.

Glad you moved South my new Norwegian friend!

khaakon - 7-7-2015 at 05:52 PM

Spot on, Steve! In addition to easier daylight hours, and a summer that is, well... summer, (midnight sun in the north is veeery special, though:smug: ) - there's more concerts and culture events here too, which luckily been my line of work most of the time here in Oslo. Also great is the offroad biking opportunities in the forests north and east around the city.

khaakon - 7-7-2015 at 06:03 PM

Lets just say get a Matrixx 7 sq m, and move this tread to general chit-chat, haha. No, seriously - no votes for the Ozone Summit over the HQ Matrixx2 ? Matrixx seems a good choice, particularly for price. Oh #@%$#!, just remembered I havent found a reseller who has it yet, hopefully someone closer than the US, seeing as HQ is a German company?

Feyd - 8-7-2015 at 02:56 AM

Ahhhh, I didn't know that open cells were an option.

Absolutely the Summit is an excellent option. It is an amazing kite and for open cell depower it is hard to find a more stable and nicer flying wing. And the new Re-ride system is worth its weight in gold. It puts set up and pack down time in the same range as the Peaks.

Its higher AR (aspect ratio) than the Matrixx2. Maybe slightly more stable in the gusts (maybe) but more powerful and better upwind than the Matrixx2. Depower range is very good and like the Matrixx2 even though it can generate a lot of lift, it doesn't have a tendancy to do so without your permission.

Molly (my smarter half) won the women's division and beat most of the men on our 10m demo at the Mille Lacs Snowkite Crossing last winter. She loves that 10m.

And I want to add I was not trying to safety shame anyone with my commment about protective gear. I see scary stuff out here from people that don't take it seriously. And after nearly losing Molly and after the guy got killed just down the road last winter on a Snowkite I'm a little sensitive about it I guess. Sorry about in that.

abkayak - 8-7-2015 at 05:17 AM

hiya K...welcome!! i will take the time to helmet shame you...there are no do overs...forgetting everything else, you dont want to be a burden to your family when it can be avoided...thats what drives me and or keeps me under control...i lived in Oslo 2-3 months built and opened a bagel store there...really great place loved it there...doesnt matter what you get next i know your type...you will have several more purchases this year:D

khaakon - 8-7-2015 at 05:19 AM

Dreamingly, I read about Peter Lynn Phantoms and many more PL’s, Flysurfer Speed 4 Lotus too, I want to experience all of them, and all of the rest. I’d like to fly every type of thing, and maybe understand what all that sales speak tuning to me from those Internet pages actually mean? Sean, as you can see, I am leaning the other way here - advanced is interesting to me, so is expensive, I've always been a fool for high end stuff. But I do have learned one can find very good value in mainstream too, if you're smart.

Realistically, I need to buy cheap now, or wait. So if I can find a good deal for a 7m Matrixx2 I might probably get one. If I treat it nicely, I can pass it on later. I can get it shipped from Sweden for 1325 euro, not really a good deal, but available. I haven’t contacted the Norwegian reseller yet, to check for availability for the 7m, afraid I’m gonna have a slip of the tongue and also order the all terrain board, while I should spend my money elsewhere (new bed and couch).

Thanks for telling me a bitmore on the Summit, Chris. I am sure my friend will appreciate the praise for it. I’ve flown his 2015 Summit 8m, and can definetely see why he likes it a lot. BTW, I mistakenly thought of the Summit as closed cell, being more 'closed' than the Access, my bad.

khaakon - 8-7-2015 at 05:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak

hiya K...welcome!! i will take the time to helmet shame you...there are no do overs...forgetting everything else, you dont want to be a burden to your family when it can be avoided...

Cheers for the welcome and thanks for the hard truths. I have a bike helmet and a climbing helmet. I might try kiting with the bike helmet and see how it goes. I don't use it when riding my bike, to be honest.

khaakon - 10-7-2015 at 01:37 PM

Ok, maybe I found my senses. Not that I was totally lost, but anyway. Couldn't really figure out which kite I would need next, if any. And can't really afford it for 3-4 months (see, I unfortunately need a new couch too!). So as a half-way measure I got just the board; MBS Comp95. Cost me 431 euros shipped, and I went for it as I'm not sure I'd get that price for too long. Arrived today (fast!) even before kiting with it I want to change the shock absorbers, as it came with the yellow soft ones.

And then I'm gonna check skateshops around town to find some type of protective gear which I'll like, and so will actually use, instead of somehow leaving the [cheapo stuff I'd just get 'cause of conscience] at the bottom of the bag:embarrased: For sure I'll be more at danger with this new board, after all I'm now a weekend warrior - it says so in the MBS ads! :karate: :yes:

At the moment I'm also pretty sure I have to figure out more about me and kiting before I run around and throw money at new kites. My quiver should cover me quite well for the time being, but probably I would like some alternative to the Peak1 6m in higher winds.

khaakon - 10-7-2015 at 02:43 PM

It somehow feels like I've grown up a little bit, just now. By that I mean the Comp is more something you buy for yourself, while the Colt is something you buy for your kid.

ssayre - 10-7-2015 at 03:25 PM

I might try the bike helmet and see how it goes. I don't use it when riding my bike, to be honest.[/rquote]

I never where a helmet on a bike either. I'm just leisurely riding around the neighborhood. I see a lot of people never touch their bike without a helmet even if on a casual ride around town. I don't see the difference in that and the joggers on the same streets without helmets. Personally, I think the world has gone a little helmet crazy. Again, if you are pushing limits then it's a different story. You would have got beaten up for wearing a helmet in the neighborhood I grew up in. Different times I guess.

khaakon - 10-7-2015 at 03:31 PM

I'd had some nice progress on the (old) board recently. I can see meself getting into trouble down the road, so to say ;-) Quite different from my bike riding.

ssayre - 10-7-2015 at 03:44 PM

for sure, landboarding scares me. I feel like I can't see the unevenness or holes through the grass on my spots. I've since switched to longboard kiting on asphalt. Sounds like it could be more dangerous but I feel infinitely more safe on a smooth surface.

ssayre - 10-7-2015 at 03:45 PM

I'm not jumping on asphalt though

khaakon - 10-7-2015 at 03:53 PM

Sounds great fun too. and btw - sry didn't mean in any way FB kites is not advanced or indeed interesting if one wanna commit, abit.

ssayre - 10-7-2015 at 04:00 PM

No apology needed. My nasa star kites are not advanced at all as far as dynamic power. They are about as simple as it gets. That's why I like them. The drawback is they have a much narrower wind range than a depower. Depower is great much better for the most part if dealing with challenging winds, but the nasa stars are much much more forgiving than a traditional fixed bridle foil. And they work great on short lines needed for parking lot riding.

ssayre - 10-7-2015 at 04:02 PM

By the way, your peak 6m works well on 5 meter lines on bar or handles. I've used both. It's a blast to fly on short lines if you have the wind

khaakon - 10-7-2015 at 04:13 PM

Nice handling, will have to look into that stuff. Tried to fly a kite with handles once very shortly. Borrowed from a funny old man (Victor! :thumbup:

) on the Ekeberg field with a PL kite and a homemade buggy, and no language skills but Lithuainian 'n a lil' bit Swedish. I didnt dare to try the buggy that time, though ... next time maybe?