Power Kite Forum

Help me to decide which is the best option for me

miller - 13-7-2015 at 03:22 PM

Evening all,

I'm looking to get into land-boarding.

Quick bit of background:

38 yrs old, live in the U.K, in Oxford, so inland and blustery winds. I'm a life long skateboarder, formerly sponsored and I snowboard too, wake-boarded a few times and mountain boarded a handful of times.
I'm 6ft and weigh 15st or 210 lbs, wind speed here is about 10-25mph average, I think. I have a Flexifoil Big Buzz and have pretty much mastered 2 line flying in all wind conditions and understand the window well.

So... what set up?

4 line Fixed bridle with handles?
4 line Fixed bridle with a turbo bar?
de-powerable foil on a bar and harness?

I'm thinking of a second hand purchase to keep costs down if it's depower

4 Line fixed bridles I've looked at are P.L Hornet/Twister, Ozone Flow/Octane HQ Beamer or Flexifoil Sting/Rage

No Idea about de-powers though, although I know they are costly.

Haven't given the board too much thought yet.

Any advise based on my riding experience and limited kite experience is much appreciated,

Many thanks

gemini6kl - 13-7-2015 at 03:44 PM

You need a good depower kite for landboarding . there is a 7M HQ montana going for a great price in the for sale section. check it out.

miller - 13-7-2015 at 04:00 PM

I'm in the U.K !

Devoted - 13-7-2015 at 04:22 PM

Hi mr. Miller.

I lived in the Netherlands so I figure we have about the same gusty winds. Sometimes nothing, sometimes all at once.

If you can spare the cash, I would go for depower.
A regular powerkite like the ones you described will have, compared to depower kites, a smaller wind range and you will end up with 3 or 4 of them to keep riding as often as you want without considering the wind to much.
Most likely you will end up with a 3.0 and a 4.5 and a 5.5 and 7 or 8 meter kite collection.

And even flying them on a bar, the only way you can loose power or gain power is by flying them.

When it comes to depower, you will probably end up with 2 kites. One in the13-16 meter range and one in the 8-10 meter range. My smallest was a 10 because I did not like the super fast turning of an 8.0 kite in gusty 25mph winds.

The biggest advantage of a depower kite is ofcourse the wind range, but very close to that...is the way you can power up or loose power by moving the bar up or down the line. That is besides flying the kite through the middle of your windvenster if you want to power up.

When it comes to riding, you will experiance a way more relaxter ride. You dont have to work the kite all the time. A lot of times you can just work with the bar a little bit while the kite sits higher in the air.
And when a gust hits, it isnt that bad. The bar will be pulled up a bit by the force coming from the kite meaning you actually loose a bit power and the kite soaks up the gust.

My two cents of thought.
Anyone else feel free to add here.




Devoted - 13-7-2015 at 04:31 PM

Ps..besides that...i noticed once people start boarding, and they are going to look at youtube and all, they want to try jumping too. Which is awesome to do.

In reality, jumping under a 3 meter powerkite in 25mph winds is nervewrecking. The surface of a kite that size is small. So you have to steer it really well, with hardly no float, to be able to land softly.

A 10 meter depowerkite has way more surface and provides way more float. Besides that it isnt as quick as a 3 meter kite and accidentally kiteloops can be easier avoided.

Now i think I covered it about all.


abkayak - 13-7-2015 at 05:31 PM

Everyone need s a 3m 4line on handles....or your skipping a big step..be a pilot, go from there

ssayre - 13-7-2015 at 05:44 PM

What abkayak says. 3m 4 line kite then look to depower. Take a look at a peak. Great for inland wind

volock - 13-7-2015 at 05:48 PM

My advice would be look for a cheap used four line trainer in the 2.5-4m size. It'll be a good next step, usable to introduce friends without them needing a harness or the like, and fun when you can't get out on the mountainboard or like for your skateboard or a skis/snowboard on crispy snow/frozen lake without being very overpowered, and let you use short lines for parking lots or the like.

Get it and use it to learn and start trying to ride powered, while you wait for a good deal on a depower, they'll pop up. I'd say go 7-9m depower when you find a good deal, and figure out what you're fully interested in. There's a lot of flyers in the UK, and I'm betting you can find someone close (enough) to try out depower and figure out what you may like. Gusty wind is a lot nicer on depower HOWEVER depower redirecting long is easier to get lofted/dragged. Depower safety mechanisms are more difficult (than just let go). Most of all, there's just too much variety and cost to going depowered out the gate, imo.

ssayre - 13-7-2015 at 06:24 PM

Volock, do trainer foils work on short lines? Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to try any foil on short line. I would assume they would work on 30' lines but I'm wondering about 15' or less. I'm finding 15' lines to be the sweet spot on most of my parking lots. (nasa star and peak) I'm going to give the 8.5 blade a try on 5 meter lines first then go longer from there if it doesn't work

edit: Really gotta be on your toes on this post. I just realized I used metric and English system measurements. :D

volock - 13-7-2015 at 07:19 PM

If I can get semi clean wind, my 5m/10m line sets seem to work well enough for my Beamer (3.6m), and Buster Soulflys (1.5 and 2.2). It's been hit and miss with my 5m Tensor though, more so on the 5m lines than the 10m ones. I'm guessing slow speed + short lines + super dirty wind on large kites doesn't play out well in general. I've never tried it with my Pansch Aces.

In super clean wind conditions /rollerblades on asphalt and high wind, I've thrown up my Beamer on handles to the bridle (that kite's bridle is LONG) and just cruised around on it. Short lines are definitely trickier than normal lengths for those kites, especially in dirty wind (which is all I have in NM) but it can be made to work. Cruised around a nearby skatepark and attached parking lot earlier tonight on said Beamer and 5m lines, 15-20ish gusting wind with huge lulls, and it did great, minus the skateboarder who I didn't see during a low redirect that I almost hit. Rollerblades for a bit and mountainboard. I'm still debating what longboard to invest in for parking lot/bike path cruising. (if you know much about them, mind a U2U discussion?)

hiaguy - 13-7-2015 at 07:31 PM

There's another thread:
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=28759#pid27...
It answers many of the questions that you should be, and are, asking.

abkayak is right, the first thing that needs to be accomplished is becoming a pilot. There re so many variables when dealing with the wind, that you will require the automatic reflex actions that can only be developed by hours of practice. Because of those variables, this isn't a sport that you pick up and master in a weekend - every time out is different.

It took you time to master being on a board, and it sounds like you were rewarded for that commitment; this is not much different.

Buy a 3m 4-line fixed bridle. Learn to fly it with your eyes closed. Then look at the options that are available. Your enjoyment factor will be far higher, and your ability to avoid unpleasant situations (possibly resulting in injury) will be greatly increased.

Feyd - 14-7-2015 at 04:30 AM

I agree with everyone that one should grab and learn to fly a smaller kite or starters. But Im not sure i can get on board with "everyone needs a 3m on handles". Maybe when there weren't other options but now, not so much.

I'm curious as to what people see a kite on handles as the advantage? You can learn piloting just as well on a small depower as you can on a fixed bridle. It may lack the nimbleness of a kite on handles but it doesn't lack the handling that you need to learn the basics of flight and its less confusion when the pilot transitions to larger wings.

Not to say there isn't benefit to learning on a handled fixed bridle, flying any kite will build window awareness and muscle memory. And sure it forces you to manage the kites power with positioning in the window. But we teach our students that position is the window with a depower is your primary power management option also. Sheeting and trim are backups. For teaching basic flight without a harness we simply trim the kite and fly unhooked. I dont see the need for a fixed bridle these days. There are too many good options for depower trainers out there. And they are much more vesitile than a fixed bridle in the long run and likely to used more even after the pilot has become a proficient pilot.

miller - 14-7-2015 at 05:04 AM

I've already got a firm grasp of the wind window on a two line Big Buzz, flying in all conditions up to about 30mph winds, enough to scud me and almost lift me a couple of times and can fly it without looking,I thought this might help towards skipping a fixed bridal and getting an access or similar, although I'm currently the highest bidder on a hornet 4m so may end up with that!

skimtwashington - 14-7-2015 at 05:19 AM

There's opposing points but all valid...








abkayak - 14-7-2015 at 05:30 AM

fb....stick shift
dp...auto tranny
no question dp works best on a landboard, personally i think you need time on a 3m/4 its in your best interest
for the 200$?? used its the logical next step
IMO

acampbell - 14-7-2015 at 07:35 AM

If you end up with the Hornet, it will fly well in a plain control bar (remember, not the same as a de-power bar) or even the newer PL cross-over bar (kind of almost sort of like a de-power bar).

In any event, the Hornet will serve you well until you can snatch up a deal on a true de-power kite.

volock - 14-7-2015 at 11:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  

I'm curious as to what people see a kite on handles as the advantage? You can learn piloting just as well on a small depower as you can on a fixed bridle.


I'll explain my view, as I don't think yours is wrong. Mostly I see handles an advantage over bad solely on the FB thing. In my experience, the biggest downside to depower is a higher cost for initial gear to get into the sport, and loses it's resale value faster. Depending on your wind/location, limited use in the small depower gear once you've used it to learn (not very applicable where I am). That's the only real advantage to FB I see. I fly both, and am looking to get some more depower foils currently, one of which for my wife, who just barely flies one of my FB kites, and has issues with the smaller ones because "they move too fast", and wants a harness and depower to learn on... If only I weren't too slow everytime I've seen a Peak for sale since (thinking a 6m Peak will be an awesome high wind kite for me/learning kite for her).

The advantages to FB as I see it mainly come down to cost/resale value if you dislike the sport. Slightly tougher (in my experience) for crashing a lot, and the slightly "easier" safety of kite killers/being able to let go. I know experienced pilots who fly FB mostly because they hate being attached to the kite.

And sorry for the threadjack.

Bladerunner - 14-7-2015 at 04:28 PM

I suggest 3m foils because you can fly them in such a wide range of wind. That said, I put people on depower as soon as possible if stand up riding is the goal.

You can force a 3m foil to fly in very little wind and hold on into some pretty strong wind. It's all about gaining hours of fly time at 1st.

Handles allows the new pilot to see how front line / back line input effects the kite and helps them get there head around what trimming a depower is actually doing.

hiaguy - 14-7-2015 at 07:38 PM

"You can learn piloting just as well on a small depower as you can on a fixed bridle."
Feyd, I certainly respect your position and experience, but if I may:
While there may be some that are able to extrapolate sensations, I find that there is a tactile feedback through handles that are completely lacking through a harnessed kite. Feeling the difference in line pull as a foil approaches - and hovers at - the edge of the window; discovering the value of sensitive brake input; and, certainly not least for a beginner, learning when you've crossed that line and have to let go - rather than trying to get to a quick release.
I'm not saying that one can't learn to fly by using a depowerable kite, but I do believe that there are nuances that are only available with a fixed bridle on handles.
Or, to paraphrase abkayak, there's a lot of learning that's missed out on when you start out on automatic.
Just my .02

Then again, as the originator of this thread already has flight time in, this may be all for naught.

Windstruck - 15-7-2015 at 02:31 AM

This is turning out to be an interesting thread. The DP versus FB debate is likely without resolution. I know those posing different points of view aren't digging in claiming absolute domination for one over the other. Part of the beauty here is that the differences lie in the subtleties.

I don't have a fraction of the experience (personal or that of being an actual instructor) as that of others posting before me. What I can say as a relative newcomer to the mobile side of kiting (several years of static flying but only about 2 months of buggy riding) is that both styles have their absolute merits.

Here's the thing: flying FB on handles is MORE INTERESTING to me from the aspect of sheer piloting, while my limited experience with DP (to date exclusively with a large Peak2) has the piloting aspect being much more MUNDANE. Hiaguy's points directly above are very well stated and don't need repeating. He nicely captured the beauty of the art of piloting. Missing that step and jumping right to DP, despite all of its abundant wonderful flying and propulsion attributes will rob an emerging beginner pilot of really getting the feel for the roots of the sport.

I've now taken about a 10 day hiatus from flying due to a business commitment (hey, I have to pay for my addiction). The kites I'm looking forward to getting in my hands upon return are my FBs on handles, more so than my kites (DP and NPW) that I fly off of a harnessed bar.

Kiting is sort of like pizza. Is there ever really a bad slice? Fly on Comrads! :Ange09:

Feyd - 15-7-2015 at 08:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
"While there may be some that are able to extrapolate sensations, I find that there is a tactile feedback through handles that are completely lacking through a harnessed kite. Feeling the difference in line pull as a foil approaches - and hovers at - the edge of the window; discovering the value of sensitive brake input; and, certainly not least for a beginner, learning when you've crossed that line and have to let go - rather than trying to get to a quick release.
I'm not saying that one can't learn to fly by using a depowerable kite, but I do believe that there are nuances that are only available with a fixed bridle on handles.
Or, to paraphrase abkayak, there's a lot of learning that's missed out on when you start out on automatic.
Just my .02

Then again, as the originator of this thread already has flight time in, this may be all for naught.


Hiaguy, well said and it makes me smile. What you have just described is not the sole domain of fixed bridles. Depowers have every bit the same sensation just in a different way. We are constantly telling our students that although we can impart all the technical information to fly a kite well it is still very much a visceral experience and you have to develop a "feel" for what the kite is doing, recognize the feedback and respond accordingly. Just like any controllable kite I would argue. I love these discussions and the shared perspectives. This is the stuff that makes this forum so fun.

I also smile at the fact that the FB fliers refer to depows as the "Automatic transmissions" of kiting whereas we always viewed them as "standard transmission". The "gears" being kite placement, trim and sheeting in or out to change AoA to lower or raise power. While a FB is more akin to stepping on the gas and using the brakes and placement to manage the power. Which is also an art in itself.

It's true, the bottom line is that you have to weigh your options by your needs and budget. We certainly all agree that flying ANY kite is better than NO KITE. And I totally understand the affinity many here have for FB and especially the feel it offers. It's a freakin' fabulous feeling. And when nobody is looking I sometimes sneak out on the occasional FB that we keep hidden in the basement. :smilegrin: But I'd never take one on the ice at this point.

I'm not trying to be a bad guy here. I'm not anti-FB. But I think that in the future you will see less and less FB being flown. Kitesurf abandoned FB ages ago. Some snowkiters may still use them from time to time (esp beginners) but I don't know any dedicated serious snowkiters that fly FB anymore. And it seems a lot of KGB'rs are going depow over the last few years. Unless they live coastally. Things are changing and evolving. Especially as kites like the Peak become more available.

It seems to me the buggy community is the last serious hold out on the FB front. Which may be enough to keep manufacturers interested in producing them for a long time still. But for my needs and the needs of our clients/customers FB are almost not even a consideration.

As the original poster already has some handling experience my feeling is that he is better served investing in a depower and getting the biggest bang for his buck. Even if the buck is a little more. But again, any kite is better than no kite.

ssayre - 15-7-2015 at 08:42 AM

The main thing I hear from reading through the posts is to become a pilot first and starting in manageable conditions regardless if fb or depower. If you have experienced pilots close by then starting on depower probably makes sense but if learning alone as I have then there is something to be said for a simple fb to learn ground handling, set up pack up line management etc. it's just much simpler to learn on your own and your preparing yourself for more advanced kites without even knowing it.

abkayak - 15-7-2015 at 10:02 AM

OK...in thinking about my analogy i will change it to dp=Indy Car/ fb Formula E
the important thing here is we now know Chris will throw a fb in the air:thumbup::thumbup:
@ 210# w/ 10-25 winds pbly want a 9m dp??...going from a 2line will be quite intimidating
OP...i hope you win the 4m bid...and i too am not saying my opinion is right, it's just mine

miller - 15-7-2015 at 12:43 PM

I'm thinking I'm going to go down the buggy route now, being a skateboarder initially drew me towards land-boarding and has now put me off it. It's been my hobby and life for more than 25 years and I'm what you would call a core skater I suppose, a bit like a bmxer not mountain biking I suppose, so it's a 4 line fixed bridal in 4m I guess, hq Beamer VI looks tasty to me, and i'd rather hit speeds in a buggy than float around on a board if I'm kiting, perhaps a new thread in the buggy bit? thanks for everyone's input and advise so far

robinsonpr - 15-7-2015 at 12:56 PM

Geezer, the 6m Flysurfer Peak (depower) is awesome in a buggy!!!

skimtwashington - 15-7-2015 at 02:49 PM


Quote:

..but I don't know any dedicated serious snowkiters that fly FB anymore.


Well.. with around 45 days on snow and ice(and still working a job), I guess you might say I'm dedicated..and serious?

I been trying to get myself and some from the Nahant crew to come up to visit and play.

So maybe in the future-if I do- you WILL know at least one 'dedicated, serious' FB snow kiter.:wee:

:bigok:

Demoknight - 15-7-2015 at 02:51 PM

Miller, buggy is the way to go. Once you learn to fly a kite blind, the buggy is going to be the fastest thing you learn with wheels on it.

volock - 15-7-2015 at 05:21 PM

I fly snowkite on FB. They work well when snowkite is more like ice with no snow on it, and wanting something lower powered. I'd need a 5m (or smaller) depower, as I can throw up a 1.5m and haul faster than I want by a good amount on ice in the 20ish winds that seem to be my normal.

hiaguy - 15-7-2015 at 06:03 PM

Hey miller, here's a crazy thought...
take a look at the Essex Kite Park. They have, space, lessons, stuff to use, and people that love the various aspects of the sport.
For a two-hour drive, it would be an invaluable day.

abkayak - 15-7-2015 at 06:04 PM

No No No.....skaters got to skate
I don't want to hear talk like that Miller, don't deny what you are
Sure get a bug...but theirs an itch your gonna have to scratch

miller - 16-7-2015 at 10:58 AM

I will skate, but not on grass or sand !!!

miller - 16-7-2015 at 11:18 AM

Realised I some contacts in kite retail and picked up an HQ Beamer VI 4m for brand new for £160, getting delivered tomorrow, can't wait