Power Kite Forum - Large, high wind kites?

Large, high wind kites?

rofer - 24-11-2015 at 07:43 PM

I've always got the impression that high-wind kites are usually just smaller versions of kites made for more moderate wind. Lately I've been wondering if there are any large, less-efficient kites also made for high winds. If the winds are high I imagine turning speed wouldn't be a problem and having the fabric above you could make for more glide and easier landings.

Do such kites exist? If not, does anyone know why?

Windstruck - 24-11-2015 at 07:50 PM

I think this is a good question. I suspect one answer lies in the fact that a kite such as you describe would cost every bit as much to build as a kite of comparable size and construction complexity designed for lighter winds. Maybe the thinking is why spend more than you have to? Also, I'm not sure you physics assumptions would hold in all cases (lots of cushy smooth lift for soft landings but not a lot of wind block for grunt). Such a kite, should it even be possible could I suspect be unwittingly made into a more efficient kite by pilot error or other circumstances suddenly making it grossly overpowered and therefore dangerous.

Not trying to squash you idea, but I've got several reservations.

shehatesmyhobbies - 24-11-2015 at 08:24 PM

Based on sq ft material, I don't think you could dummy down a large kite enough to be a high wind kite.

There was just a video I watched last week of a paraglide for putting up a sail in a little bit more wind than he should have been, it nearly cost him his life. a little bit different, but yet the same.

BeamerBob - 25-11-2015 at 06:52 AM

I think what you described is exactly what the Peter Lynn Arc is. With the Phantom II I was able to take a 12m right up next to 60 mph in the buggy. That took 28mph winds......with a 12m.

PHREERIDER - 25-11-2015 at 07:07 AM

rofer, my experience has shown me , smaller in high wind are choice and suitable for comfort and safety , and of course the application.

a small tube 5-6m will go as hi as most would want to be out in.

BUT PL arcs have been the most stable hi wind kites with the greatest range of ALL kinds and designs. 13m-16m-19m Venom, SYN, Charger below a gale ! really didnt matter which one you had up! this on the water and with considerable experience being a larger guy i have weight on my side as well. most land experiences are just down right frightening in super hi wind conditions >35 can have microburst and gust up to 60! so being in those situations can be lethal. i can think of 4 microburst situations i have been in over 8 years. ..it adds to the things to consider EVERYTIME you go out.
caution and lethal warning advised.

Windstruck - 25-11-2015 at 07:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

Most land experiences are just down right frightening in super hi wind conditions >35 can have microburst and gust up to 60! so being in those situations can be lethal.

I second that emotion. When I was down on Lake Ivanpah earlier this month we were in the midst of packing up and loading up when the front of an oncoming storm reached us. Winds had been a fun 30mph-ish for a while. A lot for me to handle, but doable. In the space of around 10 seconds the winds increased to around 45 (I'm guessing) with multiple bursts that almost knocked me over (and I was bracing for them and I'm 6ft tall 200+ lbs). Real short punches like Bruce Lee used to throw for demonstration. Had I had a kite up during those bursts it could have gotten nasty very quickly.

Those winds certainly caught my attention and taught me an important lesson about the simple stark realities of being hung out when a front's leading edge crosses your path.

We all LOVE wind or we wouldn't do what we do and spend time reading and writing about it. I for one want to make this a decades long immersion.

RedSky - 25-11-2015 at 09:28 AM

Not sure if you'd consider using an LEI but I highly recommend the Genetrix Hydra. Checkout the wind ranges from their website - http://www.genetrixkiteboarding.com/produits/hydrav6/?lang=f...

Based on my own experiences with the 7 & 9m these ranges are spot on.

Back in the spring I had the 9m in my local park with winds gusting from 16mph to 45mph, sometimes the wind would drop out completely then power up in an instant. Check my video - http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=30219#pid28...

The critical thing about LEI's is that they keep their shape which makes them cope with gusts and lulls so much better. The Hydra is superb in these extreme conditions. Unusually the bridling also attaches the the struts so when a powerful gust hits the canopy the bridle pulls the everything tight as a drum, the kite stiffens rock solid. Its a shame nobody ever seems to take the Genetrix challenge. I think its the best kept secret the kiting world.

rofer - 25-11-2015 at 12:13 PM

RedSky: I'm not necessarily sure I want a kite like I asked about, but those hydras do look really nice. You wouldn't happen to have one for sale, would you?

nate76 - 25-11-2015 at 12:44 PM

I'll second what most people are saying here - I don't know if I'd want to have any big kite out in high winds. For one - at least for inland kiters - the winds tend to be gustier in those conditions. For two: if you end up dropping the kite into the powerzone - intentionally or unintentionally - its going to act like a big spinnaker and at the very least pull you at whatever speed the wind is at the moment. But typically much faster than that. That can get ugly very quickly.

With that said, I'm a believer that big-kite flying can actually be the safest kiting - as long as you fly them in low winds. Big kites tend to have big floaty jumps that send you up and put you down much gentler than smaller kites; they also move a little slower to allow more reaction time. And if the wind is only blowing 10mph, and you loop unintentionally through the powerzone, your base speed is 10mph, not 30. Not nearly as terrifying. Calmer winds also tend to be less ratty and more smooth. All this makes light wind riding more enjoyable to me personally. The only downside for me is the price.

PistolPete - 25-11-2015 at 01:02 PM

Agree, high winds = get a smaller kite = get a LEI.

Last month when I got to the beach the wind had picked up and 7m kites were coming in off the water and one 5m kiter was staying out. I have an older 4m Switchblade that I took out and was able to use for the first time, with a 150mako, being 200#+ with wet gear on… Side-onshore going out was fun riding across the waves. Wind that strong usually has high gusts, and with the small very quick turning kite it felt like I was working a 2line stunt kite in high winds. When held steady it flew very far forward into the window helping go upwind. Tacking back was over the large wind swell waves and the small kite did not have enough power to always keep me on a plane and drag me up and over the swell.

The small LEIs are advertised for high winds but construction is usually of normal build type so lighter riders use them in less than high winds too. It is not really clear sometimes if they are designing/scaling smaller kites for normal weight & high winds or lighter weight riders. Maybe on purpose so they can capture both markets?

What I found working the small kite very hard with fast turns to climb the swells was I could overpower and stall out the small kite and sometimes enough to deform the leading edge enough to fold it over on the side/tip. When I let off the bar, the leading edge would snap back into shape. This is not only bad for the kite (bladder pinch – Oh No!) and performance, it could be very dangerous if the kite tip snagged a bridle, line, or a lull/gust added to the chaos and inverted the kite.

Being low/underpowered with such a small kite helps keep things manageable. As soon as you swing the kite and/or it grabs a big gust you realize quickly there is plenty of power on tap and the trick will be controlling it.

Although it seemed counter intuitive at the time to use a bigger board with a very small kite, I think this would have balanced thing out enough to allow me to climb the swells better. I’ll plan to start off using the 165mako next time and drop down a board size if super powered. The trick is having a big twin tip that is fun in the waves & chop, and not for light wind conditions (low rocker). A small directional board would probably take as much grunt as the 150mako did.

Even better would be a kite specifically made for very high winds and normal to heavy riders. Hope to get an Ocean Rodeo Storm kite. Reviews are positive and it is overbuild with a big leading edge (the small Switchblade leading edge is strut size) so it won’t fold over. Also the Storm is build to fly slower which would also be an improvement, reducing kite/gust management attention. Being a heavier kite it is not designed for light riders in normal winds, but that is a trade-off/marketplace I don’t need.

When the spindrift is on so is the big fun, but be extra careful and safe in these conditions!

rofer - 25-11-2015 at 01:17 PM

I certainly didn't mean this to sound like I plan on taking out a 12m kite in something like 30-40kts. I know small LEIs are traditionally high wind kites, I was just curious if anyone knew of any larger kites made for higher winds.

I think the closest thing to what I'm looking for are probably the PL arcs mentioned. I imagine a 10m arc is usually larger than the other kites around in the same wind.

RedSky - 25-11-2015 at 01:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

RedSky: I'm not necessarily sure I want a kite like I asked about, but those hydras do look really nice. You wouldn't happen to have one for sale, would you?

Sorry I don't. I'm hoping to get one myself in the new year after losing my 9m, until then I'm out of the game. My wish list includes the 8m, 9m and 14m

rofer - 25-11-2015 at 01:27 PM

I see only they're currently on sale. I try and avoid buying new, but the prices are pretty good. It's a shame the 7m is sold out though, but a 9m might still be a good choice for me.

RedSky - 25-11-2015 at 02:09 PM

Wow, that's an amazing price for the complete package. I forgot that Genetrix has a dealership in the US. Although the kite you're looking at is the mk4 version, its still essentially the same kite as the current mk6 version. I know Sebastien Cattelan was first to break the 50Knt barrier using the same Mk4.

Yeah, that's a shame they don't have a 7m. There's no wind on Earth except perhaps 11,000ft up a mountain in Antarctica that it can't handle but I think you'd get much more use from a 9m.

What sort of wind speeds are you hoping to ride in ?

Mmmmm I wonder how much shipping is to the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHJFrm68RBM

rofer - 25-11-2015 at 02:17 PM

Right now I think my 8m Speed 4 handles most of my high wind needs, but I know I'm really bad at passing on kiting when there's any wind so I was hoping to just further broaden my wind range. Do you think the 9m Hydra 4 will have a substantially better top end than my 8m S4?

shehatesmyhobbies - 25-11-2015 at 05:31 PM

I know my 9m phanny really starts to pull me along on the beach in 20mph winds, even better at 30-35mph as long as it's smooth. I have had my 18m out in 20mph winds. I could fly it for a little bit but then it really takes a toll on me, trying to put my insides on the outside!

Bladerunner - 25-11-2015 at 06:12 PM

What you say about arcs makes sense in so much as, when folks are moving down to 5 - 3m foils my 15m arc is just coming alive.
I look out of place out there with that big thing. The strong c shape makes arcs projected size a lot smaller. The lack of bridle lets it shape shift. Getting a slightly smaller projected area as it gets loaded. Opening when not loaded.

When the wind gets too strong for my 10m arc ( or 7m Pulse ) I go to my stretched out old 2.5 profoil. If it's too strong for that ( and it rarely is ) I sit out and fly another day. But I'm an O.G. and this is all on land.

PHREERIDER - 25-11-2015 at 06:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

I certainly didn't mean this to sound like I plan on taking out a 12m kite in something like 30-40kts. I know small LEIs are traditionally high wind kites, I was just curious if anyone knew of any larger kites made for higher winds.

I think the closest thing to what I'm looking for are probably the PL arcs mentioned. I imagine a 10m arc is usually larger than the other kites around in the same wind.

no not really , 10m arc it NEEDED to be 30knts before even consideirng this kite and the newer ones even higher!, its small and fast as lightening, and at this size not really effective depower just all go! all fast! all the time!
16m in 30-40knts the bar pressure alone kept you from doing anything too stupid pretty much. 13m by far more comfortable and fun for me . for a big guy a 19m arc in 20-30knts is what you wanted! the easy riding and boosting is just endless. i remember seeing the dutch guys at NABX on 19m CH in 20kts+ and they're maybe 130#.

i have been on my 16m venom when tube guys were on 8-9m in 30knts...so yeah the arcs are the big kites in higher winds.

Devoted - 25-11-2015 at 06:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

no not really , 10m arc it NEEDED to be 30knts before even consideirng this kite and the newer ones even higher!, its small and fast as lightening, and at this size not really effective depower just all go! all fast! all the time!
16m in 30-40knts the bar pressure alone kept you from doing anything too stupid pretty much. 13m by far more comfortable and fun for me . for a big guy a 19m arc in 20-30knts is what you wanted! the easy riding and boosting is just endless. i remember seeing the dutch guys a NABX on 19m CH in 20kts+ and they're maybe 130#.

i have been on my 16m venom when tube guys were on 8-9m in 30knts...so yeah the arcs are the big kites in higher winds.

Hahaha...
@pheerider
I am Dutch. I get comments from kitesurfers about the size kite I choose for land..15 Synergy..in strong winds. I love the way a big arc acts. Slowest turn settings though to prevent accidental kiteloops...but yes..we like our kites big.
It is just a pull on the bar to go..and after kiting sitting at the bar.

rofer - 25-11-2015 at 06:36 PM

I was out in 25-30knts recently and after doing a tethered launch of my 16m Scorpion I decided against attaching it to myself. I felt the pull on the chicken loop and worried I'd end up in the next state over.

I might have just had it set wrong though. I need to get some more time with it, but I don't have nearly enough wind usually. Hoping to turn that around this year though.

PHREERIDER - 25-11-2015 at 06:36 PM

see rofer BIG ARCs in high its global! right on Devoted

RedSky - 25-11-2015 at 08:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

Right now I think my 8m Speed 4 handles most of my high wind needs, but I know I'm really bad at passing on kiting when there's any wind so I was hoping to just further broaden my wind range. Do you think the 9m Hydra 4 will have a substantially better top end than my 8m S4?

They're closely matched. 8m Speed 4 31-32knts / 9m Hydra V4 38knts. The V6 version has a 40kts top end.
Not sure if that's what you'd call substantial but considering the Hydra is a whole meter bigger... On my 16-45mph day in the park, my trim was set for 50/50. The trim range is pretty big, limited only by how long your arms are. The hydra won't flap or distort at the top end of its wind range unlike a lot of other kites.

If you're not happy with the Hydra then I'll buy it off you for what you paid minus a bit of shipping to the UK. :D

rofer - 26-11-2015 at 10:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

That's tempting, but I got a pretty good deal on an 7m Ozone edge that I'm probably going to go with. It's both cheaper and quite a bit more known. I'd love to fly a Hydra, but I'm not ready to spend that money on I kite I've never flown.

RedSky - 26-11-2015 at 02:23 PM

Its cool

Devoted - 26-11-2015 at 04:26 PM

I know a kite landboarder who used an Phantom1 18 on 18 meter lines to expand the higher windrange and stillbhave a big kite above his head.
I thouhht i saw the guy on one of the NABX movies on youtube. Seeing the red checker helmet but with a later model PL kite. I can be wrong since the guy I knew ia Dutch and I have him on one of my movies from like 8 years ago. But the helmet, riding style and hair...just looks like him. (I would like to know rhe name of this rider)

Nabx 2011 peter lynn

markite - 26-11-2015 at 07:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Devoted

I thouhht i saw the guy on one of the NABX movies on youtube. Seeing the red checker helmet but with a later model PL kite. I can be wrong since the guy I knew ia Dutch and I have him on one of my movies from like 8 years ago. But the helmet, riding style and hair...just looks like him. (I would like to know rhe name of this rider)

Nabx 2011 peter lynn

The guy in the movie and from NABX 2011 is John Penders - he is Dutch, here are a shot I did up of him - he was on a Charger 1 that year. And another shot of him and Ozzy

Windstruck - 26-11-2015 at 07:44 PM

Very cool pics. That looks like Lake Ivanpah!

Quote: Originally posted by markite

Quote: Originally posted by Devoted

The guy in the movie and from NABX 2011 is John Penders - he is Dutch, here are a shot I did up of him - he was on a Charger 1 that year. And another shot of him and Ozzy

markite - 26-11-2015 at 08:37 PM

Yes, Ivanpah during NABX 2011, exact same location now for IBX - same place you were riding around just a little while ago (and can still taste and smell that dust I bet)

Windstruck - 27-11-2015 at 05:47 AM

:wee:

Quote: Originally posted by markite

Yes, Ivanpah during NABX 2011, exact same location now for IBX - same place you were riding around just a little while ago (and can still taste and smell that dust I bet)

Devoted - 27-11-2015 at 04:20 PM

Thanks. I thought i had seen him before. Ozzy is one of the big buggy guys in the Netherlands. H140 or H160 on his buggy if i am still right.

PHREERIDER - 27-11-2015 at 05:19 PM

here a video of nabx 2011, i meet the guys, 1:57...that be them, fun time, out and back is long ride on board hopping all that bramble.

https://vimeo.com/27342758

markite - 27-11-2015 at 06:46 PM

The other Dutch rider in Chad's video is Jeroen Pigmans (standing beside John Penders)

PHREERIDER - 28-11-2015 at 08:05 AM

oh yeah, and thats Adam B. in with John Penders in Marks first image. ah good times

Devoted - 28-11-2015 at 10:06 AM

Aw guys,

You all love me here because I am Dutch. Hahaha

Thanks guys.
Its nice to see some of my old country coming by.

carltb - 28-11-2015 at 11:35 AM

my personal opinion on high wind kites is firstly you need to define the term high wind. I regularly fly powered with big kite and that is my comfort zone. then I see people on much smaller kite in the same winds. I think my point is, I will fly a big kite until I cant anymore the ill step down a size. I can take my 18m charger well into the 20's then the 15m upto 30 then the 12m ????? I used to have a 10m venom back in the days and I never found the top end of it. if I had the balls to launch I was good!!

Devoted - 28-11-2015 at 04:02 PM

I think Carl makes a valid point.
Wind comfort is different for every one.

I like to have my kite powered up an still have a bit room on de depowerline just incase.

Feyd - 28-11-2015 at 04:52 PM

"High" wind is relative. Gust factor at a given windspeed is more of a concern IMO. I can fly my 24m Phantom up to 24mph. It's a handful but it doesn't feel like its going to kill me but it was smooth wind. If it had been our usual gust factor I would have been on a 15m.

But its an Arc. Lots of wing vs. Actual projected area. There may be a lot of wing but maybe about 2/3 is actually doing the work.

I'm with Carl, I like to ride at the upper range of a given kite. Basically as long as I'm not being repeatedly lofted, there's a lot of fun to be had with that extra power.