Power Kite Forum

Looking for a Snowkite

dcel22 - 18-1-2016 at 08:50 PM

Hi everyone, I am looking for a good beginner friendly snowkite. I currently have an HQ Hydra 350 but am looking for a larger depower foil kite to use for snowkiting. Probably something in the 5.5m - 8.0m range.

I'm thinking Apex, access, lynx, montana??? Any suggestions? Have anything?

Looking for something affordable as I won't use it a ton and ideally a good used kite. Thanks! :D

Oh....also I don't know if there is anything out there but if I could somehow use this same kite in the water during the summer that would be great. Weather it be just for body dragging or even very windy days it would be cool. Not sure if this is an option.

grigorib - 18-1-2016 at 10:06 PM

There are a couple of Flysurfers in For sale section

IFlyKites - 18-1-2016 at 10:22 PM

Depending on your budget look into a Flysurfer (Speed or Psycho). There are several for sale on here. Some other possibilities would include an HQ Neo/Matrixx. All of those I listed are closed-cell so they should be perfect for your needs. If you want to look into some arcs, look at Peter Lynn Charger's.

MotoFoo86 - 18-1-2016 at 10:24 PM

Hi dcel!

Wow lots of questions. Lets address kite types first, of those you listed 3 of the 4 would be good 1st time depower kites. Montanas while fantastic kites have a lot more ability to punish you because of their lift capability. If you're not used to larger foils i'm not sure that a montana would be my primary recommendation. As for the later three, the access probably has the best safety system which can come into play anytime but especially while learning (the 2014 on that is). I personally have no experience with the lynx, but all the basics are there, lower AR and the 5th line safety.

Now here's the interesting side note, all three of those kites could be used on water as an engine. However since all 3 are open cell depowers, the moment you touch water with them you've just created a sea anchor for yourself. This could easily cost you your kite, and possibly your life if you're not aware of what to do. There are closed cell depowers that would work equally as well on the snow, but would also suit your water needs. They will be more expensive, so i won't dwell here. You can also use an LEI on the snow, the only disadvantage being setup time and location. Obviously it would be difficult to get into the back country and then inflate an LEI without the use of a snowmobile.

Now to sizing! This will depend alot on your predominant wind conditions as well as the surface you intend to ride most. Powder will require a larger kite than hardpack. Obviously it's safer to be slightly under powered then fully lit but not always as fun. Perhaps if you answer some of these questions we can better recommend kites for you!

However, here are a few that might interest you:

Flysurfer Pulse II 6m - this is a closed cell so could be used on water
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=31236

Ozone Access 6m (with harness, which you'll need if you don't already have one)
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=29961

HQ Apex IV 8m
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=31097
This guy hasn't been on in a while, might be a no go but might we worth a u2u if you're interested

Gin Eskimo II
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=31337
Be careful if you go this route, might be something wierd here. A little bigger than i might recommend for a 1st but it will be more usable in alot of conditions.

Flysurfer Unity 6m
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=31516
Similar to the Pulse II, closed cell so water would be an option here.


I think my job here is done!

dcel22 - 18-1-2016 at 10:54 PM

As for flysurfer, I see a lot of people in the snowkiting forum talking about the Flysurfer Peak 2. I am mainly going to be kiting on either a frozen lake or a field covered in snow. I was also considering a Flysurfer Peak 2 6m since people seem to really like it. Would you suggest the peak 2 over the speed or psycho? If I can go used to save a few bucks that would be nice. Looks like a Peak2 6m costs $899.

MotoFoo86 thanks for that nice reply. Very helpful! I'll steer away from the Montanas. I also want to stay away from the LEIs. I have a couple for kiteboarding and would really like to avoid setting them up on a freezing cold windy day. Also, not that I plan on it, I also like the idea that foils seem to be able to handle more abuse (from less experienced pilots). I'm thinking the pulse 2 then the unity. What do you think? Seems like much better prices (500 and 450) used compared to a new peak 2 @ 900. Not sure if the peak 2 would be a better kite though. I like that these kites seem like I could use for snowkiting, body dragging in the water, and potentially landboarding as well. Thanks!

MotoFoo86 - 18-1-2016 at 11:01 PM

I have zero experience with single skins, lots of people seem to love them others don't. They are a definite no go for water. Peaks also size up, for example people say the 4m peak pulls like a 6m ram air. Again no experience just regurgitating what ice read.

As for the pulse and unity I'd have to do more research before I'd be willing to render my verdict. Which ever one is in better shape will probably be your better bet. I believe the unity to be a newer model so that would be my go to personally.

Windstruck - 18-1-2016 at 11:26 PM

Welcome to the Monkey House dcell22! Always room for a fe more good chimps. Moto gave you some fine answers and I won't just repeat anything he said. I've zero experience anyway with the closed cell kites. I own and have used the Peak2 and Access for Snowkiting and think they are fine tools for the job.

Couple of important questions. Where do you live? Will you be on hardpack, ice, deep powder snow, etc? What sort of wind speeds do you expect? How much do you weigh? Do you want to keep your skis planted on the snow at all times or are you wanting to huck some air?

The 6m Access and 6m Peak2 are both fairly high wind snow kites if you are on the heavy side and/or plan to be plowing through deep snow.

dcel22 - 18-1-2016 at 11:34 PM

Hi Windstruck, thanks for the initiation into the Monkey House! lmao. I am 165lbs. I like on an inland lake in the metro Detroit area. So, I'll mostly be out on frozen lakes. Here and there I'll go out to snow covered fields. I really don't know on the wind speeds. The last couple days it has been about 15 knots but looking at the weather forecast I'd guess 5-15 knots usually??? I think for now I'd like to keep the board planted but in all honesty, the goal is to eventually get a some air. With the ice I think I'd be a little nervous. Maybe once there is more snow on it or in a field it wouldn't be that bad. If I could get something that could give me the possibility for air that would be great.

MotoFoo86 - 18-1-2016 at 11:41 PM

At 5 knots a 6m isn't going to be very exciting if there is anything covering the ice and upwind would probably be all but impossible. If 15 is your high end you'd probably be perfectly fine in a slightly bigger Kite. As for snow fields 5 knots would need a very large Kite to be effective. As much as I hate recommending going a little bigger than you may be currently comfortable with I think in the long run an 8m would bring you much more enjoyment.

That said you could probably pick up either flysurfer and either prove me wrong or resell them for pretty much what you bought them for.... Orrrr just begin building a quiver

IFlyKites - 18-1-2016 at 11:50 PM

If you are stuck between the two, here is my take:

Peak 2: Great low wind machine and will get you moving in almost any wind, not best for getting air but still possible and does have decent float. Pretty good for boosting as well! One thing I can definitely assure you is that it's a tank and you won't have to worry about blowing any cells compared to other kites, (single skin kites rock!). You could always get a used one, (difficult to find but they are floating around).

Flysurfer Psycho/Speed: Lot's of pop/float/getting air and great for freestyle. Try looking into a Speed 3 12m deluxe. I think that would be perfect for your wind conditions. Deluxe material is lighter than regular fabric.

Both kites are good and I don't think you could go wrong with either of them.

Windstruck - 19-1-2016 at 05:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MotoFoo86  
Orrrr just begin building a quiver


A quiver, what's that? :lol:

...and the cycle begins again.....

Feyd - 19-1-2016 at 06:14 AM

Welcome DCell22.

Quote: Originally posted by dcel22  
Hi everyone, I am looking for a good beginner friendly snowkite. I currently have an HQ Hydra 350 but am looking for a larger depower foil kite to use for snowkiting. Probably something in the 5.5m - 8.0m range.

I'm thinking Apex, access, lynx, montana??? Any suggestions? Have anything?

Looking for something affordable as I won't use it a ton and ideally a good used kite. Thanks! :D

Oh....also I don't know if there is anything out there but if I could somehow use this same kite in the water during the summer that would be great. Weather it be just for body dragging or even very windy days it would be cool. Not sure if this is an option.


Key words here are "good beginner kite" . As nice as it would be to have a closed cell multi tasker for use on land and water, it will be unlikely that they fall into the beginner category nor will they be inexpensive unless they are really old or just heavily used. Also, Speeds (especially early models) and Psychos are not beginner kites.

As DCel22 has LEIs I think the focus should be on the most common low AR entry level/touring kites. Access, Apex, Peaks, Virons.

Given the wind range and the rider's weight unless they are on a firm surface with skis they are going to need more kite than 5m range and even beyond the 8m range. Especially if they are on a snowboard.

As it turns out most manufacture's posted wind ranges are based on riders in DCel22's weight range.

Ozone Access:
8m 12-20kts.
10m, 10-18kts.

Great gust handling through all variations. Best variants are 2013+. 2014 and up are equipped with the Re-Ride system which makes them extremely safe and versatile compared to the Pre-'14. Allows the user to ride outside their comfort zone and progress with the confidence that the kite can be completely disabled in ANY wind conditions. Flight quality is amazing in the 2013+ models but the earlier models all do a great job as well.

HQ Apex:
8m 3-26kts.
11m 3-21kts.

Great all round touring kite and until recently at a lower cost than othe comparable kites. Not as refined as an Access but a good solid work horse with good gust handling properties. Dated safety systems and performance but a good bread and butter kite and can often be had for much less than other kites. These kites can be had complete with bar and lines for about what the Ozone equivalent would run. We used to use them for our school kites and they performed very well. They require a bit of tuning to get the best performance but they are a tough solid kite.

Flysurfer Peak 2:
4m 4-28kts.
6m 3.5-20kts.

The only production single skin depower on the market. A bit of a weird beast but bang for the buck it is a heck of a value. Wind range on this kite is understated to say the least. There is often confusion surrounding this kite as the wind ranges for a given size are much different than a tradition dual skin foil. In the smaller sizes they produce much more power than other kites listed here. It is a purpose built touring kite and also an excellent beginner kite due to it's huge depower range (better than any of the kites listed here) and it's lack of cells. One Peak 2 will cover the wind range of nearly 2 traditional dual skin open cells. As pointed out, people either love them or hate them. If you are used to certain kites, the Peak is a bit of a change. But if you take the time and learn how to really fly it, the Peak is an amazing kite.


Viron 2 DLX.
8m 6-22kts.
(no larger size available)

Viron 2 was initially Flysurfer's Uber safe trainer series and the Viron 1 was a bit of a dog IMO. It is also the only kite that defies my initial statement about closed cells. It has since been improved and they have added an 8m size this season. The second version is much better with better handling and is made out of deluxe material. So it's lighter and responds better to steering input. They are slow steering kites out of the box but can be tuned to be much sportier. Depower range is similar to the Access, flight quality as well. Safety system is excellent and works similarly to the Ozone ReRide.

And unlike the others, it is a closed cell so it can do double duty on snow and water. On water it would be an awesome high wind kite. We sell the 8m for $1049 RTF which is not bad for a forgiving and safe multi-tasker IMO.








abkayak - 19-1-2016 at 07:09 AM

Welcome aboard!
Feyd speaks the truth
what lei's do you have now?...im guessing something nasty that likes to kill people..we all buy them by mistake
im your weight and need 8m foil for most days on a landboard and a little float on the jumps
i like twin skin kites the most but they arent really beginner, solo or ice type kites...imo i guess 5th line helps
Apex and Access are easy kites to learn
Peeks dont get destroyed in the learning process

dcel22 - 19-1-2016 at 07:15 AM

Hmmmm....kinda thinking more and more about that peak 2. It would be nice tohave it work in water but maybe I just stick with my LEIs for that. I really like that it sounds like the peak2 is going to be user friendly and cover a very large wind range. I'm thinking I can use the peak 2 for snowkiting on frozen lakes, take it to fields, and then maybe use it for landboarding as well. Any suggestions on a size peak for me? 165 lbs. Seems like 6m kites arent that powerful but wondering if I should bump the size up. Someone in this post mentioned that peaks are usually sized a little diff. Thanks! All this info is extremely helpful. If I do go with the peak 2, does anyone know of a good place or discount code to use on a new one? Guessing i'd have to go new. Can't find a used one and probably dont have the patience or long enough of a season to wait too long.

dcel22 - 19-1-2016 at 07:21 AM

Abkayak i have a slingshot z 11 and an 8m which embarassingly I can't think of the name for right now. I got the LEIs to get back into kiteboarding. I used to have a 12m naish boxer 2 back in like 2005. Kites seem to have really come a long way. Wanted to get back into the sport but unfortunately didnt get a ton of use last season. I live on a lake so wakeboarding seems way easier effortwise rather than driving 45 min to get to my kite spot and then needing the wind conditions. I'm really excited about snowkiting. It seems like it will really help me build my skills for kiteboarding. Been out the last 3 days with my hydra 350 and ice skates and have had a blast!

abkayak - 19-1-2016 at 07:43 AM

nothing worthwhile is easy
:thumbup::thumbup:....as long as you got new enough features on your safeties alls good
everyone here knows i wont give a direct bedsheet endorsement....but peeks are nice:D

Windstruck - 19-1-2016 at 07:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by dcel22  
Hmmmm....kinda thinking more and more about that peak 2. It would be nice tohave it work in water but maybe I just stick with my LEIs for that. I really like that it sounds like the peak2 is going to be user friendly and cover a very large wind range. I'm thinking I can use the peak 2 for snowkiting on frozen lakes, take it to fields, and then maybe use it for landboarding as well. Any suggestions on a size peak for me? 165 lbs. Seems like 6m kites arent that powerful but wondering if I should bump the size up. Someone in this post mentioned that peaks are usually sized a little diff. Thanks! All this info is extremely helpful. If I do go with the peak 2, does anyone know of a good place or discount code to use on a new one? Guessing i'd have to go new. Can't find a used one and probably dont have the patience or long enough of a season to wait too long.


Here in the states you absolutely can't go wrong with doing kite business with Chris Kruge. This is "feyd". He runs a business in New Hampshire called Hardwater.

http://www.hardwaterkiter.com

You've already seen how knowledge he is. Please take my word (and many, many others here on PKF) 'that he is a stand up guy. I've bought five kites from him and he is a great guy to do business with. Having him as an information source is hard to put a value on.

I have no experience on sheet ice, but if snow is involved to increase resistance I suspect that the 6m Peak may pull up a little short unless the wnd is consistently above 15 knots. The 9m is a sweet kite and will take you quite a ways in either direction wind wise. I've got all four Peaks, but if I could only have one I'd go with the 9. I am a tad north of 200 lbs. My advice would be to strike up a personal communication offline with Chris and let him work this out with you as he has TONS of experience on ice.

Take note too of his suggestion of the newer Ozone Access kites. Pricier than the Peaks, but man, the "Re-Ride" system (5th line safety system) is DA BOMB. Don't get an Access kite without it.

WARNING - you are about to enter a vortex

yeti - 19-1-2016 at 07:30 PM

I would have bought that unity from smeagol if I knew it existed a couple months ago. I picked up a 6m outlaw from shop.flysurfer.com which is apparently very similar to the pulse II, but would have rather snagged a unity for what I wanted (storm kite). They do have some pretty good used equipment available shipped from Germany. With the current value of the US dollar compared to euros and the fact that the website price is showing more than you actually pay (remove the tax - you don't pay it), you're actually looking at very reasonable prices.

If you ever have soft snow, you'll want at least an 8m foil in 10-15 knots. For reference, I use between 12-15m of kite in that wind, and I am only 10lbs heavier. But you should always start small and work up gradually. Depending on your skiing and piloting ability of course. I think 6m would be silly for a beginner unless you had at least a solid 10 knots, and even then you're just barely starting to learn. Fine if you are on hard packed crust or ice though. A 6m peak may be perfect for you but I've never flown one - rely on the users like Feyd here for advice. Generally it seems to work out that you get a smallish kite - between 6 and 9m and then as you get better you'll want a bigger one in the 12+ range for more power or to use on days when the forecast doesn't work out as good as you wanted and you need to salvage an outing.

If your budget is large enough for a couple kites - or even large enough to buy new - Feyd has the right options. I'd probably pick up an Access or two in that case. With my limited experience with those models - they should be at least as beginner friendly as anything else on the market right now, so you can't really go wrong. If you had a hankering for a Peak, I think I'd be tempted to get at least one other non-Peak foil as a reference for the 'other' foils. It seems to be a bit of a contentious issue - not just on this forum, but even for other people I've talked to. Some people like them, some don't like em as much as the more traditional depower foils. If you're just starting out on foils - maybe your mind is still open to the world and it won't matter either way.

One thing I'd caution against is comparing wind range advice from the folks who kite at 5000 feet or higher. The difference is probably 1-2m in kite size depending on altitude and humidity.

Another thing I'd avoid taking to heart too much is the suggestion that "performance" models aren't suitable for beginners. This is especially true with flysurfer kites made since '09 or '10. It is true that they are capable of generating more lift, but you'd be using a smaller size if you are in fact a beginner. At least this was true with the speed 3 I own. Though I was already very comfortable with the flying before I got into the sport - so maybe not the best recollection based on what a true beginner would experience. That being said, there are some performance kites I'd avoid. Ozone Frenzy is one example. It may be the only modern kite I've flown that seems like it would make a learner think twice about the sport.

Cheeks - 19-1-2016 at 07:59 PM

U2U sent Welcome.

Cheeks - 19-1-2016 at 08:00 PM

U2U sent Welcome.

Cheeks - 19-1-2016 at 08:04 PM

U2U sent Welcome.

nate76 - 19-1-2016 at 08:38 PM

Hey dcel - welcome!

Lots of good advice here - I'll just add that the Apex was updated this year. Feyd mentioned they had an outdated safety system - that was true on the Apex IV which used to the old top-hat safety, but the Apex V's have moved to a front line flag out system.

I've had a chance to use it and it works well. You can see my review/video of the Apex V elsewhere in the forum - I just posted it yesterday. Depending on your budget and how you want to spend your money, I think the Apex would make a great 1st kite.

My inclination would be if you know you're going to get more than one kite (don't kid yourself), I would get a smaller 5.5m/6m/8m "trainer" like an Apex or Access that will also serve as your high wind kite once you get up to speed. Then use your saved money to eventually get a larger higher performance kite down the road.

Lots of great kites out there now days - hard to go too wrong!

Nate

ssayre - 19-1-2016 at 09:14 PM

Hmm....a real humdinger we have here. Lots of great information and advice given. Personally I don't get caught up in the single skin vs foil debate :saint:

abkayak - 20-1-2016 at 06:29 AM

1le skins are for wacky people...ssayre proves my point and example
never flew one but i've watched them in action for hours on end in some real crappy winds
seems to me they are the best snowkite set up....in theory anyway

Windstruck - 20-1-2016 at 07:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
1le skins are for wacky people...ssayre proves my point and example


Hey! I resemble that remark!

abkayak - 20-1-2016 at 07:40 AM

Windstruck would fall into this category as well...be careful who you associate with :D

ssayre - 20-1-2016 at 12:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
1le skins are for wacky people...ssayre proves my point and example
never flew one but i've watched them in action for hours on end in some real crappy winds
seems to me they are the best snowkite set up....in theory anyway


Me wacky??? I'm all business. :)

grigorib - 21-1-2016 at 03:14 PM

As guys mentioned the Peak is compact and is especially great for lightwind. It would kind of suck for jumping.
For water you certainly need a closed cell foil and that's where a Viron or Unity or Psycho come to the picture.

If you got enough cash to spend on a Speed or a Sonic - those would be your dream kites for either land, snow or water. At ~ $1000-$2000 mark they are fairly realistic dreams to come true.