Power Kite Forum

depower AQR?

bigkid - 19-1-2016 at 07:36 AM

I have made up a number of AQR systems for quite a few fixed bridle guys with some very happy family members. The smile on one guys wife was well worth the effort when he told her the kite just took off today while I was in the buggy, guess it worked.:D

I have been asked by some of the depower guys if my AQR will work with the bar setup, simple answer is NO. Well maybe????

So what I would like to ask is if anyone who is into the depower bar setup would be willing to help with some ideas on a general design for an AQR. If you are happy with the QR on your bar now, stick with it. Your not the guys I want to work with, why reinvent the mouse trap when it works for you the way it is. I want to make the QR work without anyone's input in the buggy.
This idea will only work with a buggy, not a board of any type.

I have been in contact with a couple of kite designers who are excited with the possibility of a new design idea but at this point its only a bunch of ideas.
Anyone want to help out?

PHREERIDER - 19-1-2016 at 08:11 AM

just as input on design. chicken loops release of today most all are PUSH AWAY release mechs , so thats a big hurdle. i would not tamper chicken loop release mechs you want that TOTALY unobstructed and actually i would go at the harness hook to loop as point of release action with buggy tether for actuation.

so a spreader bar with hook/release hook release action would be the point of release ...seems like thats what you have already but with stropline on harness right ?

and safety leash attached as normal , the kite would go to safety leash upon release.

a suicide leash set up is a definite NO NO

you have a (tethered pull)snatch block on spreader bar already right? thats whats in my head anyway ATM . so chicken LOOP would be treated like strop, so pilot still has access to activate loop release by hand.

B-Roc - 19-1-2016 at 10:11 AM

In addition to what free says you need to think about where the rider attaches the leash. I attach mine to my harness loops not my spreader bar so if my spreader bar cut away I'd still have the kite attached to me via the leash on my hip loop.

if you are talking to them remind them that top hat type safeties should be pull away not push. I got into a scenario a year or two ago when I was hooked in on my leash but not my donkey dick and the kite launched.. Given I don't have long arms, and the kite was out of control I had to act fast and when I reached the top hat I realized the down side of a push away right away. I could barely reach that and without the bar in my hand I had no leverage to push it away. Finally managed to pull it hard enough to force the pressure of the kite to pop the safety though it was activated incorrectly and required quite some fiddling to put it all back together again. That was a real eye opener.

hiaguy - 19-1-2016 at 11:05 AM

I don't have the reflexes to pull/push the loop release when I'm going OBE. I visualize the AQR replacing the chicken loop - having the power lines going directly to it or to a spinning connector of some sort. I'm not as clear as how the 5th line tether/flagout connection would work compared to a Navigator/Magnet bar, but I'd still like to attach it to my harness.
But, if an AQR is gonna let go of a strop, couldn't it just as easily let go of a 'loop?

PS: WBB in 49 days ! :wee:

PHREERIDER - 19-1-2016 at 12:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  

But, if an AQR is gonna let go of a strop, couldn't it just as easily let go of a 'loop?

PS: WBB in 49 days ! :wee:



thats what i'm saying , strop or loop it works same

bigkid - 19-1-2016 at 12:27 PM

Let go of a fb kite and it will more or less drop like a rock. A depower will maintain its shape and blow away to cause other problems. Not good. You need to hang on to the depower untill it is rendered useless.

ssayre - 19-1-2016 at 12:30 PM

I tether my leash to the buggy when hot wired. I don't see why that wouldn't work. sure, you could run over it but that's the same if attached to harness or buggy.

PHREERIDER - 19-1-2016 at 01:33 PM

and once it is released by AQR , kite would go to regular safety flag , which would be attached to harness/or shortie leash to spreader bar.

B Roc all safety features of kite would be the same and thats what you want like you stated.

alot folks are going to shortie leashes esp. if they don't ride unhooked.


this is all in assumption you let go of the bar! if not you will going with it just like an unhooked move.

so the bar is violently removed from your control and AQR drops you and kite goes to functioning safety.

B-Roc - 19-1-2016 at 02:56 PM

I don't like shortie leashes as I like to hook my safety leash to my harness before I pick my bar up from the kite stake. If you ride a shortie (which I have) you have to launch the kite and then hook the leash in or bend down in an awkward position to attach the leash while the bar is staked and then stand up. I like a leash that reaches the ground while I'm standing or semi crouched. So you are either uncomfortable or detached from your safety when launching. Neither is preferred for me.

Feyd - 19-1-2016 at 03:57 PM

We run tethers from our base anchors so we don't have to reach down so far to disengage from the anchor. Allows the use of shorty leash which I prefer as long leashes drag or get in the way. I'm not a unhooked handle passing kinda of rider. :P

I've never seen an AQR. How does it work?

mainekite2 - 19-1-2016 at 04:44 PM

Hey Jeff,
Couldn't you just attach a snap shackle to the AQR and attach the chicken loop to that. Then just need to make sure safety leash functions correctly.

bigkid - 19-1-2016 at 06:02 PM

The AQR for the FB kites works on the principle that as soon as you rise up an inch or so off the seat, it deploys and you basically never leave the buggy and the kite is gone.
Once you leave the seat your momentum is in motion and its up to power of the kite and length of the leash or anchor as to the distance you travel. The farther you travel the greater the danger of the OBE. The anchor point is the other factor. It needs to be directly under your butt hole. Sorry for the wording but it's we're it has to be for any 360 degree OBE.

bigkid - 19-1-2016 at 06:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mainekite2  
Hey Jeff,
Couldn't you just attach a snap shackle to the AQR and attach the chicken loop to that. Then just need to make sure safety leash functions correctly.

Yes and no.
One problem is the distance to the bar in increased by a couple inches and that is for some, to far to work the bar.
Anothe issue is the lack of being able to spin the bar without binding up the AQR.

ssayre - 19-1-2016 at 06:16 PM

Is this project partly to do with you maybe acquiring a bunch of high ar race depowers? :)

bigkid - 19-1-2016 at 06:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
Is this project partly to do with you maybe acquiring a bunch of high ar race depowers? :)

:ninja:

PHREERIDER - 19-1-2016 at 07:41 PM

:D 11m

bigkid - 20-1-2016 at 07:36 AM

Been up most of the night with my headache and trying to focus on something worthwhile I had a moment of clarity.
Hot fudge and blue berry pancakes need a bit of vanilla ice cream to make the meal complete.

I got out a couple of my depower kite setups and looking at the chicken loop-quick release on the bars I found they are not alike. So 1 idea will not work with both bars.
This is the part that would require a complete new design and bar set up.
Here is my question to you all. Put aside your brand loyalty and all your personal expertise on how to fly with a bar set up and think about the basic concept of the chicken loop, quick release, and bar. If there was a basic concept of the 3 parts to work in 1 direction, (pull towards your chicken loop to deploy the QR, what is an except able distance from the spreader bar to the farthest distance of the bar that would work for you?
One idea that has come up is a replaceable chicken loop AQR that can be swapped out with your regular bar set up.

BeamerBob - 20-1-2016 at 09:53 AM

I'm that guy that never complains about bar throw distance. I'm good up to about 42" from the hook.

B-Roc - 20-1-2016 at 10:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  

One idea that has come up is a replaceable chicken loop AQR that can be swapped out with your regular bar set up.


I think that is the best bet. That or a quick release spreader hook. Or replacing the hook all together with a shackle.

Handles and strops are all the same. There is a lot more variability in bars. The only common elements being the chicken loop and spreader bar.

If you go spreader bar I still prefer a pivoting spreader bar as it greatly reduces spreader bar creep. I suppose a shackle could do the same. How about a AQR dynabar at a reasonable price :thumbup:

bigkid - 21-1-2016 at 07:28 AM

What's the process you guys go through when you fly depower?
Do you hook in before you launch or after?
If after you launch, can you do it 1 handed or do you need 2 hands?
Do you use the donkey dick to lock the chicken loop onto the spreader bar?
Do you launch in or out of the buggy?
Do any of you use a fifth line on your kite?
Is your quick release on the chicken loop, On the line between the chicken loop in the bar, or above the bar?

I have some great ideas that will work with my style of flying, not sure they will work with how others fly.

UnknownAX - 21-1-2016 at 08:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
What's the process you guys go through when you fly depower?
Do you hook in before you launch or after?
If after you launch, can you do it 1 handed or do you need 2 hands?
Do you use the donkey dick to lock the chicken loop onto the spreader bar?
Do you launch in or out of the buggy?
Do any of you use a fifth line on your kite?
Is your quick release on the chicken loop, On the line between the chicken loop in the bar, or above the bar?

I have some great ideas that will work with my style of flying, not sure they will work with how others fly.


I do not buggy but in general, when flying a depower kite:

- You hook in before launching
- You can launch one-handed
- You use the donkey dick (or you'll be in for a surprise:D)
- Some kites have a fifth line, and if your kite has one, you should be using it
- The quick release is on the chicken loop and all new systems are push-away. Pull releases only work under load and are often assymetrical. "Top hat" style above the bar systems do exist on older kites (HQ might actually still be using this system - I hope not...)
I've never seen a quick release "in the bar" and I'm not sure how that would work:smilegrin:.

IMHO the AQR should be integrated or attached to the spreader bar. Maybe a Wichard hook could be welded/flexibly attached to the spreader bar (without the hook). You could then attach a line to the Wichard release and loop it through a small pulley/hole below the Wichard so the line would always pull in the right direction to release the hook regardless of the direction you're being pulled. The end of this short line would attach to the buggy with a clip or something that's easy to undo when stepping out of the buggy. The AQR line should probably have a small leash type release system, too...

Edit.: This way the AQR would also be completely independent of the QR on the bar, which would be a big plus. And it could be used with handle kites as well.

BeamerBob - 21-1-2016 at 05:43 PM

I hook in the chicken loop, donkey dick, and leash before launching. I can go to safety if something goes wrong on launch. I always launch standing up so I can move around as necessary unless conditions are very tame and I've already been flying and the kite stalled or just ran out of wind. Montanas have had the tophat safety but I understand that is changing soon. Arcs go to safety by disengaging the chicken loop and going to front line flag.

ssayre - 21-1-2016 at 06:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob  
Montanas have had the tophat safety but I understand that is changing soon.


I checked out hq's site http://www.powerkites.de/ and it looks like all of their 2016 depowers have a front line safety (no tophat safety) except the Zeekai. It was still shown with tophat. I didn't translate all the pages so just going off the pictures. Is there something about the zeekai that won't accept the bar on their other kites?

B-Roc - 22-1-2016 at 07:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob  
I hook in the chicken loop, donkey dick, and leash before launching. I can go to safety if something goes wrong on launch. I always launch standing up so I can move around as necessary .


^ that is exactly what I do but I landboard and don't get into a buggy.

I attach the leash to my harness first (at it controls my 5th line safety), then I step on my landing line and pull and sheath my kite stake. Then I hook in the chicken loop, thread the donkey dick, step off the landing line, pull the center lines in one hand and step back usually with the bar dangling or loosely held in one hand depending upon conditions. As the kite launches, I drop the middle lines, grab the bar and steer it through the window or into the powerzone depending upon conditions.

bigkid - 24-1-2016 at 07:43 PM

The 1st prototype leaves in the morning for Whitby, Ontario, Canada. We'll see how those foreigners deal with technology.:D

hiaguy - 25-1-2016 at 07:19 AM

"New kite" means: no wind.
I'm hopeful that "New AQR" means: Play Time!
:wee:

B-Roc - 25-1-2016 at 10:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
The 1st prototype leaves in the morning for Whitby, Ontario, Canada. We'll see how those foreigners deal with technology.:D


Well, in that case, if it doesn't work...



Bladerunner - 25-1-2016 at 10:59 AM

I am realizing that I don't fully get the function of an AQR even for Fixed Bridle.

I think I may need pictures to? I always thought that an AQR was a line attached to my buggy ( under my butt ) that would release my strop when hooked in and lifted out of the buggy. Allowing me to let go of the handles and be released from my strop so the kite can fly away? :puzzled: This makes great sense since I don't trust flying hooked in to a basic strop under extreme load. Even with a manual QR.

My arcs flag out and my Flysurfers are both 5th line. In both cases if my chicken loop releases I am holding a kite that is now fully powered.
In my mind I am riding along and get hit by something that lifts me out of my seat. The AQR opens or releases my chicken loop and BAM !!!!!! My bar pulls in and kite powers up hard! NOT ideal? Of course you can now let go of the bar.

So ..... am I missing something? Can you explain to me when and why you want the depower kite to automatically deploy to safety?

I also typically 1st launch standing and hooked in. For all the reasons Bob points out.
I automatically push the bar out at 1st sign of trouble. I have gotten to trust my arcs and slide it out as the kite hits the edge and settles down.

Good luck with the project. Any way to make this sport safer has my support!

bigkid - 25-1-2016 at 01:32 PM

Ken, your correct about the AQR. The one for the fix bridal does work in conjunction with the buggy and when it lets go as you rise up off the seat the kite the lines that handles in the strop are gone.
The system I designed for the Depower kite is along the same lines as for the fix bridal kite. But the system I sent out today works in conjunction with the fifth line. So if you have a depower kite that runs was a fifth line I have an AQR that will work with that.
With this new system you still have to connected to the buggy under your seat, and when it releases the chicken loop it is still connected to the fifth line which renders the kite useless but still hangs onto it.

hiaguy - 25-1-2016 at 02:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
With this new system you still have to connected to the buggy under your seat, and when it releases the chicken loop it is still connected to the fifth line which renders the kite useless but still hangs onto it.

I think the caveat here is that I will have to remember to let go of the bar :o
(I've already proven that I don't have the reaction speed to pull the quick release on the chicken loop.)

bigkid - 25-1-2016 at 04:28 PM

Depending on the severity of the OBE shows now you might be able to hang onto it or it might be ripped from your hands and end up with a few broken fingers.
I know one of my AQR's broke my little pinky finger because the handles were ripped out of my hands so quickly and severely.

Bladerunner - 25-1-2016 at 06:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
Depending on the severity of the OBE shows now you might be able to hang onto it or it might be ripped from your hands and end up with a few broken fingers.
I know one of my AQR's broke my little pinky finger because the handles were ripped out of my hands so quickly and severely.


Yes this is sort of what I see as a downfall of the system. Whenever my chicken loop has popped accidently under power BAM. I can only hope my mind set would allow me to let go of the bar? Kind of counter intuitive at the moment I think?

bigkid - 25-1-2016 at 07:47 PM

I thought the same way with the strop falling out of the spreader bar hook. Things changed when the power is on and it unhooked with a bit of power. Of course I can speak with the knowledge of both types of an OBE. The one that was kinda cool how I landed on my feet and walked away from it to the one that in all rights should have killed me. But who cares, right?
The AQR is not for everyone. And it's up to you and nobody else.
The law says I have to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle, I say no. A state or country can't tell me to wear a helmet when they condone ....... Wrong place to argue my thoughts about life....
Don't use a quick release or use one, it's your choice. It's my choice to use one. I fly larger kites than others in the same situation and I travel at higher speeds than most. I don't worry about being overpowered and enjoy the ability to max out the kite and break lines, and kite parts along with sliding sideways for dozens of feet while waiting for the buggy to catch up with me and the kite.
Not everyone goes Mach 10 with their hair on fire. I'm still working on the Mach 10 part.:evil:
Just saying...

hiaguy - 25-1-2016 at 08:04 PM

Ken, I've been pulled out while hooked in, and I've had the loop fall out leaving me holding the bar.
In the first instance, I couldn't get to the release fast enough, and in the second I gripped the bar even tighter (but did manage to get the loop back in the hook).
I like flying (handles and bar) with just finger tips, and I'm hopeful that not having to worry about an OBE will let me realize that the kite's leaving for a reason. I will be able to let the 5th line do its job, and then reel it back in.
(I'm looking forward to WBB to really test it out, but hopefully I'll have a couple of sessions at home sooner than that.)

3shot - 15-3-2016 at 04:41 PM

Any updates on the prototype?

hiaguy - 15-3-2016 at 08:14 PM

I did manage to get in one session at home (with my 7m Lynx) to make sure that the AQR worked before heading to WBB: pulled my butt up out of the seat and the kite went away; reset and threw the kite up overhead and the kite went away. So far, so good.

So...
I rode depowers with the AQR for five days in Wildwood, and I never left the buggy unintentionally. Winds were generally light, but there was a while where I went from 11m overpowered, to 9m well-powered, to 7m (at which point the wind switched off) underpowered - in about 90 minutes.
Through the week the AQR let the kite go once (though a turn that I thought I had under control - I guess not), and held on a couple of times that I was sure it was going to let go - I guess I never came out of the seat far enough to pull the AQR trigger.
I was concerned that there might be more of a reach required to the end of the bar throw, but without the spreader hook the chicken loop was actually closer to me. The only "issue" I had was that connecting the 'biners to the safety line, when wearing gloves, was occasionally a challenge.

(I also flew my Reactor for about half an hour with a strop - my first time ever with a strop. Seemed to work, but I still think I'll keep my FBs to handles without being hooked-in.)

Survey says?
It seems to be doing exactly what I need it to: keep me in the seat, and let the kite go when I don't.
The intangible "feeling" I had was one of greater safety in as much as I have always been concerned about being hooked in with a chicken-loop and not being able to get to the safety fast enough.

3shot - 16-3-2016 at 04:16 AM

Sounds like its going good Howard! Thanks for the update.

bigkid - 16-3-2016 at 06:14 AM

Howard,
Sounds like the anchor strap is a bit long. The 5th line connection was a concern during the design phase, that's the reason for the multiple mount points for the beaner to connect to the 5th line ring. You wear gloves?:o
The beaners that are used are designed to break away if you stand up and need to get away from the buggy without disconnecting. Any thing bigger will not break away. Anything over 5lbs of strength is too much for the Beaner. The snap shackle only requires 2 pounds of pressure to release the kite while not deforming or breaking if you forget to unhook before you try to walk away. I modify the snap shackle and pulley block in order to work with the AQR setup.
Glad it worked for you.:D

hiaguy - 16-3-2016 at 06:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
Howard,
Sounds like the anchor strap is a bit long. The 5th line connection was a concern during the design phase, that's the reason for the multiple mount points for the beaner to connect to the 5th line ring. Sounds like the anchor strap is a bit long. The 5th line connection was a concern during the design phase, that's the reason for the multiple mount points for the beaner to connect to the 5th line ring.
I had it loose enough so that there was a little "give" - the beach had some mini-dunes, and I wanted to be sure that the release didn't pop when I got just a little "light" in the seat. But it was tight enough so that my hips didn't get over the side rails.
Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
Howard, You wear gloves?:o
It was cold for the first couple of days. I might be Canadian, but I hate the cold.
Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
The beaners that are used are designed to break away if you stand up and need to get away from the buggy without disconnecting. Any thing bigger will not break away. Anything over 5lbs of strength is too much for the Beaner.
I did manage to stretch one out - I'm likely going to have to get a small supply of them.

bigkid - 16-3-2016 at 06:59 AM

Got lots in stock, want a lime green one? Maybe red, blue, black.......

Demoknight - 16-3-2016 at 08:14 AM

What is stopping you from hooking a shorty leash up the same way you hook up your killers on your aqr? The chicken loop can hook directly into the snap shackle and you have done zero modification besides removing the pulley from the equation. It wouldn't add any length to the bar throw since you are already gaining ground on how short the D-spreader is compared to hook, and you have no pulley, so the bar should be little to no distance farther than if you were using a traditional hook spreader. The aqr would not know the difference as all forces would essentially be the same in relation to what happens from the snap shackle down to the seat.

Your depower setup from the chicken loop to the kite would be no different either. Your safety would still run from the chicken loop up to the kite, so you could still swivel the bar and chicken loop just fine. I've got everything I would need for doing an aqr setup with my depowers or my fb without any modifications.

bigkid - 16-3-2016 at 08:54 AM

Try it out and let me know how it works. Or doesn't work

Demoknight - 16-3-2016 at 09:01 AM

I don't see how it wouldn't work. What problem do you have with it? You don't need the chicken loop to fire to release the kite. The safety line is just a passthrough, and you can trigger your safety by unhooking and just letting go of the bar. I don't see a way that this is prone to failure unless there is something I am missing.

bigkid - 16-3-2016 at 11:48 AM

NONE of the snap shackles are set up for this procedure. They are designed for use on a boat. That's why I went through every single kind of snapshackle and quick release before I ended up modifying the snap shackle that I use. It's not quite as simple as just a few parts Off the shelf.

bigkid - 16-3-2016 at 12:01 PM

It isn't as easy as do this, do that, don't do this.
Sorry to be in your face with this. Unless you actually do it, thinking about it, reasoning about it, or reading what somebody else did, doesn't work. It's all about practical application. So to explain why it works, what needs to be done, doesn't work in everybody's mind. If that was true I had a bazillion ideas that worked on paper but not in practical use. It was only after hours and hours in the garage connected to a high-speed winch that most of this became apparent to myself and the poor kid I was jerking out of the buggy. But the truth to the matter came out at the beach. And all practical application, that's where it was fine tuned. I did the beach testing, with a carbon fiber chest protector, a full face helmet, and the phone dialed to 911 and the specific instructions to the two people watching, to call the hospital no matter what, was the only way to find out.
All of this testing was done prior to my ribs being healed. That's how serious I was about this and how much I trust it now.
After all the testing in the garage and at the beach there was still time to go back and redesign it and retest it before I came up with an actual application that worked.
I didn't just come up with the idea for Howard with out real time testing. I did go out and tried it out before I redesign it an a second test to make sure it would work.
With all I did won't amount to a hill of beans if Howard doesn't communicate with me while he is actually using it. That means hooked up in the buggy to the kite and on the phone talking to me.
If this system is installed EXACTLY as I specify, I guarantee it will work. If anyone installs it different, then the world only knows what will happen.

I wouldn't want to bet on your life, that's why I bet on my life. It works.