Power Kite Forum - NPW - Broke bridle lines - Need advice

NPW - Broke bridle lines - Need advice

lunchbox - 30-1-2016 at 10:01 PM

Had a great session today flying the 4m Nasa Star 3...well until I broke 2 bridle lines.

Fortunately, both bridle lines snapped at the point where they meet one of the main lines so I was able to gather all 3 lines together and make a knot and continue flying.

To my surprise the kite seemed to fly normally and the knot held.

So on to my questions -

1) Does anyone know what type of line this is? And strength (i.e. 100kb)?
2) Where can I get some replacement line (Maybe a fabric store or an REI)?
3) If not, maybe someone can recommend a place to get it online?
4) Would you leave it as is or replace the lines?
5) What's the best way to connect these lines together?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I have never had to replace bridle lines before.

bigkid - 31-1-2016 at 06:00 AM

Get in touch with the manufacturer and tell them which lines were broke and see if they will replace them. As for replacements at your local store you can use pretty much anything as long as it's up above 20of.
You can also get online and look for bridal material and see what you can come up with. You will more than likely need to get some stuff that is large enough to sew The loops at both ends. Make sure they are the same leingth as the other side of the kite.
The two last things you can do is, contact kitemaker4 and ask her what materials she uses, or send the kite back to the manufacturer and ask them to fix it.
I have done all the above with great success even to the point of resoling each cell to replace the tabs at the end of each bridal connection. After getting the same fabric material and line material from the manufacture.

For what it's worth if the kite fly is fine the way it is everyone has their opinion on how to fix it chances are it will continue to fly fine. I have done a lot of bridal replacement on many kites and sold them with the replacement parts being a different Color and material without any problems. But that's just the way that I operate.

Randy - 31-1-2016 at 07:10 AM

If it were me, I would be very tempted to leave it alone as long as the repair is secure and it flies ok. The kite is 4 meters - the bridles are probably over 200 CM long. If a pair is 1 CM shorter due to the knot - that's less than a 1/2% difference in the overall length of two bridles out of 60 or so. I would mark it with a sharpie or something so I knew where it was, should the opportunity arise to get it fixed. You might do more harm trying to fix it.

Since you asked about how to do the repair, take a look at Tom White's NPW9b calculator. Cascade bridling is used on the NS kites. Tom's calculator has a couple sections on this type of bridling and (while complicated) it would show you how to make new bridles to repair the kite. Its likely that the repair will involve fixing other bridles as well because there may be another pair of bridle on the same line elsewhere in the kite. You would get the proper length by measuring the same pair on the opposite side.

If that doesn't scare you off then give it a try. (Don't try to compare the bridle lengths for the 9b kite since that won't work at all.)

http://members.shaw.ca/kiteman/Downloads.htm

Finally, you might see if Susan (kitemaker4) would repair it for you.

Randy - 31-1-2016 at 07:17 AM

double post

Prussik - 31-1-2016 at 09:23 AM

I have never had to replace a bridle line on NS but I have added additional length to many. A quick supply is available at the fishing dept. where you can get 40 or 50 # spectra line or you can order similar at Amazon. Replacing a line to make one identical to the other side would be a 10 min. job and I can't understand what's all the fuss about.

skimtwashington - 31-1-2016 at 11:06 AM

Was piece(s) that broke knotted or spliced on....sleeved and sewn?( I mean before break...not the repair-which you knotted).

Pic might be helpful.

lunchbox - 31-1-2016 at 12:20 PM

Thanks for the information guys. Very helpful!

Does anyone know what's the best knot to use to tie 3 lines together to form a Y connection? I used an overhand knot but I know it's not the best knot to use in terms of strength.

What about the knot at the bridle (maybe a bowline knot)?

I think I'm going to do what Randy mentioned and just leave it along for now or I might just add a little extension to each line to make sure it's the exact length (it's raining and I'm kinda bored).

I've also reached out to Steffen. I was probably going to order a couple of more kites from him so I'm sure he can send me both the replacement bridles and lines that make up the cascade.

@bigkid - What does the 'of' stand for? 20of.

@Prussik - What knot did you use to add the additional length to each line (double fisherman's maybe)?

@skimtwashington - It snapped right where the bridles lines meet one of the main lines. Unfortunately, and I can't tell for certain because my eyes are getting worse and I can't find the magnifying glass, but it looks like they came together using some kind of knot. I'll see if I can post a picture today so you guys can see.

Prussik - 1-2-2016 at 09:27 PM

I have used different knots in the past but now I use the smallest - whatever its name. You make an overhand knot and feed the other end backwards. It is considered to be prone to slippage (so in mountaineering it is used with tapes rather than ropes) but I have never had it slip on Spectra or Dyneema lines even with closely trimmed ends. What is very advisable is to coat all knots with Aqua Seal. Let it partially cure for an hour or so, then - with wet fingers - form a nice smooth shape around your knot to eliminate any potential for snagging. It probably also helps to prevent slippage. My contribution to knot making...
BTW I would not hesitate to replace just a part (rather than whole) of a bridle line in some cases if it saved me the effort in making end connections.

P.S. I tried to copy this posting into the posting box. Preview deleted it. They've sure screwed up this posting software.

bigE123 - 2-2-2016 at 03:15 AM

Not sure how your bridle was originally connected but it should have been with larks heads. The main line has a loop and the two secondary ends (also have loops) are attached via a larks head to the primary. Once you add a knot you are effectively halving the line strength. With the knot you have at the moment although the kite still flies as it did you may notice the kite skin where those two lines attach has more of a crease, if this is the case then those bridles are now slightly shorter.
I'd pursue getting a replacement bridle primary/secondaries so you keep the same material and the lines sent should be already be the right size, I'm surprised they broke just flying, must have been a weakness there.
If you can't get replacement lines there are a couple of options, but please don't use fishing dyneema line whilst it may look similar and be called "Dyneema" it's properties are different to kite bridle line and you'll end up with that stretching and passing more load to the existing lines.
1: Get some bridle line, I can post a link for the stuff if you need it. I tend to use 60DaN for primary and 30-40DaN for secondaries.
Measure the opposite lines, now you need to think how you are going to do the replacement, loops or knots, knots are easy but obviously have more chance of snagging when packed away. I would use a "double stopper" for the primary (overhand knot with an extra overhand), the secondaries I'd use a double slipper knot to create a loop, pass it over the stopper knot and pull tight.
Two things to remember you need to add extra length for the amount of line the knot requires, burn the cut ends with a lighter, it stops any fraying and makes a slight mushroom at the end which prevents the knot slipping ;-)

lunchbox - 2-2-2016 at 11:19 PM

@Prussik - Thanks for the tip regarding the Aqua Seal...I had never heard of that trick!

@bigE123 - I'm not sure how the original bridle was connected but I don't think it was with a Larks head. But what you suggested regarding the main line and secondary ends having a loop and attaching them together via a larks head was exactly what I was thinking of doing. Or maybe having a double stopper on the main line and connecting the looped bridles lines to that.
I was going to make new bridle lines and the part that attaches to the kite, I was going to use a Gnat Hitch knot. I'll probably have to extend the main line and if I do I was going to use a Zeppelin knot.

I didn't mention it in my post, but the bridle lines broke after I dropped the kite and the bridle line got wrapped around a slightly protruding nail head that was sticking up from the asphalt. For some odd reason, they seem to be pretty common on this stretch of asphalt. I'm curious to know what they were used for. I just have to be really careful going forward.

I did get some 200lb Spectra line from a fish and tackle store. It looks like an exact match to the bridle on the kite. Hopefully this should be fine.
But, if you can provide me with that link, I would be grateful!

I'm going to start the work on the kite tomorrow after work. Looking forward to seeing how it goes. I was pretty bummed about it snapping but if the fix turns out to be pretty painless then at least I'll know that it's not such a big deal after all.

bigE123 - 3-2-2016 at 04:32 AM

FYI Here's what I use for my bridles: Bridle Line

bigE123 - 3-2-2016 at 04:35 AM

FYI Here's what I use for my bridles: Bridle Line

Prussik - 4-2-2016 at 09:31 AM

I have not tested fishing line Spectra or Dyneema vs. "normal" bridle lines nor have I seen results of such tests to assume that they are substantially different. I would expect that strong opinions to the contrary can be substantiated by equally strong evidence which I am not aware of and would love to see. I am not particularly advocating the use of fishing line but in an emergency it is readily available and I have no reason to dissuade its use.

Adding a knot of equal or greater strength to the line that already has knots has no effect on line strength. If the new knot is weaker than the existing ones, then the strength of the line will be diminished but only by the difference in new and existing knots. Therefore the argument of halving the line strength is inappropriate for the line with existing knots. You won't halve what has already been halved. The strength of the line is determined by the weakest "link", not by the number of "links".

200 lb constitutes a gross overkill for a bridle line particularly for a kite with as many bridles as NS.

lunchbox - 4-2-2016 at 10:18 PM

Well I repaired the kite last night.

I ended up adding a little extra length to each of the two bridle lines and used a Zeppelin knot to do so.
With that extra length I created a loop and used a larks head to connect each of the two bridel lines to the overhand knot I added to the end of the main line.

I am planning to take the kite out this weekend so we'll see if it holds.

After doing this I did some more reading and think I found a better way to connect the two bridles lines to the main line....by using a double sheet bend knot. I'm not going to fiddle with the bridles any more but if I need to do a similar repair, I will try this knot.

Quote:

200 lb constitutes a gross overkill for a bridle line particularly for a kite with as many bridles as NS.

You are probably right but the line that I am using is an exact match to the line that's on the kite. So my question is, could the bridles and main lines on the kite look the exact same but be a lesser strength and weight?

bigE123 - 5-2-2016 at 01:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lunchbox

Yes they could, IMHO, kite bridle line is a "static" line and will only start to stretch once it's close or over it's maximum load capacity, keep applying more load it'll stretch and eventually break above the quoted load limit, fishing line is not a static line, it will start to stretch below the load limit and will continue till it breaks around the load limit. That's always been my understanding, but as you have used 200lb line you will probably not really notice much stretch as the rating is well above the load the line will be under.

ssayre - 5-2-2016 at 07:11 AM

maybe they use 200 as well for easier assembly than thin line??

lunchbox - 5-2-2016 at 07:45 AM

I've been in touch with Steffen via email for the last few days and that was one of the first questions I asked him - What type of line are you using and what strength.

For whatever reason, he has not directly answered that and a few other questions I asked.

I sent him another email this morning.

Quote:

maybe they use 200 as well for easier assembly than thin line??

Windstruck - 5-2-2016 at 08:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lunchbox

I've been in touch with Steffen via email for the last few days and that was one of the first questions I asked him - What type of line are you using and what strength.

For whatever reason, he has not directly answered that and a few other questions I asked.

I sent him another email this morning.

Quote:

maybe they use 200 as well for easier assembly than thin line??

Sorry to hear you've had issues communicating with Steffen. I've had a fair amount of email back and forth with him over the past year. At times completely smooth, while at other times quite puzzling. I've come to conclude a couple of things. First, his command of the English language is only passable (his wife's being far better). He seems to have a decent grasp of vocabulary but not so much when it comes to grammar such as sentence composition. Germanic languages are structured quite differently than English which could account for some of that. Second, and there is just no way around this, he is sort of a whacky dude (and I dig that about him). As such he has some quirks and reservation to communicate that at times seem oddly placed from my perspective. One thing he has shared with me is his reluctance to give European kite competitors any fodder to be used against him. I suspect he has some history in that respect, so that may account for his lack of desire to share some specifics with you. I could be totally off on that.

He has treated me very well and seems open and appreciative of sincere feedback. I hope your interactions with him remain solid. I'm sure he wants your kite in tip-top shape. Good luck Lunchbox!

ssayre - 5-2-2016 at 08:27 AM

he will respond. He is a wacky dude just like us. :thumbup:

lunchbox - 5-2-2016 at 11:50 AM

I should clarify...

He's actually quite good at responding. Every time I've sent him an email he's responded to me the following day (time difference).

However, he's hasn't answered some of my questions regarding: What type of line are you using, what strength, what is the length of the main line and bridles, do you sell replacement bridles, what kind of knot are you using to tie the bridles and main line together, etc.

I was only asking because I wanted to fix my kite the right way the first time.

After reading what Windstruck mentioned, it makes a little more sense...geez, hopefully he doesn't think I want to steal his design

I also thought there might be a language aspect to it as well.

No matter....love the kites and am planning to buy a few more. And I do consider his customer service to be really good as he does seem to really care about helping me...just thought it was odd that he didn't answer my questions even after I asked them repeatable.

Quote:

Windstruck - 5-2-2016 at 01:18 PM

@lunchbox - your back and forth with Steffen seems in complete alignment with mine; glad to hear that. One other thing to consider: you have what appears to be a real command of knot terminology, something he may lack entirely. I don't think it goes hand in hand that a "kite guy" (even an extreme one to the point of being an inventor) is necessarily a "knot guy". I happen to be sort of a knot guy and even bought myself a hardcover addition of the knot lover's bible for Christmas; Ashley's Book of Knots) but I've come to know just how few true knot guys there are out there. I know my double sheet bend with my eyes closed, but will have to get out The Good Book to look up the Zeppelin.

Add this to a language barrier and I bet even if he does know the German name for a knot he likely has no clue what to call it in English. I doubt sincerely that he suspects you of espionage; rather I suspect he just doesn't give out too many details as a matter of established habit.

ssayre - 5-2-2016 at 01:28 PM

Ah glad to hear you've entered the knot and spliced loop obsession phase of your kiting career Steve. I too had to look up the Zeppelin. This is a phase that only the most serious enter and a right of passage in my opnion :D. I think your probably right about Steffen.

Windstruck - 5-2-2016 at 01:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Ah glad to hear you've entered the knot and spliced loop obsession phase of your kiting career Steve. I too had to look up the Zeppelin. This is a phase that only the most serious enter and a right of passage in my opnion :D. I think your probably right about Steffen.

Not so much an obsession as a fond journey down memory lane. As a kid my dad and I used to sit on the living room rug together and tie knots. He'd give me assignments to come up with "the right tool for the job" for some particular task and I'd have to research what the best knot and rope solution would be for the application. I then had to get that sort of rope from his workroom and tie the knot for him. He didn't have the Ashley book but rather some other smaller book with sort of cool hand drawings, but I had worked at a summer camp in college that used the Ashley book so I was sort of combining the two memories into one.

That being said, I do take pride in tieing the right knot at the right time, but I'm really just a rookie that enjoys the craft. Much like my kiting skills actually. :cool:

ssayre - 5-2-2016 at 01:43 PM

that's cool you were taught at an early age. I couldn't tie a proper square knot before kiting and if it wasn't for YouTube, I still wouldn't. Knots seem easy to forget. I was into it last winter and have forgotten most of them again. I need the Ashly book. I was t aware of it.

Windstruck - 5-2-2016 at 02:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

that's cool you were taught at an early age. I couldn't tie a proper square knot before kiting and if it wasn't for YouTube, I still wouldn't. Knots seem easy to forget. I was into it last winter and have forgotten most of them again. I need the Ashly book. I was t aware of it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0385040253/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid...

lunchbox - 8-2-2016 at 05:35 PM

So Steffen never answered my questions regarding knots and such....

...but....

...he is sending me a new 'V' line with instructions.

Definitely cool of him to do it because I was at fault. I also asked how much it was and was willing to pay for it. So this was a nice surprise. :thumbup:

Windstruck - 9-2-2016 at 04:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lunchbox

So Steffen never answered my questions regarding knots and such....

...but....

...he is sending me a new 'V' line with instructions.

Definitely cool of him to do it because I was at fault. I also asked how much it was and was willing to pay for it. So this was a nice surprise. :thumbup:

Yup, that's Steffen for ya. As I mentioned, he wants you to have your kite in tip-top shape. He understands well the concept of earning loyalty. I hope the install goes well.

bigE123 - 9-2-2016 at 04:24 AM

:thumbup:

Nice one, a result I'd say, good to see proper customer support.

Prussik - 9-2-2016 at 09:02 AM

Customer support is no justification for unethical and possibly illegal tax collection scam.

rdcrawford - 16-2-2016 at 07:01 PM

I'd also look at Twin-Line USA for any cordage that you can dream up. All my bridles lines and flying lines I get from them. Also John is a great knot man, I'm not too terrible myself but I usually have to see the arrangement before I can figure out what knot to use.