Power Kite Forum

Can this mod be done on a Ozone Turbo bar ??

dangerdan - 17-2-2016 at 11:08 AM

I bought a Ozone Turbo bar last year for my HQ Toxic. To apply the brakes I have to pull the bar towards me. Can I make any mods to the bar so it works like a depower bar with brake applied by pushing the bar away from me.

markite - 17-2-2016 at 12:22 PM

Hey Ralph
On most kites with de-power and a bar (many foils, arcs, LEIs) the top lines/power lines are going to the centre of the bar that you are then hooked to with the chicken loop. Then outside lines on the bar go to the brake lines or lower bridle on the kite. Some kite will fly and steer fairly good off top lines only (like a foil if you remove bottom flying lines), but when those lines top to the centre of the bar it is the pivot point of the bar so turning the bar doesn't give any steering input on top lines. Bottom lines are where you get more steering input and also brake input as you are changing the angle of attack or pulling the back end of the kite down. So you are almost always pulling to apply brake and is also adding power. So people that have depowerable foils that they like to fly trimmed so de-powered and have rear lines slack and then also flying with the bar out a lot will have really sloppy steering because they don't have rear line input. The answer there is to trim better so you have some rear line tension and pull in to steer - or you can add an extension to your front to take up some of that slack if you don't change your flying style.

that doesn't answer your question on the turbo bar but I'm just saying most pull into apply brake
Mark

Windstruck - 17-2-2016 at 01:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by dangerdan  
I bought a Ozone Turbo bar last year for my HQ Toxic. To apply the brakes I have to pull the bar towards me. Can I make any mods to the bar so it works like a depower bar with brake applied by pushing the bar away from me.


One way this reversal issue has been tackled is with a pulley down at the chicken loop with the Born-Kite LongStar bar. This can be seen starting at about 7:25 into the video pasted here. I'm not saying this is a great solution (in fact, I don't really care to fly FB kites this way) but it does do what you are getting at if I understand your question correctly.

dangerdan - 17-2-2016 at 01:30 PM

Thanks Windstruck. I had to slow the video to 1/4 speed to see that. Thats an option I'm going to try.

dangerdan - 17-2-2016 at 01:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by markite  
Hey Ralph
On most kites with de-power and a bar (many foils, arcs, LEIs) the top lines/power lines are going to the centre of the bar that you are then hooked to with the chicken loop. Then outside lines on the bar go to the brake lines or lower bridle on the kite. Some kite will fly and steer fairly good off top lines only (like a foil if you remove bottom flying lines), but when those lines top to the centre of the bar it is the pivot point of the bar so turning the bar doesn't give any steering input on top lines. Bottom lines are where you get more steering input and also brake input as you are changing the angle of attack or pulling the back end of the kite down. So you are almost always pulling to apply brake and is also adding power. So people that have depowerable foils that they like to fly trimmed so de-powered and have rear lines slack and then also flying with the bar out a lot will have really sloppy steering because they don't have rear line input. The answer there is to trim better so you have some rear line tension and pull in to steer - or you can add an extension to your front to take up some of that slack if you don't change your flying style.

that doesn't answer your question on the turbo bar but I'm just saying most pull into apply brake
Mark


So if I understand the bold lettering, the brakes are applied when I pull in on the Ozone Turbo bar not the depower bar.

ssayre - 17-2-2016 at 01:49 PM

just thinking out loud. Would it be possible for you to try hooking the power lines to the brake leaders on the bar and brake lines to power? You would have huge bar pressure with fb but it might do what you want. I'm not recommending that but might be fun to experiment with in lightish wind.

pretty sure it wouldn't work well but who knows.

Demoknight - 17-2-2016 at 03:29 PM

When you push a bar out on a depower kite, you are releasing brakes, not adding brakes. You need to understand that a depower kite doesn't have brakes the same way that a fixed bridle kite has brakes. Depower kites have bridle or pulleys up near the kite that make the whole kite tilt forward and back when you pull the bar in or push it out. That is how it works. When you push a depower bar away from you, you are decreasing the pull, but that is because you are reducing the drag on the kite and it actually speeds up, not slows down.

The Ozone Turbo bar is already as close as you can modify a bar to get a fixed bridle kite to behave like a depower. If you tune the Turbo bar correctly for the kite you are flying, pulling the bar all the way in should tuck the tail of the kite just a little bit and slow it down some, while giving a little extra pull. If the bar is all the way out, the rear lines should have some droop to them and no tension on the brakes.

If you want a bar that behaves more like a depower, you need a new kite, not a new bar.

Windstruck - 17-2-2016 at 03:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
just thinking out loud. Would it be possible for you to try hooking the power lines to the brake leaders on the bar and brake lines to power? You would have huge bar pressure with fb but it might do what you want. I'm not recommending that but might be fun to experiment with in lightish wind.

pretty sure it wouldn't work well but who knows.


I thought about that too but I'm not too sure that would work well. Like you said, it would have the bar pressure of kiting unhooked from your harness, would it not? I think that could be why Steffen ended up with the pulley system to split the load between chicken loop and bar 50/50, that and to make the kite "depower" when pushing the bar forward similar to a traditional DP.

All theories are just that. Probably need to actually string things up and see what happens.

flyguy0101 - 17-2-2016 at 03:40 PM

Assuming you know this but just to be sure- When using the ozone turbo bar the "power lines" do go to the center and brakes to the outside- exactly the same as how you hook up a real depower. As was so well explained above get a new kite if you want depower not a bar- that kite was a lot of fun on handles and the bug. That said I used that bar on a flexi rage and it was really nice to add some trim and for me a more "normal" setup for hooking in
s

ssayre - 17-2-2016 at 03:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  
Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
just thinking out loud. Would it be possible for you to try hooking the power lines to the brake leaders on the bar and brake lines to power? You would have huge bar pressure with fb but it might do what you want. I'm not recommending that but might be fun to experiment with in lightish wind.

pretty sure it wouldn't work well but who knows.


I thought about that too but I'm not too sure that would work well. Like you said, it would have the bar pressure of kiting unhooked from your harness, would it not? I think that could be why Steffen ended up with the pulley system to split the load between chicken loop and bar 50/50, that and to make the kite "depower" when pushing the bar forward similar to a traditional DP.

All theories are just that. Probably need to actually string things up and see what happens.


Steve you are correct. The full force of the kite would be on your arms. It would not be a set up worth using in my suggested configuration.

markite - 17-2-2016 at 06:53 PM

okay now I get what you are thinking about.

It can be a little confusing when the term de-power is thrown into conversation when we aren't talking about depowerable kites or a bar for depowerable kites. We have to remember that we are talking about fixed bridle kites and putting them on a bar. The Turbo bar is designed to be a better bridge between handle control and the limited control you would have from lines attached straight to a bar. The way the bar is et up it adds input to turn using a combination of movement from both top and bottom lines. De-power doesn't come into it, it's more about being able to use a bar with a fixed bridle.
I think what you are getting at is making it more like flying a kite on a 3 line set up (or 4 lines that the bottom two come together to the centre) and in that configuration you are really flying like a two line kite with outside lines on the bar going to you upper bridles and all flying and steering is done from that. Then by pushing the bar out you are pushing the kite away from you but the bottom is connected to you via the chicken loop so that pulls the bottom applying brake. But this kind of bar set up doesn't give the same feel and reaction to the kite bridging the feel of handles - that's where the turbo comes in to get better control/feel. I can't see how you could change things around on it without changing how the bar works and some bars just add a lot more crap to get tangled.

dangerdan - 17-2-2016 at 07:42 PM

The only reason I started this topic was because I wanted to start using a depower kite on a bar using a buggy. I thought that the Ozone turbo bar and depower bar worked opposite to each other.

So let me re-phrase this.
With a fixed bridal kite on a Ozone Turbo bar, if I pull the bar towards me the kite will go down.
With a depower kite on a bar, if I pull the bar away from me the kite will go down.

Is that correct so far or do they function the same way.

hiaguy - 17-2-2016 at 08:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by dangerdan  
The only reason I started this topic was because I wanted to start using a depower kite on a bar using a buggy. I thought that the Ozone turbo bar and depower bar worked opposite to each other.

So let me re-phrase this.
With a fixed bridal kite on a Ozone Turbo bar, if I pull the bar towards me the kite will go down.
With a depower kite on a bar, if I pull the bar away from me the kite will go down.

Is that correct so far or do they function the same way.


Using the Turbo Bar on a fixed bridle kite, pulling in the bar can apply so much brake that the kite stalls and "reverses" down. This can also be accomplished by pulling in the "brake handle" (black strap).

With a depower bar on a depowerable kite, pushing out the bar decreases the angle of attack, which results in increased speed. It does not affect the "brakes". Pulling in the bar has a similar effect as the Turbo Bar in that it pulls on the trailing edge of the kite, but it alters the angle of the entire kite (using the additional B and C bridles and pulleys) resulting in decreased speed and increased power. When adjusted properly, this will not stall the kite. To actually pull enough on the trailing edge to stall/land the kite, a landing strap (equivalent to the brake handle on the Turbo Bar) is attached to the rear lines well above the end of the bar throw.

Edit:
Another way to sort out an answer is to fly them side by side to feel the difference. U2U me if you'd like to meet up.

Demoknight - 17-2-2016 at 11:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by dangerdan  
The only reason I started this topic was because I wanted to start using a depower kite on a bar using a buggy. I thought that the Ozone turbo bar and depower bar worked opposite to each other.

So let me re-phrase this.
With a fixed bridal kite on a Ozone Turbo bar, if I pull the bar towards me the kite will go down.
With a depower kite on a bar, if I pull the bar away from me the kite will go down.

Is that correct so far or do they function the same way.


No. A depower kite doesn't work like that. If you push the bar out, the kite speeds up, but the pull to your harness is reduced. If you pull the bar in, the kite slows down, but the pull is greatly increased. The only way to bring a depower kite down is to crash it, pull the safety release, or for some, they have a brake strap that you can pull beyond the point of stall and back the kite down the window just like a fixed bridle.

bigE123 - 18-2-2016 at 03:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
just thinking out loud. Would it be possible for you to try hooking the power lines to the brake leaders on the bar and brake lines to power? You would have huge bar pressure with fb but it might do what you want. I'm not recommending that but might be fun to experiment with in lightish wind.

pretty sure it wouldn't work well but who knows.


Speaking from experience DO NOT TRY AND REVERSE THE SET-UP!!!!

I did (in error) on my first attempt at using a Turbo on my 5m Beamer, the result, I lost control and was dragged across a field. No Tee-shirt, sunny day, I was on my front trying to roll on to my side to pull the release, OMG the ground was soooo hard. Early days in my flying career which as they say adds to life's rich tapestry of experience which means we can pass that on so beware.

dangerdan - 18-2-2016 at 08:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bigE123  
Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
just thinking out loud. Would it be possible for you to try hooking the power lines to the brake leaders on the bar and brake lines to power? You would have huge bar pressure with fb but it might do what you want. I'm not recommending that but might be fun to experiment with in lightish wind.

pretty sure it wouldn't work well but who knows.


Speaking from experience DO NOT TRY AND REVERSE THE SET-UP!!!!

I did (in error) on my first attempt at using a Turbo on my 5m Beamer, the result, I lost control and was dragged across a field. No Tee-shirt, sunny day, I was on my front trying to roll on to my side to pull the release, OMG the ground was soooo hard. Early days in my flying career which as they say adds to life's rich tapestry of experience which means we can pass that on so beware.


No worries. I will not reverse the setup

dangerdan - 18-2-2016 at 08:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdan  
The only reason I started this topic was because I wanted to start using a depower kite on a bar using a buggy. I thought that the Ozone turbo bar and depower bar worked opposite to each other.

So let me re-phrase this.
With a fixed bridal kite on a Ozone Turbo bar, if I pull the bar towards me the kite will go down.
With a depower kite on a bar, if I pull the bar away from me the kite will go down.

Is that correct so far or do they function the same way.


Using the Turbo Bar on a fixed bridle kite, pulling in the bar can apply so much brake that the kite stalls and "reverses" down. This can also be accomplished by pulling in the "brake handle" (black strap).

With a depower bar on a depowerable kite, pushing out the bar decreases the angle of attack, which results in increased speed. It does not affect the "brakes". Pulling in the bar has a similar effect as the Turbo Bar in that it pulls on the trailing edge of the kite, but it alters the angle of the entire kite (using the additional B and C bridles and pulleys) resulting in decreased speed and increased power. When adjusted properly, this will not stall the kite. To actually pull enough on the trailing edge to stall/land the kite, a landing strap (equivalent to the brake handle on the Turbo Bar) is attached to the rear lines well above the end of the bar throw.

Edit:
Another way to sort out an answer is to fly them side by side to feel the difference. U2U me if you'd like to meet up.


I understood that. Thanks
As for a meet up, I can't till it gets warmer as my wife is more mobile in the summer. Her knees are messed up and she requires my assistance to get around.

dangerdan - 18-2-2016 at 09:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdan  
The only reason I started this topic was because I wanted to start using a depower kite on a bar using a buggy. I thought that the Ozone turbo bar and depower bar worked opposite to each other.

So let me re-phrase this.
With a fixed bridal kite on a Ozone Turbo bar, if I pull the bar towards me the kite will go down.
With a depower kite on a bar, if I pull the bar away from me the kite will go down.

Is that correct so far or do they function the same way.


No. A depower kite doesn't work like that. If you push the bar out, the kite speeds up, but the pull to your harness is reduced. If you pull the bar in, the kite slows down, but the pull is greatly increased. The only way to bring a depower kite down is to crash it, pull the safety release, or for some, they have a brake strap that you can pull beyond the point of stall and back the kite down the window just like a fixed bridle.


Understood - What if a sudden gust wind came up while flying a depower kite and I couldn't get to the safety release or brake strap in time. With a fixed bridal kite I can let go of the handles or bar and let the brake strap on my wrist bring the kite down. How would I bring a out of control depower kite down in this situation.

Demoknight - 18-2-2016 at 09:27 AM

You just let the bar move out on its own and the gust will be handled. If the wind is too much for the size of kite you have up, then you hit your chicken loop safety that is always within reach right at your belly button.

Demoknight - 18-2-2016 at 09:39 AM

You NEVER want to use brakes on any kite during a gust. The exception to this is like you say letting go of the handles and letting the kite killers bring the kite down. That still does put a lot of strain on a fixed bridle kite and the brake lines are the weak point on every fixed bridle kite. On a depower kite, you have to pull the brake strap in so far to get it to back down and stall, and before that it will power up with quite a pull and possibly lift you off your feet. If I have my Speed parked at zenith over my head and I pull the brakes on to back it down, my feet are coming off the ground for at least a moment before the kite stalls and drops me suddenly.

The benefit of a depower kite is that they handle gusts and changes in wind speed better than fixed bridle kites. The first time you fly one you will get the "Ahaa!" moment and understand. Usually if a gust hits you while riding a depower, you just keep light pressure on the bar and the bar will try to pull away from you. You can either let the bar go, or keep your hands on the bar and allow it to pull your hands up a bit. This will change the angle of the kite and it will stop pulling as hard. I am having trouble finding a good example video for you, but I will keep looking and post one if I find it.

hiaguy - 18-2-2016 at 10:35 AM

Sorry to state the obvious Ralph; I understand, and know that you'll be out with us when you can. Just reminding you that the offer is still there.

Jeff - a.k.a. bigkid - has an AQR (Automatic Quick Release) that works in a buggy. No worry about a gust-induced OBE 'cause the AQR simply releases the strop or chicken loop.

Based on my early testing - I can't wait to fly "just a little bit" overpowered, knowing that my ass won't leave the buggy :wee:

If you're flying static and hooked-in, you have to face the possibility that airtime is likely. Knowing that "all you have to do is pull the safety" is different from actually being able to do so while you're being lifted off the ground.

Just my two cents worth.

dangerdan - 18-2-2016 at 04:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
You NEVER want to use brakes on any kite during a gust. The exception to this is like you say letting go of the handles and letting the kite killers bring the kite down. That still does put a lot of strain on a fixed bridle kite and the brake lines are the weak point on every fixed bridle kite. On a depower kite, you have to pull the brake strap in so far to get it to back down and stall, and before that it will power up with quite a pull and possibly lift you off your feet. If I have my Speed parked at zenith over my head and I pull the brakes on to back it down, my feet are coming off the ground for at least a moment before the kite stalls and drops me suddenly.

The benefit of a depower kite is that they handle gusts and changes in wind speed better than fixed bridle kites. The first time you fly one you will get the "Ahaa!" moment and understand. Usually if a gust hits you while riding a depower, you just keep light pressure on the bar and the bar will try to pull away from you. You can either let the bar go, or keep your hands on the bar and allow it to pull your hands up a bit. This will change the angle of the kite and it will stop pulling as hard. I am having trouble finding a good example video for you, but I will keep looking and post one if I find it.


Thats great information Demoknight and thanks to all for responding.

Demoknight - 19-2-2016 at 11:08 AM

I would never pull a safety when I am off the ground. That is basically guaranteeing that you won't be able to come back down on your terms. If you get lofted by a kite, the main thing to remember is to keep the kite flying back and forth over your head. That will help make sure you come back down slowly. I have never gotten air more than 20 feet, so my advice ends there, but the most important thing is to keep the kite moving and don't let it overfly behind you.

markite - 19-2-2016 at 11:50 AM

once you get using a depowerable kite vs the fixed bridle you'll take a short time to get the feel for it - it takes a little longer to wrap your head around what size kite to use or what conditions you can use that kite in. Around here the vast majority of gusts you'll encounter are well within the range of normal feel on the kite and it's often those gusts we are looking for to go faster (and in those cases we do pull in on the bar looking for more - but a balance between a bit more power and killing speed). If we are out in 30 km wind with a gust to 45, or even going out in 50km with gust to 65km that's not a big deal, it's when you get 20 with a gust to 40-45 and nothing and a gust etc that is tougher. With high wind you have a kite selected for high wind that will take more but way harder when you have lighter spotty gusty wind because you can go from nicely powered to underpowered to overpowered. Those are the days that experience will either tell you this is going to be a crap day of battling a kite and wait for a better day or be prepared for those conditions and fly accordingly.
It's usually only in much higher wind days that we'll get the gusts that could lift you but those are days beyond the conditions that you'll be riding in. Granted there are times when you could be lifted but usually not gust related. It's important to have good kite position as well in those conditions or riding higher winds. A couple of weeks ago i was out with a friend on the ice buggy and I watched him always flying with the kite high and he was saying the wind was strong for the kite and harder to get upwind - but if you look at an imaginary line describing an arc of the wind window that a kite travels on, right away between having the kite low vs high your kite will be a little more forward in the wind window being low. That helps drive you up wind, you'll go faster and the more upwind you can go then there is less of that upward lift and lofting potential. Also it's good to keep the kite low and if overpowered you can turn down a couple of feet to the ground rather than send it upward.
Once to get riding de-power you'll realize that even powered up you can simply push the bar out an arms length and point upwind more and ride the gust out if it's that extreme....and then sometimes if you have the room you just might so "yah baby!" angle downwind and pull in that bar and put the hammer down!