Power Kite Forum - Why use stainless steel ?

Why use stainless steel ?

dangerdan - 16-5-2016 at 05:18 PM

I had a discussion with my brother-in law about welding up a stainless steel buggy. He asked why not use chrome moly tubing as its lighter and stronger than stainless. The only reason I could think of was that stainless is more resistant to salt/corrosion.
Any thoughts on this ?

WELDNGOD - 16-5-2016 at 05:40 PM

Chrome-moly has no resistance to rust. And it's not a racecar, so OSS (ordinary strength steel)
would do fine instead of SS.

dangerdan - 16-5-2016 at 05:43 PM

Good to know , thanks WELDNGOD

Randy - 16-5-2016 at 06:41 PM

Just a what if - but do they ever use carbon fiber?

WELDNGOD - 16-5-2016 at 06:51 PM

I think the Euro guys have made some axles and other parts already ,but seriously high dollar.

RedSky - 16-5-2016 at 06:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Just a what if - but do they ever use carbon fiber?

There was this from a few years back. Its not entirely carbon fibre though. Here's a link http://popeyethewelder.com/types-of-kite-buggy/the-most-adva...

Blitzhound - 16-5-2016 at 07:22 PM

I have been considering making my own frame as well. I am strongly considering using Chromoly. Its strength to weight ratio is much higher then standard mild steel. But...weldngod is right. There is little to no rust resistance. But it's not any less resistant than mild steel and could be fixed with a can of rustolium or a good powder coat. Also keep in mind that chromoly doesn't weld the same as mild or stainless. So if you don't know what your doing you're going to run into issues with cold cracking or stress fractures whatever you want to call it. It's not hard you just have to know what you're doing.

BeamerBob - 16-5-2016 at 07:50 PM

I like not having anything on my buggy that can rust chip or peel. I wouldn't give up that convenience.

Blitzhound - 17-5-2016 at 12:23 AM

I'm in full agreement Bob! That's why I've been looking into possibly titanium tubing. It's not as crazy as it sounds. I have to find a supplier for the titanium in small quantities.

Chook - 17-5-2016 at 02:53 AM

I use galvanized tube and pipe where ever possible for my buggy's and also my land yachts I build. True not as maintenance free but a hell of a lot cheaper and I'm not heart broken when I have to cut or modify them down the track. A spray with cold galvanized paint from a spray pack after welding and this keeps the corrosion at bay.
Open ended tubes are just given a squirt every time they are assembled with CRC or WD40.

I use them on a salt lake that is 24 times more saline than seawater. :o
A simple rinse down with the hose (not on the lawn or it kills it) or fresh water in a pump up garden sprayer, is all I do at the end of the day. A bit of WD40 here and there works fine. I use "Copper coat" or "Never seize" before fitting wheels to axles to keep the rust and condensation controlled.

Even 316 stainless tarnishes in these conditions and spots of rust eventfully show up in the stainless welds on the manufactured craft we have here.

Blitzhound - 17-5-2016 at 04:20 AM

I don't know if the titanium idea will ever come to light. I have access to all the equipment I'd need and I'm pretty confident I have the know how. Just something I've been brain storming on for awhile now. The material isn't as expensive as you might think. But I have yet to find a dealer that handles small retail for it. Also...why not aluminum?do you think it would hold up to the abuse?

abkayak - 17-5-2016 at 05:20 AM

that carbon fibre monster is awesome...but you start making axles or down tubes w/ that stuff and nick or bang it id be worried about an unforeseen failure
i see dents in my SS axles that would not be kosher if it was CF...same as a helmet you shouldnt trust it so much after a good crash..talking pavement

WELDNGOD - 17-5-2016 at 05:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Blitzhound

Also...why not aluminum?do you think it would hold up to the abuse?

already done twice and it's tough as a tank..I used 5083 and 5086. Do a search for my old threads about building with alloy. Where are you to weld titanium at?

Wind_dog - 17-5-2016 at 08:34 AM

Blitzhound, Did you try Titanium Joe as a supplier?

Cheddarhead - 17-5-2016 at 10:58 AM

I built my own buggy from mild steel and chrome-moly. All tube stock is chromo and the rest is mild steel. I don't live anywhere close to saltwater and all my riding is on grass or frozen lakes so I simply painted it. I would've preferred powder coat to paint but much cheaper to just paint. I've had very few issues with chipping since I don't ride abrasive surfaces.

riffclown - 17-5-2016 at 11:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

Quote: Originally posted by Blitzhound

Also...why not aluminum?do you think it would hold up to the abuse?

already done twice and it's tough as a tank..I used 5083 and 5086. Do a search for my old threads about building with alloy. Where are you to weld titanium at?

I'll personally vouch for the toughness of WG's Aluminum work..

WELDNGOD - 17-5-2016 at 12:22 PM

:D

nate76 - 17-5-2016 at 12:58 PM

I always thought you could make a nice buggy out of Chromoly steel.

4130 Chromoly has been used since the dawn of aviation for making tube-and-fabric planes like the J-3 Cub, Maule, and all sorts of bush planes designed for abuse. And its easier to work with than stainless is.

Seems like with a good zinc or powder coating and decent care, it would be just fine.

WELDNGOD - 17-5-2016 at 01:37 PM

I think using chromoly is a bit of overkill,OSS is plenty strong enough. The extra strength is going to come at a cost. You will need 8018 electrode and use the proper weld procedures. Or you could just get some mild steel and weld it with 70S or 7018 that is available everywhere and pretty cheap. If you are just rolling back and forth you just don't need that much strength. Now if you are going to jump or ride 4wd style THEN it might be worth it.

If aluminum can do it ,so can OSS.

Here is the green buggy that Riff now has ,airborne in a OBE??? I don't think that is what it would be called though. I was hit by a gust so big it picked me and the buggy off the ground and barrel rolled .I was doin around 40 when it hit.

1st OBE pkf.jpg - 6kB

3shot - 17-5-2016 at 02:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by riffclown

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

Quote: Originally posted by Blitzhound

Also...why not aluminum?do you think it would hold up to the abuse?

already done twice and it's tough as a tank..I used 5083 and 5086. Do a search for my old threads about building with alloy. Where are you to weld titanium at?

I'll personally vouch for the toughness of WG's Aluminum work..

I have seen the green.... and it's mean!!:evil: :thumbup:

WELDNGOD - 17-5-2016 at 02:28 PM

You have also seen Mello Yello the ALUMABUG that converts into THE ALUMABYK !

3shot - 17-5-2016 at 04:27 PM

Yes. The yellow is baddass!

awindofchange - 17-5-2016 at 06:23 PM

I have made two buggies out of chromemoly, 4130. It is very nice to work with and had no problems or issues with it. It is more expensive than OSS and takes a little more process to weld but really, the cost is not that much different than stainless. It is a lit lighter though. I powder coated the ones I made.

Blitzhound - 17-5-2016 at 10:02 PM

Very nice. Nice looking aluminum bug WG. To answer your question. One of the companies. I work for has a set up for welding titanium. I have only done it a few times myself. But I know most the guys that weld the stuff on a regular basis. I'm sure they would be happy to help me. I have not looked into titanium joes. I have seen it on the Internet but I have yet to call them.
It maybe completely impractical. Even unnecessary. But who cares about practicality or necessity? It's more for the challenge to see if I can do it or not. Aluminum could be fun. I know that at some point I want to attempt to build my own buggy. But I don't want to build just a simple old cookie cutter bug. What's the fun in that!?

John Holgate - 18-5-2016 at 03:01 AM

I made an aluminum bug pretty cheaply - I bought and cut all the bits and had the alloy supplier do the welding (the fork is the original Vmax fork). It's been great and no problems after 1000 odd km or so.

http://files.extremekites.com.au/gallery/monthly_2015_06/lar...

WELDNGOD - 18-5-2016 at 03:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Blitzhound

Very nice. Nice looking aluminum bug WG. To answer your question. One of the companies. I work for has a set up for welding titanium. I have only done it a few times myself. But I know most the guys that weld the stuff on a regular basis. I'm sure they would be happy to help me. I have not looked into titanium joes. I have seen it on the Internet but I have yet to call them.
It maybe completely impractical. Even unnecessary. But who cares about practicality or necessity? It's more for the challenge to see if I can do it or not. Aluminum could be fun. I know that at some point I want to attempt to build my own buggy. But I don't want to build just a simple old cookie cutter bug. What's the fun in that!?

sounds familiar...

There is an awesome feeling cruising on a one of a kind that you built.:D :cool:

AudereEng - 18-5-2016 at 08:29 AM

I have purchased small amounts of prototyping material from Ti Joe - they were ok
But I am not a big fan of making everything of Ti ...

Blitzhound - 18-5-2016 at 02:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AudereEng

I have purchased small amounts of prototyping material from Ti Joe - they were ok
But I am not a big fan of making everything of Ti ...

I probably won't be a fan either by the time I'm done but...I only wanna do it once haha!

Bladerunner - 18-5-2016 at 03:57 PM

I don't know squat about steel but think a titanium axle would be a great thing? If I'm right titanium should be near impossible to bend? Or is that just break proof and it doesn't have memory?

Somehow the idea of a titanium buggy seem unique and cool to me?

For inspiration you should look at the " overkill buggy " made by screwyfits and his Cousin. There is a quick shot of it at about 14 seconds on here: https://vimeo.com/91840693

BeamerBob - 19-5-2016 at 08:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

I don't know squat about steel but think a titanium axle would be a great thing? If I'm right titanium should be near impossible to bend? Or is that just break proof and it doesn't have memory?

Somehow the idea of a titanium buggy seem unique and cool to me?

For inspiration you should look at the " overkill buggy " made by screwyfits and his Cousin. There is a quick shot of it at about 14 seconds on here: https://vimeo.com/91840693

Blade, I agree on the titanium. I love unique but also like functional. It would be fun to discuss that my buggy was made out of titanium but I can't imagine any functional benefit from it. I've added extra weight to my Apexx and titanium would be much lighter than the same buggy in stainless.

AudereEng - 19-5-2016 at 10:18 AM

Are you plan on using Ti 6Al 4V?

In case anyone wants to know some of the issues you would be signing up for with Ti.
https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/titani...

Blitzhound - 19-5-2016 at 01:12 PM

Yes...Grade 5 Ti tubing which is 6AL 4V. Thank you for the link. Very informative. I'm fully aware of the issues and complications involved with using Ti. I understand it's not going to be easy. If it was easy everyone would do it. Haha! Doesn't mean I'm not going to try.

abkayak - 19-5-2016 at 06:24 PM

Unovtainium or gtfo

WELDNGOD - 19-5-2016 at 06:29 PM

you mean unobtainium?

ssayre - 19-5-2016 at 06:36 PM

metal nerds. :D

abkayak - 19-5-2016 at 07:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

you mean unobtainium?[/rquote

Yea...lotta beers, thanks Howard, Midnite Paddler happening tonight

Blitzhound - 19-5-2016 at 07:59 PM

Anyone know of a reliable supplier for unobtainium? And or Kryptonite? Also where should I mount the flux capacitor? I was thinking on the goose neck!

AudereEng - 20-5-2016 at 10:43 AM

Just do not forget the tubing insides when you weld your frame up.

In the past (not buggy related) I pulled a vacuum (a cheap 2 stage refrigeration type pump) with heating (induction) to remove the water vapor then back filled the tube with Argon during the actual welding.
Probably overkill for a buggy frame but it worked really well.

The nice part is one look will tell you if you have most types of welding problems...
Ti should make a very nice buggy

Blitzhound - 20-5-2016 at 11:34 AM

The place I was planning to do the fabrication at has a large sand blasting booth they have converted to an argon shielding booth. I should be able to do most of the smaller pieces in the booth. But that is a really good idea for the welds I'm going to have to do outside in normal atmosphere. I'll use shielding cups for the outside and I'll do an evacuation and argon on the inside. I like that. Thanks for the advice Audere.