Power Kite Forum - Got Her In the Air

Got Her In the Air

DialedN_07 - 20-8-2016 at 03:39 PM

Not sure this is the correct area to post photos?

Anyway. Just got my Prism Tensor 3.1 this past week and finally got a chance to get her in the air today. Due to low winds I only stayed out about an hour, but enjoyed pulling the 3.1 around on the handles and learning more about how to adjust this kite for low winds.
It was the first and last time I will be able to fly this kite as I've already arranged a trade for the 4.2, but just had to fly this one at least once.

Hard to beat flying at the mall.

soliver - 20-8-2016 at 04:43 PM

:lol:

saw the title of the thread and thought you let your girlfriend or spouse to fly your kite and she got lofted

Congrats, ...though we often recommend you start with and keep a 3m. It's a good way to learn the intricacies of kiting and of the window with posing a major risk of bodily harm. Once you have learned the ropes with the 3m you buy other sizes to suite various conditions. Typically a next step after a 3m is a 5m, and the 3m becomes your high wind kite or the one you hand to a friend who wants to try it out.

DialedN_07 - 20-8-2016 at 04:52 PM

My wife flew today for a few minutes and got frustrated and quit. She was having difficulties with the low wind conditions and keeping the kite in a constant pirouette. Shes used to the snappy and responsoveness of the 170 coupled with higher winds at the beach.
I toyed with the bridle adjustments to help her and found some improvements for conditions, but by that point she made up her mind and went to find some shade. Kite flew about 20% better by a 1 knot on the line adjustment. Glad to see the kite has this flexibility buikt in to it. The Synapse (understandibly) has no adjustments except knots on the wrist strap.

I learned on dual line stunt kites for many years. Then had the Prism Synapse 170. So I keep the 170 for high wind static/stunt flying. Moving to the 4.2 for basic use and then plan to (maybe) move up from there.

I will always keep her (my wife) safe, but I can promise you she will get in the air with the 4.2. She doesn't back down from winds and actually loves the pull!

Brant - 20-8-2016 at 05:03 PM

Random question of the day:

Why are the flags at half mast today?

Or am I just blatantly ignorant of something here?

DialedN_07 - 20-8-2016 at 05:41 PM

Interesting you ask. All at half mast at WM but full staff at White House.

I did notice the difference.

Brant - 20-8-2016 at 05:47 PM

Never mind, I found it. Silly me, I googled flags at half mast and today's date and nothing popped up. Because it's from the 18th to the 22nd. So the 20th didn't post any results. In honour of the victims in the attack in Baton Rouge.

Bladerunner - 21-8-2016 at 09:24 AM

I am kind of curious about why you decided to go to the 4.2 before mastering the 3.1? Please explain because I often wonder why beginner make this choice.

The 4.2 will not fly any great amount earlier. It will leave you over powered noticeably earlier. Putting you in a position that you must choose between packing up or flying over powered. It won't turn as fast and won't be as smart a kite to introduce new people to the sport. Learning how to take advantage of the faster speed + turning of the 3m will make you a superior pilot and allow you to fly the 3m in as low of wind as the 4m.

I am in the same camp as Spenser. A 3m ( ish ) kite is the ideal size for learning and to hold on to as a high wind kite + trainer. Next best step is something around 5m. I personally feel like the 4m size is made to satisfy people who are using the kites for traction and want something between 3 and 5 because they are after the pulling power. Re-sale of a 4m is just that bit harder than 3.

None of what I say is meant to put you or your choices down. As long as you are flying and have the support of your partner you are doing great! The nice thing about having you partner fly with you is that She will often be happy with one size smaller than you. Not to mention having Her $upport when $pending.

While you can adjust the flying characteristics slightly with the knots you are still flying a Fixed Bridle kite. The wind range will still remain very limited. This is why a proper quiver of FB kites is at least 3 when you can get by with a minimum 2 Depower kites.

DialedN_07 - 21-8-2016 at 07:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

I am kind of curious about why you decided to go to the 4.2 before mastering the 3.1? Please explain because I often wonder why beginner make this choice.

The 4.2 will not fly any great amount earlier. It will leave you over powered noticeably earlier. Putting you in a position that you must choose between packing up or flying over powered. It won't turn as fast and won't be as smart a kite to introduce new people to the sport. Learning how to take advantage of the faster speed + turning of the 3m will make you a superior pilot and allow you to fly the 3m in as low of wind as the 4m.

I am in the same camp as Spenser. A 3m ( ish ) kite is the ideal size for learning and to hold on to as a high wind kite + trainer. Next best step is something around 5m. I personally feel like the 4m size is made to satisfy people who are using the kites for traction and want something between 3 and 5 because they are after the pulling power. Re-sale of a 4m is just that bit harder than 3.

None of what I say is meant to put you or your choices down. As long as you are flying and have the support of your partner you are doing great! The nice thing about having you partner fly with you is that She will often be happy with one size smaller than you. Not to mention having Her $upport when $pending.

While you can adjust the flying characteristics slightly with the knots you are still flying a Fixed Bridle kite. The wind range will still remain very limited. This is why a proper quiver of FB kites is at least 3 when you can get by with a minimum 2 Depower kites.

I actually really appreciate your response and inquiry. I saw your post right before we headed home today, but didn't have time to draft a response before we needed to drive back, so I've had a majority of the day to think about it. I've gone back and forth on what to do. I think you have a really valid point about the 4.2 and the goals that this kite would accomplish. The 3.1 would be more versatile in multiple ways. Bridge a gap between the small 170 and my next logical choice in kite which would be 5m or slightly larger. My biggest reason for REALLY being concerned about going to the 4.2 is that I may try to jump TOO far on my next purchase. A 3.1 to a 5m is a logical step, but a 4.2 to a 5m is a smaller jump, and I may try to convince myself to go bigger than I really should.

But I'm jumping back and forth about another few details.
First - I'm not looking at getting the 4.2 for static flying and stunts. I'm wanting to move towards ATB things at home and at the beach. With soft sand conditions and low winds at home, I'm concerned that the 3.1 won't allow me to have the proper pull to actually learn to move to this sport. Also, I'm 6'3 205 lbs athletic build so I'm definitely what you would consider larger and consider that I can handle a bit more power.

Also, I live in a severely wind deprived area, where I rarely get much over 5mph winds. Not saying the 4.2 will make a huge difference, but I'll take what I can get so I can fly and not have to wait between beach trips.

As far as "mastering" the 3.1.....I realize this comment will sound a bit snooty, but I'd really like to understand more about what you mean by that. I'm not dismissing it because I think that I honestly may have a different interpretation than what I should.

I've been flying dual line kites for over 10 years and can basically fly them with my eyes closed. Admittadly, I've never done any of the high level tricks that I've seen in some youtube videos, but those types of maneuvers don't translate over to foils anyway.
I'm not breezing past the differences between 4 line and 2 line kites, but what is there to master? You have the brake lines which can remove some power and also allow the kite to hover within the wind window. Different angles of the handles to allow for hard pull turns, and also propeller type turns. I'm not sure how long one has to operate a 4 line kite with a proper understanding of the purpose of each line to say that I have or have not 'mastered' a kite.

Re: My wife....she fully supports this kite thing, but DOES NOT support the crazy prices that some kites demand! lol. I'm constantly looking for steals and deals so I can get in under the "excusable" $ threshold. Undoubtedly she will be willing to fly them once I get them, but I have to ju$$$$tify the purchase first.

abkayak - 22-8-2016 at 05:55 AM

everybody needs a 3m...jusayin

ssayre - 22-8-2016 at 06:36 AM

He might be the only one I've ever heard of that wants to buy a second Tensor :D

The world is a big place. I recommend keeping the 3 and exploring a little further on the second kite

DialedN_07 - 22-8-2016 at 06:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak

everybody needs a 3m...jusayin

I wish I could have them all

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

He might be the only one I've ever heard of that wants to buy a second Tensor :D

The world is a big place. I recommend keeping the 3 and exploring a little further on the second kite

What issues have you heard or seen from the Tensor?

ssayre - 22-8-2016 at 07:05 AM

If atb is the goal, keep the 3m and buy a depower next. Anything else is a waste of money.

Tensor is overpriced low ar kite. Much better deals in that category.

ssayre - 22-8-2016 at 10:53 AM

I overstated my opinion. People can and do use fixed bridle for landboard but depower would definitely be worth looking into. Broader range per size and being able to dump some power or gain some power is good in challenging wind and surface conditions.

DialedN_07 - 22-8-2016 at 10:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I overstated my opinion. People can and do use fixed bridle for landboard but depower would definitely be worth looking into. Broader range per size and being able to dump some power or gain some power is good in challenging wind and surface conditions.

You guys are killing me!
I was 100% on board with making this trade and I called the guy and we are delaying for 1 more day.

I see all the validity in keeping a 3m'ish kite as a staple in the quiver. But I'm just not making the connection of why it's such a big deal to go from the 3.1 to the 4.2.
Is it going to be THAT much more sluggish and/or powerful to really say it's not worth considering the trade?

abkayak - 22-8-2016 at 11:10 AM

you will put up the 3m when you wont fly the 4...i know it seams stupid, but nobody need a 4...you only want them
you need a 3

DialedN_07 - 22-8-2016 at 11:16 AM

So here's the deal. This guy has the 4.2, he's a bit older and said he won't fly it because he has problems controlling it from time to time (pull). We were going to do an even trade with no $ exchanged. We both pay our own shipping.

BUT he uses his line set and handle/bar conversions with other kites. Basically, we were only going to swap bags and kites, not bars/lines, etc.

If I were to offer to buy his 4.2 KITE ONLY, no lines, no bag, nothing....what would you guys offer? I can easily fit the 3.1 and 4.2 in my bag and this way I can fly them side by side on the same handle/line set and determine what I want to use, if I always fly one and the other never leaves the bag, I'll just sell the extra one.

What $$$ would you offer for that? I'm thinking when you strip the price of flying lines, brake lines, handles, kite killers, etc out of the equation, the kite itself gets pretty cheap.

I am very cheap, but buying this 4.2 is not going to put me in the straits by any means.

ssayre - 22-8-2016 at 11:34 AM

I did this when I started too. Completely focusing on kite size. The power a kite generates comes from the wind. Any size kite laying on the ground has the same amount of pull. My daughter flew my 8.5 meter kite when she was 12. Wind was 5ish. Point is there is no right size for someone, only right size kite for current conditions. Ultimately it doesn't matter, if you pursue traction kiting, you will need at least 3 kites to cover a decent range of conditions.

Price of kite without lines? don't know. whatever he will accept I suppose. I would buy it complete. Keep all attached and ready to go. You'll be happy you did. You'll just be buying another set of lines and handles down the road when you get sick of switching. Just thinking ahead for you to save some hassle.

edit: although, i wouldn't buy this one. I'd skip to a 5meter hornet or beamer. There's one on sale here somewhere I believe. Save some dough.

3shot - 22-8-2016 at 11:38 AM

Agreed. With FB kites, it is very nice having the kite all rigged up and ready to go. Especially at a used price.

abkayak - 22-8-2016 at 11:41 AM

<200$...because they are so damn ugly
you dont need that kite, you just want it..and dont want him to hurt himself

hiaguy - 22-8-2016 at 12:51 PM

I love watching these threads...
In this corner: a bunch of guys supplying their opinions, based on (frequently and usually) years of trial and error, and lots of dollars used to "get it right" ("right", of course, being completely subjective);
And in that corner: someone that's determined to retain the doubt that the other dudes must've missed something.

If only life were easy enough to cut to the chase, we wouldn't have these threads, and there would be more money in our (at least, my) pockets. Thanks for the entertainment - and don't get me wrong, I'm in the second corner. :rolleyes:

Seriously though... keep the 3.1 because it'll eventually become your back-up kite or the one you use to teach people with, or the one that lives in the trunk of your car for that emergency stop at the park. I have a 2-meter, 3-meter and 4-meter Hornet. The 2m has lots of stories to tell, and the 3m has hundreds (well, almost) of hours on it. The 4m has less than a dozen flights on it (but I'm too stubborn to sell it and break up the set).

And buy the extra line/handle set. Like ssayer and 3shot said: just trying to save you some hassle.

Oh, and buy a helmet. There's no fun in the "I told you so" on that one.

Bladerunner - 22-8-2016 at 03:32 PM

When I talk about getting more out of the 3.1 when you master it is that you can force a smaller, faster, lighter kite to fly in light winds.

Seed=Power. When your kite is speeding through the wind window it is not just seeing the wind speed but it's own traveling speed combined. The "apparent wind " is what you can learn to take advantage of.

When you are flying below the rated wind for the kite ( so it will not sit at zenith on it's own ) your wind window gets smaller. Being able to whip the kite around fast and do down loops helps correct things and keep the kite moving. Stop moving and you will lose apparent wind. The kite will then fall.

So .... by Master the kite I mean being able to milk every bit of power out of the low end and be able to handle the high end + by where you put the kite. To become " as one " with the kite and know what it is doing / going to do without even looking at it. Getting to this stage as a pilot will make including the board easy peasy ! 90% of this game is pilot skills.

P.S. AR means aspect ratio. Tensor is a low aspect kite = fat through the middle. It gives better stability but lower performance. A high aspect kite is longer and thinner. Faster = more lift / pull and higher performance / harder to control.

P.P.S. I'm going to really mess up your thinking now.

1st, I agree, keep the 3.1. The 4.2 will NOT give you the added power you will REALLY need to get moving on ATB in sub 10mph winds!

If you are going to have to deal with primarily low winds and ride ATB 10mph and less then you WILL eventually want a much larger kite. Minimum of 6m Fixed bridle. 10m-ish possibly if you want to jump.

While you can ride ATB with fixed bridle most people eventually end up using depower kites. The pull point / your center of gravity changes dramatically when you are flying unhooked with ape arms. Taking the power through your core via a harness is a much better set up. Hooking in to FB is sketchy. When I ( rarely ) fly FB stand up I ride hooked in unless I am pushing it. Either way you go you will benefit from learning to fly " hooked in " with a harness!

Depower kites require you to be hooked in to a harness to work. They have a QR ( quick release ) that makes this a bit safer. Being able to adjust the AOA ( angle of attack ) is a HOOJ advantage! It gives you a larger wind range in 1 kite + the ability to depower when you feel a gust coming on rather than get yarded down wind. To power up and boost bigger jumps.

I suggest you fly the heck out of that 3.1. Take some time to learn to fly it " dumbed down " on a bar and learn to control that bar 1 handed. Hooked in and unhooked. While you are mastering that kite ( doing so in low wind will make you a better pilot ) think HARD about your next purchase.
Do you want to jump? Stay earthbound? Go fast?
What kind of location will you ride at? Grass or hard pack sand?
What is the most common wind speed you have encountered during that time?

Quality used depower kites can be found at some pretty good prices. I am sure if you are patient you can find one at a comparable price to a new larger Tensor. Showing that to the wife may win her over?

Don't rush to switch kites and don't impulse buy. Run your choices through folks on here. We may not all agree but will all be trying to help you avoid spending money we have wasted through the learning curve.

:bigok:

DialedN_07 - 22-8-2016 at 04:30 PM

And here I was thinking that people were starting to turn against me! :P (only joking)

All great information. I'll start off by saying that my primary goal is to learn ATB so that when I go to our beach place I can cruise down the sand in the morning, down to the end of the inlet and cruise back up the inlet side of the island back to the house. I'm a speed freak. Bicycles, motorcycles, cars, etc. I'd lie if I said I didn't have interest in jumping, but honestly I'd rather go fast over a smooth surface than anything.

Depower setups are very cool. I see how they work and find it interesting how the flying lines are in the center and the "brake" actually turning lines are on the outside. I've watched hours and hours and hours of videos online regarding FB, Depower, LEI, and other types of kites.

I called off the trade today, so I'll be keeping the 3.1 but am already on the lookout for any steal I can find on here. (I actually missed one on a 5m PL this weekend).

But no rush. I'll get one when it comes along.

Like you said though, I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on a 5m FB kite, when I believe my ultimate goals will always lead me to a depower kite. I'm MUCH MUCH more less experienced on brands and size comparisons to FB kites in the depower range, so I'm sitting back, drinking my coffee and learning where I can.

Now I just need to get out of this windless wasteland that I live in (Fayetteville, NC) and make it back to the beach!!!

Bladerunner - 22-8-2016 at 05:08 PM

I did some edits as you were posting so you may want to re-read the whole mess.

You won't regret keeping the 3.1! The bar / handle combo is sweet for advancing to depower.

When you learn to do brake turns you will do less " push pull " steering with handles. Once you are good at them and can control the kite by brake turn only hold your handles like a bar and do them. Then think about how it will translate to depower. When you fly with the brakes off you are flying on the front lines = to bar out and all the power through your harness to your core. The kite flies fast through the window and far to the edge.
When you add brake only to one side it is = to turning the bar and kite on depower. ( sort of )
When you add brake evenly the kites will slow down through the wind window and sit farther back to the point it backs down. That is = pulling in the bar ( sort of ) . The only big difference is that with depower you change the length of your front and back lines right across the kite ( A,B,C bridles ). With handles you can only manipulate the back ( Z bridle ) row . Depower is a confusing term! Get your head around my explanation and transitioning to depower will come easier. It is better to think front lines / brake lines and how would I be applying these with my FB. The 2 basically react the same.
Don't expect to feel the true effect of depower until you are in motion. Then pulling the bar in changes the kites AOA, it drops back in the window and is like turning on the turbo. You can do this to a lesser degree with FB.

How hard packed is this beach? Can you ride a car on it? Can you ride a bike on it without sinking in ? You need that hard a beach at least. Only typically found on low tides with surf beaten beaches.

hiaguy - 22-8-2016 at 06:48 PM

OK guys - we've been lenient enough for long enough.
Here it comes...

Wait for it...

Only 49 days to go!

I can't believe that a trip to WBB hasn't been suggested yet! Fayetteville is only an 8-hour drive away :wee:

soliver - 23-8-2016 at 05:47 AM

If you're in NC, I'd recommend saving some Vacation time for May and come to the Jekyll Island Buggy Expo (JIBE) on Jekyll Island, GA. I'm right outside Atlanta and have come to the last 4 i think,... other people come from as far as Ontario, even Oregon... it is a PRIMO kiting spot for sure. http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=32036

hiaguy is referring to the Wildwood Buggy Bash, which I understand is awesome too. WBB is cool because they have a fall event too coming soon. I'd highly recommend getting to an event because you can learn a ton.

Good choice saving the 3m,... but don't get another Tensor if you buy another FB kite. Look at anything by Peter Lynn, Ozone, PKD, or Flexifoil... all good stuff. I agree with the others, if you are interested in Landboard, go depow,... but i will add this: if you are interested in speed, get a buggy... jusayin.

abkayak - 23-8-2016 at 06:54 AM

i learned landboard 3m fb, then harnessed, to a 5fb..to a depower
i think its a natural way to go...and go to WW if you can, it will make your winter way more productive

DialedN_07 - 23-8-2016 at 07:09 AM

Started doing some research late night last night and came across the HQ Apex V. Not wanting to spend anywhere near that amount of money, but notice that the Apex IV and III are a thing also. The 5.5m variant may suit my needs if I can find one in the next 6-9 months?

What say ye?

Soliver, not one of the kites you mentioned above...?

PS. If you guys come across one in the smaller size range on a depower on here or elsewhere, please let me know. I'm smart enough to snag a good deal and store it in the closet until I'm ready to use it.

abkayak - 23-8-2016 at 09:31 AM

a 5.5dp is kinda a high wind kite...your first dp should be more like an 8-12m it would get used more
although its easier to learn dp w/ something small...they wont develop the power to board with till the wind is up there (+/-20mph??)
imo.....anyone else??

Windstruck - 23-8-2016 at 10:53 AM

I'm not directly familiar the Apex in any generation, but Abk has it right on the wind range. DP kites generate a ton less pull per square meter than do comparably sized FBs. I wouldn't even consider pulling my 6m DP out of the bag until the wind was well over 20 mph and my 4m sits in reserve for those crazy 30+ days when I don't want to get shut out of flying. Haven't had one since buying it 6 months ago.

For standard use in the buggy, skis, ATB, etc, I'd also suggest going larger, something like 9m+. A 6m Peak2 has as much pull as an 8m Access and a 6m P1 or P2 may actually get used. I'd hate for you to get a great deal on a small DP only to have it sit eternally in waiting for just "that day". Keep in mind that "that day" is no day for a novice to be getting his feet wet (and his head bashed in).

Good luck!

Bladerunner - 23-8-2016 at 04:25 PM

The sizing of kites when comparing FB to DP can be very confusing until you have hands on experience.

While a 5m FB is a moderate wind kite a 5m depower is a very high wind kite. So high that they don't get used much. While you can force a 3m FB to fly in very low winds DP is not as efficient and will simply not fly. ( or needs to be large with $pecial fabric ) It is comforting to hear you think a 5m is a good starter size for depower but in fact you will want something much bigger for the low winds you describe.

Don't rush that second kite. Kites like Access and Apex are low AR kites. Good for staying earthbound and stable so good for learning but they purposely lack in boosting air. You just may want a medium aspect kite if you want to jump?

If speed is more your thrill than jumping then you just may get more joy from a buggy? I love all rides but a buggy satisfies the " need for speed " factor in many more locations than stand up riding offers me. Riding stand up and jumping are a real joy but the perfect combination of location and conditions is hard to find.

Thinking about these things while mastering your 3.1 will allow you to make a good choice for your location and your needs.

If by some chance you could get to Wildwood for their fall gathering the experience would be PRICELESS. A couple of days there and you will pick up experiences that will send you off with a clear understanding of all the different choices available. Boosting your progression and helping you make smart gear purchases down the road. An amazing bunch of people who will feel like family in short order!

ssayre - 23-8-2016 at 04:36 PM

Can't agree more with bladerunner. Buggy opens up so many more locations and videos don't do it justice. Way more fun than what you may think if you've never tried it.

soliver - 23-8-2016 at 07:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DialedN_07

What say ye?

Soliver, not one of the kites you mentioned above...?

Oh Cripes!... yes HQ makes great stuff as well!!! That's usually one of the names on the list that I neglected. For starter FB kites, you just about can't beat a good ole HQ Beamer!!!

In the world of Depow there are a few more players. HQ Apex (any generation) is supposed to be a great starter and one of the most affordable depower foils.

I would also recommend looking into a 6m Flysurfer Peak. The 6m Peak 1 is a great depower kite that is typically VERY affordable used and has a much wider wind range than your typical depower foil (because it's a single skin). I just recently was given one by a very generous benefactor and LOVE the thing... I've been flying FB kites for 5 years and now am super excited about all of the possibilities for me with my new to me 6m P1. P2's are supposed to be awesome too!

And one more thing about "going fast"... here's the great thing about buggying and going fast... you don't have to be doing that much speed to hit that "going fast" nerve. Moving at 25 mph may seem like nothing in your car, but when your butt is only 4 inches off the ground it feels like warp 10!... my current top speed is 28 mph and it felt like my pants were almost on fire.

DialedN_07 - 24-8-2016 at 06:23 AM

You guys and your buggies!
I get the idea and love the concept.....BUT....buying a friggin buggy is just about if not more expensive than buying a decent kite :o

I'm obviously ignorant on the subject, but can someone tell me why (WHAT SEEMS TO BE) a metal frame welded to two tires and a caster wheel in front costs so much cash?
I mean I can't find buggies for less than $700-$875 online.

NO WAY the wife will let that fly (<<<see what I did there???)

riffclown - 24-8-2016 at 08:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak

you will put up the 3m when you wont fly the 4...i know it seams stupid, but nobody need a 4...you only want them
you need a 3

I realize that I fly a bit differently than many of you but the 3m I have flies far less often than any other kite in my bag. I tend to fly the 2 the 4 and the 8.

abkayak - 24-8-2016 at 09:52 AM

riff...you are strange...thats ok :thumbup:

riffclown - 24-8-2016 at 11:10 AM

Just being honest. My avatar right now is my 4.5

ssayre - 24-8-2016 at 11:37 AM

gotta admit, 4m is the sweet size for my normal windy days and was my most used size when I had it. That's why I was quick to get a 4m now going back to fixed bridle.

hiaguy - 24-8-2016 at 12:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DialedN_07

You guys and your buggies!
I get the idea and love the concept.....BUT....buying a friggin buggy is just about if not more expensive than buying a decent kite :o

I'm obviously ignorant on the subject, but can someone tell me why (WHAT SEEMS TO BE) a metal frame welded to two tires and a caster wheel in front costs so much cash?
I mean I can't find buggies for less than $700-$875 online.

NO WAY the wife will let that fly (<<<see what I did there???)

Do you golf? A single club isn't a big deal, but you can't run a course (well) with it. A single kite is fine, unless the wind changes...

Even at the low-end of the scale, you're paying for a vehicle that'll provide years of use/fun. You're welcome to try to build one for less, but 'd suggest taking a look at the threads that discuss why this (maybe) isn't any cheaper...

(Then again, my wife didn't know anything about my buggy until she saw me assembling it in our garage :lol:

)

Bring your wife to WBB (I do) and she'll figure out the sense in loosening the purse strings.

soliver - 24-8-2016 at 02:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DialedN_07

Keep an eye on the For Sale section, you can find used buggies as low as $350 to $400

Bladerunner - 24-8-2016 at 05:25 PM

I love the golf club analogy! Haven't heard it put that way beFOUR !

I am not pushing you to buggy. I love all rides. They all have their pro's and con's. I'll stick to the 2 choices you are working on.

ATB Pro's : Easy to throw in the car, carry to the field and jump on. Reasonable cost / reasonable shipping. JUMPING !!! :bouncing::bouncy::bouncing:
Con's: You need the right terrain. Only hard pack beaches, dry lakes and somewhat groomed fields. The worse the terrain the slower you have to go.

Buggy Pro's : You can ride them on much rougher terrain. Above high tide. You can go fast, REAL fast! Even on less than terrific terrain. You can jump but that is very advanced stuff. The cost of a buggy compared to a comparable mountain bike is a reasonable deal. ( actual quality buggies have more engineering in them than jumps out at you )You can buy a basic buggy and modify it with after market parts to suit your style.

Cons: You need to break them down to transport in your car or make a rack ( for large race buggies ) . You need to put them back together to get going. Storage. Sometimes shipping costs can kills a great deal.

IF Your location is a suitable one for ATB then stick with your plan. I am mostly warning you about how limited those locations can turn out to be.

Demoknight - 26-8-2016 at 08:01 AM

I haven't read every post here, but I read most of yours. It seems you might be in a similar boat that I once was. I have flown stunt kites since I was about seven years old, and I am 30 now. I have been flying power kites for six or seven years now, and buggying for a little over three years. Kites always came naturally to me, as long as I can remember.

Flying a power kite IS NOT flying a stunt kite. Adding motion to the equation, on the water, or on the land, adds a whole other dimension again. My first power kite was a 5m Tensor, so I can directly relate my experience to you. Hang on to your 3.1. Maybe pass on the 4.2. Don't think of large or small kites in terms of skill levels. You have to remember that the kite size determines the wind you fly it in. I have many kites now, from a 5m all the way up to a 19m. I have to say that my 19m is far easier to fly than my 12m. I wouldn't get rid of any kite you own until you have one high wind, one low wind, and one daily driver. It is far easier to sell and trade kites when you have a full quiver, because then you are just making an adjustment, and not trading away your only kite.

I will second the idea that getting a depower is what you should do if you plan to ATB. Depowers make standing kite stuff so much easier to do because they help you balance while standing, and they typically have more grunt and pull than a fixed bridle will on handles. If you go for a depower foil, the setup and wrap up is exactly the same as a fixed bridle foil, sometimes quicker because of how much easier and faster it is to wrap lines on a bar.

Another good thing about depower kites is that you actually can stretch a full quiver out of maybe two good depowers and fly in almost every wind condition. They can adjust on the fly without taking them down to move knots. You just move your trim strap at the bar and the kite flies differently for the wind you are in. Depower kites are expensive. Most new depower kites are over $1000, and plenty are over $2000. The benefit to them is that you would need two or three fixed bridle kites to handle the same wind range as a single depower. I have two main depowers that I fly way more than my fixed bridles. I have a 12m Peter Lynn Charger II, which flies from about 10 mph until around 30 mph, and I have the 19m Speed 3 Deluxe, which flies from the time you feel wind on your skin until about 20 mph. I would have to own 5-6 fixed bridle kites to cover that same range, and they would probably equal or be higher than the same price. I do own several fixed bridles as well, as they are fun for the buggy also, but I really only use them on beaches with smooth winds. The depowers I can fly basically wherever the wind blows.

Do yourself a favor. Hang on to what you have now, and start saving for a kite fund. Look into getting something like a Ozone Access or Frenzy in the 8-12m range. If you buy used, which will be a lot cheaper, I recommend sticking to 2015 and newer because they have a new safety system that is amazing. Find a harness that fits well and keep asking lots of questions. We know our sh*t.

Demoknight - 26-8-2016 at 08:03 AM

Oh and as for the expensive buggy thing; yeah you can pay as much as you want for a buggy, but if you have friends like us and know where to look, you can get insane deals on buggies. I have a fully custom buggy that Van made for me that is a lot cheaper than you would imagine.

shortlineflyer - 26-8-2016 at 08:57 AM

Let me know if you want to go flying sometime at the monument. I am always looking for flying partners. I have a great place to fly near me as well if you are in Alexandria/Springfield/lorton area that you can buggy in. And I have an extra buggy if you want to try it.

DialedN_07 - 26-8-2016 at 01:46 PM

You guys are awesome. Thanks for keeping this dialogue open. I really appreciate all the feedback and support.

I've received multiple offers to drive a bit and try out some kites. Looks like I'll be heading to VA Beach and back to DC sometime in the near future!

ShortlineFlyer. I'll definately do that. I'm up in DC/MD/VA for work about once a month and I'll try to make arrangements on my next trip.

Demoknight. Very cool, and awesome info! Thanks.

DialedN_07 - 27-8-2016 at 04:56 PM

Went to the beach this weekend. Gained a ton of experience on the handles, and just for fun, switched to the bar. Got about 5 hours of flight time in (wife wasn't thrilled).
Getting "DialedN" with this Tensor 3.1. She pulls like a truck but has a tendency to tip tuck, and the wind window isn't as big as I was expecting. However, my arms and back were put to the test looping, swooping through the power zone and just generally having a great time.
I'm going to bring my kayak out tomorrow and see if I can get some pull in the shallows flying the kite over the sand. Probably look like a dufus, but figured I might as well give it a shot. I know this 3.1 can't touch the water without being a sea anchor, but let's give it a try anyway!

Bladerunner - 27-8-2016 at 06:02 PM

So much good news! :cool:

When you get a chance to meet up with some locals it sounds like you will be that much more ready to try some different kites and even try to ride.

Your goal should be to be able to keep the kite off to one side and under control without having to look at it when you meet up. If you can do that then you can pay the attention needed to the board / buggy + person who is instructing you. I suggest you take a bit of time next time you are in good clean wind to work on that.

Instead of buying a kite right away you may want to consider getting a harness and start getting used to being hooked in. Being comfortable with taking power through your own harness will make folks feel better about letting you try their depower + speed up your learning curve that day greatly. Once you have hands on experience with some bigger kites and depower you will have a better idea of what is working for folks in your area and why.

While playing around with the kayak sounds fun I have to think you might benefit more from that precious time improving your kite skills for another day or 2? This game is 90% kite skills. Getting them down 1st makes trying all that other stuff WAaaaaayy less frustrating! Trust me on that one!!!! The kayak will just run down wind too fast for you to figure out how to keep wind in the kite. I have never tried a kayak but am SURE it would be a big learning curve even with some pilot skills.

What would you guess was the average wind speed at the beach? Was it clean wind? Was the beach hard packed enough to ride ATB???

DialedN_07 - 27-8-2016 at 06:50 PM

I was flying at high tide, so no. but during low tide I'd be willing to bed I could ATB, but probably not with the 3.1.
Wind speed. I have no idea, but it was clean. No gusts really at all. flags were flying ALMOST straight out. 15-20mph?

So let me ask you this.....when practicing "kite skills" tell me what you would look to fine tune. I can fly the kite for days without looking at it. Side of wind window, at zenith, and even lazy swoops without looking at the kite.

I practiced landing and utilizing the brakes in the power zone, and successfully completed about 30 landings and takeoffs on the handles and the bar. Also did some reverse launches on both. Also turned the handles out similar to a depower bar and did some propeller turns. The Tensor doesn't react well to this position with the handles.

But would again like feedback on what someone should focus on when flying.

I feel like I could make my own harness. I have access to a rock climbing harness. Do you think something like that would work for first?

As far as the kayak is concerned, I really just want to see the wind window while moving. I've watched videos and see the position the kite stays in while buggying or boarding, and that's just not possible while static flying. I just want to do SOMETHING with the kite while moving.

Bladerunner - 27-8-2016 at 07:10 PM

Sounds like you are doing all the right things as far as practicing and have more practice than I expected.

Getting comfortable with a harness seems the next best step for now?

With a buggy and board we run parallel to the wind. Holding that line is how we can park the kite at the edge and hold power in it. The kayak won't allow you to run cross wind. You will run down wind toward the kite. Handling the kite in such an extreme down winder will be tricky at best! Please Prove me wrong but I think it will lead to way more frustration than fun? NPW and a Kayak are a functional combo for down winders.

riffclown - 27-8-2016 at 07:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DialedN_07

I was flying at high tide, so no. but during low tide I'd be willing to bed I could ATB, but probably not with the 3.1.
Wind speed. I have no idea, but it was clean. No gusts really at all. flags were flying ALMOST straight out. 12-16mph?

So let me ask you this.....when practicing "kite skills" tell me what you would look to fine tune. I can fly the kite for days without looking at it. Side of wind window, at zenith, and even lazy swoops without looking at the kite.

I practiced landing and utilizing the brakes in the power zone, and successfully completed about 30 landings and takeoffs on the handles and the bar. Also did some reverse launches on both. Also turned the handles out similar to a depower bar and did some propeller turns. The Tensor doesn't react well to this position with the handles.

But would again like feedback on what someone should focus on when flying.

I feel like I could make my own harness. I have access to a rock climbing harness. Do you think something like that would work for first?

As far as the kayak is concerned, I really just want to see the wind window while moving. I've watched videos and see the position the kite stays in while buggying or boarding, and that's just not possible while static flying. I just want to do SOMETHING with the kite while moving.

Another few weeks and we'll be allowed to buggy on the beach again at Va Beach.. Once the crowds clear of course..

DialedN_07 - 29-8-2016 at 04:50 PM

Saw a flag blowing on my way home from work and pulled off the side of the road

PS. How do I embed a video from Vimeo?

soliver - 29-8-2016 at 05:12 PM

Good flying on the video!

You can't embed from Vimeo unfortunately... Only YT on this site.

Best you can do is use an image as your link using a photo sharing site.

It will look like this in the bb code:

[url =put your Vimeo link here][img] put your photo's link here [/img][/url]

Bladerunner - 29-8-2016 at 05:51 PM

Great flying! You have that low wind stuff down for sure and I can see how you feel stuck.

That low of wind takes us back to your issues. I think that is enough wind to get you moving on tarmac with a long board or rollerblades and a well chosen NPW? Unfortunately without a real big space and a real big kite this seems your most fun local option? In that wind the 4.1 would only have done the same stuff slower. You may have been able to create a tiny bit more power but at the cost of fine control.