Power Kite Forum

Help Building my Quiver

DialedN_07 - 25-8-2016 at 12:21 PM

So this isn't a "Wanted" post, but I'm certainly not against taking advice, or looking at some links of available kites if you guys/gals know of any options per my comments below.

Sorry for the long post (grab a coffee) but most people say "we need more information!!!" so here we go.....

I'm at a crossroads. I'm looking (into the future) to build my quiver, but I'm trying to decide which direction I should be spending my hours with researching and inquiring. Fixed Bridle or Depower. I am in no hurry and I am not on a budget, but my wife says I am....so I'm on a budget!!! :)

On one hand I can continue to build out the standard 3 kite FB quiver (3M, 5M, and 7-9M). And on the other hand, I can move over to a depower setup and maybe be happy with my current 1 dual line, 1 FB, and 1 depower (Yes, I realize nobody will ever be happy with only 2/3 kites!!)

Goals: First of all, I have always done and currently only do static flying, but I want to move over to traction sports.

My Prism Synapse 170 is currently my favorite kite because I keep getting drawn back into doing tricks and absolutely flying the kite full bore through the center of the wind window and hearing it scream! Because this is a dual line "stunt" kite, lets also leave it out of this conversation.

**BUT*** I would like to move to traction sports. At home with my limited wind access (can usually never even get my 3.1 in the air for more than 5 min at a time due to <5mph winds). I'm looking at long-boarding in parking lots, inline skating in lots, and ultimately ATB on the sand at the beach, and if I can find a buggy that doesn't cost a mortgage payment, maybe moving that direction eventually. 2-3 years from now, my ultimate goal is to get into the water and kiteboard at the beach, but let's not consider my next kite for that at all, because I'm looking land-only sports currently.

FB - I have a Prism Tensor 3.1 and am frustrated with it because I can NEVER fly the thing with the terrible wind conditions I'm dealing with in summer at my home. The beach is a different story, but I can't go there every day after work (1 hr 45 min away).

FB Currently considering: HQ Beamer 5m or similar and would take advice on a 7-9M FB kite. But I'm so unfamiliar with what options are and what guys like to use

Depower: Really considering because of the larger sizes and ability to adjust to lower and gusty wind conditions.
Flysurfer Peak2 - Some concerns about single skin. Is single skin a fad? and if I don't enjoy the depower as much as I think I will, I might could get knocked in the teeth on re-sale.
or HQ Apex V

I'm not dead-set on any of these, but would like to decide what direction I may be in. I realize I asked about 80 questions above, but if you feel like chiming in on one or all I'd love to hear comments and feedback!

Thanks in advance,

Russell

Bladerunner - 25-8-2016 at 01:09 PM

The whole " can never fly the 3.1 Tensor in my wind conditions " thing is curious?

Are you saying that you can fly the snapshot in that same location on those same days? Are you flying the Tensor in handle mode? Best BY FAR in low wind! Generally speaking, if there is enough wind to make your snapshot fly well there should be enough to FORCE your 3.1 to fly?

Are you sure there are no obstructions to the wind upwind in your location? Learning to look at the wind as fluid like water in a stream is important.

Forcing it to fly isn't easy. Especially when trying to learn. It is do-able with developed techniques. I have a strong feeling you need to get more time in on the 3.1 for now? :thumbup:

As counter intuitive as it seems, if you can't keep a 3m FB foil flying there is almost NO depower kite that will fly much less serve up power. Only high tech high priced lightweight depower kites in large open spaces will do the job in those conditions. Not a logical step up from a 3.1m.

One thing I suggested was that I would rather have a 3 kite FB quiver that covered my super low wind needs than A huge depower and 3.1 trainer 2 kite combo. ESPECIALLY when learning.

Lots of folks will say 7 FB is big enough for a low wind kite but I found it soon left me on the side lines with our low winds. This is why I have suggested a 3.1 - 5 - 8 or 9 FB quiver as something to consider ( on a budget ).

Just to toss another twist in your options. Look at Nasa Star NPW's. No jumping but great street / snow kites that I think have a good bottom end and versatile street / snow kite.

DialedN_07 - 25-8-2016 at 01:57 PM

As clarification, no the Synapse will not fly (easily) in anything BUT beach wind, I basically excluded the Synapse 170 from my conversation because it's not the kind of quiver I'm trying to build. Haven't been able to get it in the air but one time here at home.

Yes, I'm flying the 3.1 on the quad line handles.

As far as the 3.1 is concerned, yes I can "fly" it at home, I can even "fly" it on low wind days, but if I have to constantly take a step back, pull the lines, or create apparent wind 100% of the time, I don't consider that flying. So I say that it "can't fly".

I actually have seen the Nasa Star NPW's. I'm certainly not against them at all, and have kind of seen that they would be an excellent choice for my street stuff and a general engine. But good ol' golly, they are U-G-L-Y! (sorry to whomever I just offended). With that being said, if I was able to come across one that would suit my needs at this point, I would definitely consider adding one.

MotoFoo86 - 25-8-2016 at 02:11 PM

I'm going to second blade here.

I suffer from the same wind issues that you describe.

I currently own a fairly large depower and honestly below about 6mph sustained winds it's s pain to fly. You spend all your time trying to keep it in the air rather than having fun
If I had an opportunity to cheaply (yea right) pick up an 18 or 19m I would. Let's face it they aren't cheap even on no budget. I'm still a big depower fan after having flown fixed bridles for most my life. So I'm not recommending them either.

All I'm really getting at is perhaps, and I know this is hard, be realistic about the reality of your low wind. Nothing in the kite world really generates workable traction below 4mph winds. It's the same thing I often find myself faced with. Now to be fair I've not done the pavement stuff and the lower rolling resistance will allow for a smaller amount of power.

My 2 cents

DialedN_07 - 25-8-2016 at 02:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MotoFoo86  
I'm going to second blade here.

I suffer from the same wind issues that you describe.

I currently own a fairly large depower and honestly below about 6mph sustained winds it's s pain to fly. You spend all your time trying to keep it in the air rather than having fun
If I had an opportunity to cheaply (yea right) pick up an 18 or 19m I would. Let's face it they aren't cheap even on no budget. I'm still a big depower fan after having flown fixed bridles for most my life. So I'm not recommending them either.

All I'm really getting at is perhaps, and I know this is hard, be realistic about the reality of your low wind. Nothing in the kite world really generates workable traction below 4mph winds. It's the same thing I often find myself faced with. Now to be fair I've not done the pavement stuff and the lower rolling resistance will allow for a smaller amount of power.

My 2 cents


Appreciate your response... I think I may just give up on my dreams of flying at home. But there's always hope for those fall and winter winds!!!

Curious Moto' how you like your Apex, and compared to your Montana. I know yours arent the biggest on size, but still should be able to draw some comparisons?

John Holgate - 25-8-2016 at 02:34 PM

For lightwind static flying and landboarding/buggying, how 'bout one of these?



Quite a different look than the Nasa Star 3. Still the same light wind grunt. They're a little different to fly - took me a while to figure out how to stop the occasional back stall. And if you're after speed, then they will disappoint - the Nasa Star is definitely a little faster once you start doing 30 - 40kph in the buggy.

But for static flying and light wind grunt in inland wind, they'd be hard to beat.

MotoFoo86 - 25-8-2016 at 02:55 PM

Comparing the Apex 5.5 to the Montana 7m isn't to hard.

Apex turns MUCH quicker, and is a much more fun kite to zip around the sky. The Apex IV's have a bad rap for backstalling, and it's not undeserved out of the both static flying they do need more front line tension to keep them happy. Fair amount of grunt that builds well using the speed of the kite, also builds ok on apparent. Long depower throw on the bar, small depower throw on the trim strap. All HQ depowers used the top hat safety system up until the current (apex V, montana IX). I have modified all mine to the same as the newer models. The top hat is... outdated. Very "crispy" kite material that helps the foil hold it's shape. Fantastic pricepoint. Heard the Apex V's are a step up to both in terms of flight quality and safety. Takes abuse well.

Montana much less grunt, builds much more on apparent slower turns much more "explosive" power and certainly a ton more lift. Slightly more prone to dropping out of the sky in janky winds. Much more adjust-ability on the bar. They did not need tuning out of the box. All of my montanas have gotten me airborne which for me is a plus for others maybe not so much.

This is mostly based on static flying. I have flown all my Montanas in a buggy and throughly enjoyed them. I have yet to have a need to fly my Apex in the buggy. I will say i have trained quite a few "never evers" on the apex (after some work with a rush pro v). I would never consider putting a newbie on my Montanas especially in janky winds with their "explosiveness" they could put someone in an interesting scenario if they did not know what they were doing.

Bladerunner - 25-8-2016 at 03:53 PM

I totally get you on the NPW being Fugly! A true example of function over form. STILL they are well suited to your street kite desires?

Street kite is low resistance so you can get rolling in pretty low winds. Keep exploring it as a local option?

What are the average winds at the beach? If you are thinking about low lift Apex / Access style kites there is an older 10m Access at a very affordable price on here from a local. I have NO experience with the kite so others may want to give hands on input. 10m Access is a very good sized " all round " kite. It will lack a bit in lift but that will be a benefit at 1st.. It will simply frustrate you in winds you can't force the 3.1 to fly in but from about 8mph will be an engine.

ssayre - 25-8-2016 at 06:25 PM

Here's my take after a few years of strictly flying inland wind. I bought and sold several kites before I finally figured out what worked.

First of all, you will get wind unless you live in a hole or valley (which you might, I don't know). Summer winds stink but when the leaves fall and the season changes, there should be plenty of usable wind.

There is really only 1 choice for successful locomotion in inland locations for buggy/landboard on grass. Depower is the only thing that will keep you moving with any consistency. No amount or type of fixed bridles will change that. Personally, I have owned a pl arc which was decent but I sold it. I currently have a peak 1 6,9 combo. Both are great and have taken my land kiting to another level. With that said, the access also sounds great but I haven't flown one. Another gust muncher that I haven't flown is certain types of LEI's. Guys that used to post frequently on here seemed to like them for gusty wind. Also, there's a fair amount of video evidence of them working well in gusty stuff.

Lastly, streetkiting is another story. The most accessible and affordable and overlooked discipline. I love it and use Nasa Star 2's exclusively for that activity although my peak flies well on short lines and I crossover once in awhile. Nasa stars fly great on a bar and on short or no lines. You still need to find some unobstructed wind. I use lots that border farm fields. Nasa stars are also decent for all land kiting activity but I think depower ultimately wins out when on grass.

Edit: I want to add there are several other brands including the apex that may work as well. I haven't flown them so can't comment directly. It's in the low ar category which generally is better for challenging wind.

For the record I'm building another fixed bridle quiver. Even though it's rare for me, when conditions are right, it's tough to beat fixed bridle session in the buggy.

soliver - 25-8-2016 at 07:38 PM

First off, don't get discouraged with your wind conditions,... its summer time which is inevitably ALWAYS the worst time of year. Be patient and your wind conditions will start to change with the temperature dropping for fall.

Secondly, Single skin (SS) has been around for a little more than a couple of years now and I believe its not just a trend. The success of the Peak series is a testament to that. The 2 brands that are currently the only big players in the SS market are Flysurfer with the Peak series and Born Kite with the Nasa Stars, but the only things these 2 kites have in common are that they are both Single Skin, otherwise they are very different. One is a derivative of a traditional NPW5 and the other a variant of the traditional foil. Other big kite manufacturers have tried but had little success (Peter Lynn Skin) and others are working on prototypes (Monjet? Maybe?). In truth, LEI (inflatable surf kites) are all SS and have been around for a LONG time if you want to count those, and they are super successful... Long story short, I don't think its a trend or a fad,... perhaps just a niche, and its a niche that I fit into... (btw, I'm terribly offended at your insulting my Nasa Star 3's... JK, they are an acquired taste :lol: ). You should know, though that SS kites are not much for static flying; they truly shine with some form of movement. (this is pretty much the case with any depow kite too).

I would say that 95% of my flying is inland ... all of it except when I hit the GA coastal islands for 2 weeks each summer. The SS quiver of kites works for me so well because of their ease of use and gust (and lull) handling abilities. I think the advantages of these kites for inland are that the single skin is light weight and flexible, so they can stay aloft easier, but also handle gusts easier. I have primarily flown Nasa Stars; the Peak is new to me so I'm still figuring it out, but its been awesome for me in the buggy thus far. Just about any of us who fly them on a regular basis will also tell you that they feel exponentially safer while still generating TONS of power, which is SUPER important to me after having been injured by a kite and spending a few months (plus several thousand dollars) in recovery... Also, I don't kite-longboard, but from what I have seen the NS3's can't be beat for it, ssayre is the man to ask about that and he's put in his 2 cents above.

Here is some SS in action:
Inland
https://vimeo.com/166906321
and at the beach
https://vimeo.com/171578142
Great day,... hit 28mph :thumbup:

I'd say if you go depow, go for the Peak, IMHO... I don't think you'll be disappointed at all.

As far as FB foils go, other great options are PKD Buster Soulfully (most affordable), PL Hornet (very similar to Beamer, maybe more grunt), Ozone Flow or Octane, Flexifoil Sting or Rage, and I'm sure there are other I forgot... Somebody post that thread that Riffclown started long ago about "before you ask what kite should I buy,..."

soliver - 25-8-2016 at 08:18 PM

Just a couple of things to chew on:

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=32345
and
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=32407

Demoknight - 26-8-2016 at 08:14 AM

I was able to fly a 2015 14m Access owned by a friend at the beginning of Spring this year in very janky wind. 10mph gusting over 20mph. It was a complete buttered-corn dream. That is the friendliest kite I think I have ever flown. 14m on this kite is like 10-12m on most other kites. It is low aspect, which is perfect for munching gusts. It would be an amazing first depower for anyone moving in that direction. 14m is low wind, so as a beginner, you may not want to fly if it blows harder than 15mph, but it will get you moving in sub 10mph.

abkayak - 26-8-2016 at 11:46 AM

i like the 3/5/7fb route
somewhere along that you throw a board or bug in the equation...then try dp
and if their is an easier dp kite to fly than an Apex id like to see it

Bladerunner - 26-8-2016 at 12:01 PM

This is exactly how I was 1st looking at the way to handle this request. It's the budget thing combined with learning that makes it real hard to give the best advice here. That combined with the fact that we are dealing with sub 6mph.winds.

Going to something like a 14m depower straight from a 3.1 is such a leap and leaves you with a huge gap for average winds once you get to the beach. The cost of a newer or deluxe material kite for that sub 6 wind doesn't fit the budget part.

At one point I felt that getting a good low wind FB kite and something like a 5m to progress with and fill the average wind gap seemed like the answer. Then I discovered that your wind is more like Non existent in summer. I didn't fully click when you said you have negative wind.

When your desire to street kite was added single skin became a real option.

Presently I am thinking the 2 best options to consider are a 9 or 12m Peak Or A big NPW for when your 3.1 doesn't work for street kite and a good all round sized / designed depower for the beach.

Probably the best strategic move you could make is to TREAT your wife to a trip to Wildwood to meet up with the " kite crowd " and let her catch the bug. The group is SURE to win her over.

Instead of stressing about how expensive kiting can be look at ways you can relate how cheap it is compared to so many other sports. You can easily spend as much on golf, ski gear and be stuck with buying passes. I have only bought 3 lift tickets it the last 10 years. My kites are my lift ticket! Mountian biking can be shocking expensive if you start getting serious.

You get what you pay for in this sport. Being allowed a bit bigger budget can and will make the experience better.



Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
I was able to fly a 2015 14m Access owned by a friend at the beginning of Spring this year in very janky wind. 10mph gusting over 20mph. It was a complete buttered-corn dream. That is the friendliest kite I think I have ever flown. 14m on this kite is like 10-12m on most other kites. It is low aspect, which is perfect for munching gusts. It would be an amazing first depower for anyone moving in that direction. 14m is low wind, so as a beginner, you may not want to fly if it blows harder than 15mph, but it will get you moving in sub 10mph.

DialedN_07 - 26-8-2016 at 01:50 PM

Blade - I have a motorcycle, a mountain bike, a road bike, more pairs of running shoes than you can count, inline skates, and a set of golf clubs that I use regurlarly. My wife is about "hobbied out"!!!!

I'm very well aware how expensive this crap can be, but honestly I haven't dropped any of the hobbies aside from road biking. I am just trying to find time of when and where to do all of them!
I hate sitting down and watching TV. I'm always doing SOMETHING.

She hasn't caught the bug on any of my other hobbies yet. However, I am pessimistically optimistic that she is actually showing interest in kiting. She says things like "cool" and "maybe we can try that" when I show her short clips of kiting online. :)

ssayre - 26-8-2016 at 01:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
i like the 3/5/7fb route
somewhere along that you throw a board or bug in the equation...then try dp
and if their is an easier dp kite to fly than an Apex id like to see it


Trying hard to get back to this. now that I have a 3 and 4.4 I'm getting the itch for something like a 6.9 rii

soliver - 26-8-2016 at 04:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  

and if their is an easier dp kite to fly than an Apex id like to see it




Only kite I've ever flown with a hands free launch... jusayin' :o

riffclown - 26-8-2016 at 05:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
...... Somebody post that thread that Riffclown started long ago about "before you ask what kite should I buy,..."


http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=28759&p...

soliver - 26-8-2016 at 05:21 PM

Thanks Riff