Power Kite Forum - Reaching for that next level --Working with your conditions

Reaching for that next level --Working with your conditions

OffAxis - 7-11-2016 at 05:59 PM

This Fall's WBB event was fantastic and I learned a lot about kiting but most importantly I got to meet a bunch of you face to face. I got just a small taste of clean winds and what a hard packed beach can provide. I'm stoked for the upcoming winter season because I finally have large enough kites to snowkite for real this time.

I was out yesterday having fun with my Apex 7.5 but the gust conditions began to pick up and become concerning for my experience level. I have confidence in my kite control skills but I still get nervous about the conditions I have to deal with inland here in central PA. I'm still working on when and were to place the kite to get the desired outcome. I have a better flying spot picked out so that should help me find better wind, but gusts are still challenging my skills.

Yesterdays conditions were a mess. The winds were so light it was difficult to fly yet alone ATB. Then a gust would come along and pull me over the foot straps or have me bounding like I was on the moon. I'm glad I was wearing my helmet because I did take some spills and got plenty of grass stains to annoy my wife.

According to all the info that I have gathered from the PKF knowledge pool, I have some great gust munching kites at my disposal, (See signature). So i'm reaching out to this community ask for more advice about dealing with gusty conditions.

Discussion points:

1. Advice for remaining safe and flying in gusty conditions?
2. How to compensate for fluctuations in power?
3. What do i need to know about my kites to optimize for munching gusts?
4. Any ATB or buggy technique tips for these conditions.
5. What gust levels should I not exceed with my current kites?
6. How to I work up to the recommended max levels safely?
7. How to choose your next kite?

In my area, I feel like it is usually calm and light winds like sub 10mph with lulls. When it is windy it is 10-15mph with 25mph gusts sometimes more. I'm 175lbs and have a ATB, buggy, and snowboard. I would like to get a 4 line kite and I'm still drooling over a Pansh A15 15m. I want to get to the beach more often then just WBB. I also don't like the length of reach on my Apex, need to shorten the chicken loop for starters.

Don't want to hijack the thread before it starts but: Any recommendations for weather stations? I want to put one on top of a 90ft silo at the farm where I ride and hook it up to the internet so I can check the conditions any time from my phone.

Yesterdays windfinder report:

Sorry guys, that was a lot of info all at once. I hope you can help me work through this.

ssayre - 7-11-2016 at 06:35 PM

No magic answers. I've been flying inland for a few years now and you just have to trust your gut. Check weather, find the best spot you can, and pack up when it gets sketchy. Even then, your dealing with Mother Nature and there's no guarantees. You want kites with maximum range of depower. Not sure you have that currently. I've had an arc but not an apex.

abkayak - 7-11-2016 at 07:02 PM

We all watched you at WW...you sell your abilities short, you impressed
If its gusty your better off in the bug...but that's where the Apex throw is kinda weird I find
It's not too long when standing but sitting its like your on your tippy toes
If your not comfy its always best to pack up...but you know that
Best thing you can do is move to the shore, talk to the wife about it...Life's a beach:D

OffAxis - 7-11-2016 at 07:09 PM

I find it difficult to reach the landing strap on the apex. I can reach the top hat safety but really need to reach for the landing strap. I should find a small chicken loop to bring everything in closer.

Thanks abkayak for the kind words and letting me borrow some moments in your buggy at WBB.

Wind_dog - 7-11-2016 at 09:52 PM

"Reaching for the next level -- while fighting the conditions"

This could get drawn out to a long thread. I hope so.
There is so much experience to share on this forum.

I only started with kites and buggies on the beach this year
and found myself craving more with great anticipation,
however, I now have a some apprehension from "reaching for
the next level while fighting the conditions".

The smooth beach winds with appropriate sized fixed bridle kites
got me addicted to this pastime and I recently had the pleasure
to attend ABE and first playa experience.
Yee haw. no need to turn constantly like the narrow beach, instead having
the ability for 5-10 mile park and rides with super low-friction surface.

So I started out slow in light winds, working the kite, then enjoying
long park and ride runs and then hit my challenging next level:
While on a 3m fixed bridle the following occurred.
The background gusty winds increased and my speed built so apparent
wind built and speed increased so apparent wind built and speed increased
then the oh s**t moment " I'm going too fast for my comfort level and can't slow down" but did not want to punch off the kite, yet. Still 5 miles from camp. I rode it for a while then felt I needed to slow down and take more control.

First I tried to head upwind to slow down but buggy started side
slipping more than I thought was best for my limited experience - concerned with catching a rut and overturning - not at that speed!

Next, I started to VERY VERY SLOWLY head downwind in order to run with the kite and slow down. All the while focused on not losing control of the kite in the wind punches and keeping it low to avoid OBE.

Of course in falling off, I crossed through the fastest direction of travel for an additional speed and adrenaline boost. Yee haw. Good thing I had miles of free space to maneuver. Some combination of wind fluctuations and my maneuvers and the kite abruptly dropped to the ground so I manually released m AQR and circled back to grab my kite. Got a ride back to camp
with a fellow ABEr. Thanks!!

I keep replaying that scenario of going thermonuclear and how to regain
control of my speed. It's still spooky. Perhaps more brake to slow the kite would have worked? Ultimately more experience with the capability of my buggy for speed and sideslip will help. I was maybe doing about 35-40 when
I wanted to rein it back in but found it was beyond my skill level.
A turn at that point was out of the question, my only option was a kite dump and a 5 mile walk of shame, not desireable

I suspect that some depowers might be able to bleed off excess power
therefore speed butif winds come up and you are miles out, it could be a similar situation. I am going to depowers for snow so I'll see.

So, without intending to hijack this thread but seek tips on taking it to
the next level - how to safely slow down quickly after you go thermonuclear?
Or do you????

Wind_dog - 7-11-2016 at 10:11 PM

Maybe "too fast" is an oxymoron . . .

Windstruck - 8-11-2016 at 03:00 AM

Lots of information to take in on this thread. Good stuff.

@Off-axis: Many on PKF that live inland work with conditions much like you describe and showed with your windmeter graph. Clean winds are but a fantasy for many of us, except when we haul our seat meat long distances. Tons of solutions, all with their merits and drawbacks to be sure. I personally have gravitated towards DP to give me some semblance of a "throttle". I love the "direct drive" feel of FB and greatly enjoy it for static flying, but for mobile kiting it's DP for me. As you've surely read, there is a love/hate thing with the Flysurfer Peaks. Me, LOVE. The conditions depicted in your graph look to be nice 9-12m Peak gravy. The Peaks have a ton of wind range and a superb quiver can be had with only the 6m and 12m stallions in your stable. Yes, money buys wonderful things. Flysurfer continues to innovate and there will likely be a Peak-3 at some point. Look for that event and then go for the then instantly vintage Peak-2s. FWIW, there have been some fine 12m P2s for sale lately.... just sayin. :D

@Wind_dog: Nothing quite like a first trip to the playa! Nicely played. Alvord is equidistant for me as Ivanpah so I'll have to get there at some point. I've heard absolutely wonderful things! Maybe I'm just a big sissy, but I really appreciate having a throttle when on the Ivanpah playa. When I ride there I'm having fun but I'm also sort of nervous much of the time. I have felt exactly what you describe with the compounding effects of apparent wind and a low rolling resistance surface. Things at one level are fine, but your bowels are starting to get worked up and you have plenty of time screaming along to imagine your OBE, wipe out, etc. One thing you've probably already thought of, but if not please let me suggest, is get one of those big bags that you can strap on to your buggy behind the seat and stow at least two kites in there, one bigger and one smaller than you have in the air. Based on your quiver in your signature, the 4m P2 would have likely been darn handy five miles out. Likely underpowered, but you could have sined it home in a slow jog I suspect. As for bleeding off speed, not sure if this works for FB but with a Peak in the air I ever so slowly turn upwind, taking a couple of minutes sometimes to complete the arc. Bottom line, you got a sort of cherry pop out there it sounds like. Super glad you got out there! My first playa experience was a truly remarkable event.

OffAxis - 8-11-2016 at 06:41 AM

We all come across that oh s*** moment. Not exactly dangerous like wind_dogs story, but still made me squirm a little. Despite the winds being light, it was my first significant ATB and Buggy session. I dip the Apex and get the ATB rolling, then the power rolls on and is accelerating me towards the waters edge. Now what, I think to my self. I'm rolling down the hard pack towards the water fast and didn't exactly know how to slow down. So I lean into it harder and try to scrub off speed. At this point I had to redirect the kite overhead to keep me out of the drink. Luckly I didn't get lofted because of the light winds. That feeling of acceleration is incredible. There were plenty of other nervous moment on the ATB and Buggy that weekend but oh was it a blast. I felt safer in the buggy and power slides were a lot of fun, but I think I enjoy both ATB and Buggy equally.

I still need to learn how to pick optimal tack lines. At WBB I often found myself being pulled sideways or loosing traction on the ATB and think it was because I was angled too far upwind. It didn't help I was consistently fighting my Venom to keep it flying.

My forecast for the weekend. Are these conditions even worth attempting to venture out?

OffAxis - 8-11-2016 at 06:47 AM

I have been trying to read through the FS Peak Discussion thread. Still need to learn more about them. Link to the thread: http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=30725

CHICKENKOOP - 8-11-2016 at 08:27 AM

I bought a used peak2 12 for the light summer winds and have used it more than any of my other kites. the low winds seem less gusty also, and make for the best riding by far.
the peak is stable and predictable making it easy to concentrate on riding. also it will hang in the air during lulls like nobody's business.

nate76 - 8-11-2016 at 08:37 AM

@OffAxis: Based on your wind report and your budget, I was actually going to recommend a 9-12m Peak as well. I haven't personally had the chance to ride one yet, but I know they have a lot of respect on this forum and the price for the amount of power they produce would be hard to beat. And it sounds like they dump power really well, which would be good in those kind of conditions. I know there has been a couple for sale lately.

If you could get a weather station on the silo where you ride - man that would be great. In terms of forecasting - the biggest thing I always look at is the predicted gust differential. The wind speeds will likely not be 100% accurate, but the gust differential will typically give you a sense for how unstable the air is. When I start seeing predicted gusts that are 2.5-3x more than the wind I personally will find another day, place or time. As an example from your chart above, I would feel more comfortable flying in 13g20 than 8g23. Just my .02c, but I would pay attention to it and try to figure out that multiplier number that you are comfortable with based on the forecast for your normal riding location.

Also, I made a short chicken loop for my Apex IV a while ago but no longer have the kite. I think the CL is still sitting in one of my junk drawers. I'd be more than happy to send it to you if you want it and I can find it.

nate76 - 8-11-2016 at 08:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by CHICKENKOOP

I bought a used peak2 the low winds seem less gusty also, and make for the best riding by far.

And I'll second what CHICKENKOOP said: light wind riding tends to be less gusty. For this reason, it is my favorite kind of riding. Unfortunately it is also the most expensive kind of riding.

There aren't many kites that I don't feel comfortable on below 14mph. Even in a poorly-timed power stroke being drug downwind, things don't feel cataclysmic. Typically you have time to react and kill the kite if need be. Start getting into the 15-30mph ranges, and even a small kite [maybe especially a small kite b/c they are so fast] can start feeling downright terrifying if it is mishandled, with bone-crushing results.

So I am a big fan of light winds and big kites.

OffAxis - 8-11-2016 at 08:54 AM

This is MaineKite2 comments about the Pansh A15 18m vs a 12m Peak. I'm not totally sure how this relates, but if the Peak is intended to be a low wind machine, can you explain why the Pansh A15 15m should not also be considered? (Maybe I need to learn more about where the Peak really shines).

Quote:

From this thread: Affordible Session Saver Thread
"Second time in the buggy. Winds maybe 5-7, Ted struggling on a 12m peak, inflates well took awhile to launch as I forgot to close the deflate zipper in my excitement to get going. Once that was taken care of she went right up. Lots of pull, found myself being pulled sideways quite a bit, but with a better wind direction that would be better. Once again apparent wind just built and built. Kite was stable, easy to fly, well mannered and fun. For an 18m the turning speed wasn't bad, you just need to plan ahead a little as with any kite that size that I have flown. I put in 12 miles and got up to 25mph on a day that I would have been sitting around or struggling with other kites. I got mine on sale for around $400, custom colors, including shipping and it was here in about 10 days. Much better than the Aurora"--MaineKite2

nate76 - 8-11-2016 at 09:07 AM

The Peak is going to be able to dump power quicker and handle gusts better. If you think you're really going to find yourself with flying the kite in 15-20mph gusts/winds - the A15 is going to be a lot of kite. Because it is closed cell, it is going to be more "pillowy".

Based on the kind of riding and conditions you're describing, I think the Peak would be a better choice, but I'll let others chime in.

OffAxis - 8-11-2016 at 10:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by nate76

I agree. An A15 15m would probably be a low wind only kite. I'm going to assume from what I read that the Peak2 12m also would be a great option for light wind conditions but still remains small enough with gobs of depower to absorb any errant gusts of inland riding conditions and have a lot of fun with in a larger wind range.

A15 15m light wind only, Peak2 12m more versatile, does this thought make sense?

Windstruck - 8-11-2016 at 01:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by OffAxis

Quote: Originally posted by nate76

A15 15m light wind only, Peak2 12m more versatile, does this thought make sense?

Know too that the 12m P2 has a trim strap (P1s didn't have this). Synch down the trim strap and let the bar out and you are still able to stay safe even if the wind gets up around 20 mph. Hard to beat a 12m P2 for your application.

John Holgate - 8-11-2016 at 01:21 PM

As for going too fast - get comfortable in sliding the buggy. You can keep the kite low and slide the buggy aggressively upwind - this will scrub off speed almost instantly and hence scrub a heap of power out of the kite and force it right to the edge of the window. The trick is not letting yourself come to a stop facing too much into the wind to get going again. You can also do a combination of downwind/upwind turns going tight enough to slide the buggy a little each way...each time you slide, you lose speed and hence apparent wind/power in the kite. Best to practice these sort of things in mild conditions on a predictable surface first to gain a bit of confidence. I've seen some of our more experienced pilots come screaming into camp at 60kph, throw the buggy downwind/sideways and come to a complete stop in 20m.

If you're on the beach, you can head up into the soft sand to slow you right down too.

Bladerunner - 8-11-2016 at 04:52 PM

Here are a few tip:

Size your kite for the gusts. It sucks having to work it hard in the average / lower winds but it is the safe way to go. Look at the charts to see max. wind for your kites and compare that to your gusts.

I suspect you are correct about not aiming your board proper. No doubt you need to point it more down wind more often. The lower the wind the more you must point down wind. In low wind gain a bit of speed down wind before starting to cut cross / upwind.

As the power comes on riding ATB drop your :moon: low and back hehind your board. Push out with your feet. Lean back against the power. Do it to the point that if you lose it you skid out on your :moon: . FAR better than getting yanked over the top!

The lower the kite the better when cruising in gusty winds. If you get hit with a gust and the kite is low you won't get lofted. Run or scrub down wind to absorb the gust. Turn upwind to slow your speed. Taking the kite down low and keeping it there doesn't feel right until you have done it for a while but it is a better way to run.

In a similar manor, don't stand around resting with your kite at zenith. Get used to parking it off to one side. This will help you avoid getting lofted by a big gust.

I am like you. I enjoy both the buggy and the board. The buggy allows me to enjoy terrain that I can't run small wheels on. + it's nice to ride with a crew and the majority buggy.

:thumbup:

Glad you had a helmet on when you found out why you need one !!! :cool:

I get a lot of benefit from my :moon: pads on ATB.

You seem to have a strong desire to own an A15? While a 12m Peak will serve up a lot more range you have your 16m Venom. The extra range you get from the 12 will overlap with your 16 almost completely. So .... 2 options, get the A15 out of your system and use the Venom or sell the Venom to help fund a Peak 2 . Just M.H.O..

Getting comfortable with the kites you have at the upper end of there range is all about putting in time. That and manning up. Arcs in particular still get the best of me when I am about to launch. I still often feel like I have too much kite until I get it in the air and then laugh at my sissy self for being so scared.

OffAxis - 8-11-2016 at 06:38 PM

According to the manufactures: Wind range for the HQ Apex III 7.5 is 4-30mph. PL Venom II 16m is 8-25mph. What that is like in all reality, I guess I have yet to find out. Guess I'll man up to it eventually. Any yes, I'll be keeping my helmet on. I need to get a snowboard helmet so I don't have to wear the bulky MX helmet.

My fascination about the A15 comes from watching Hiaguy unbox his A15 15m at WBB and flying the pants off it. Its a lot of kite for short money and it really shines in sub 10mph winds (the exact conditions we had that weekend at WBB, unlikely conditions for me back home). I would hate to miss out on the 50% off Pansh sale for 2016 if that was my next kite to add to my quiver. I'm still looking at a Flux for some 4 line experience and another FB size at my disposal.

I should get out the Venom more often but choose to go with the Apex simply because it smaller and is less daunting.

On Sunday, the Apex would fly to the edge of the window and sometimes luff and try and invert on me. A few times the wings tips got caught on the bridles an I had to land to fix it. I guess these issues are just part of flying in the inland gusty conditions and must learn to live with it. I also had the foil over fly and dive bomb me like a LEI, it was strange.

OffAxis - 9-11-2016 at 06:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by nate76

The Peak is going to be able to dump power quicker and handle gusts better. If you think you're really going to find yourself with flying the kite in 15-20mph gusts/winds - the A15 is going to be a lot of kite. Because it is closed cell, it is going to be more "pillowy".

Based on the kind of riding and conditions you're describing, I think the Peak would be a better choice, but I'll let others chime in.

Nate76, can you explain this "pillowy" feeling? Is this a trait of all Closed cell kites? When is this pillowy effect an advantage/disadvantage?

nate76 - 9-11-2016 at 08:25 AM

Ya, so closed cell foils like the A15 tend to keep their form a lot more and act like big pillows on the ground. In the air this is good because they tend to be a little more stable and hold their shape better than an open cell kite. But its a minor disadvantage when you are landing. If you use the brake handle to land, its most evident because the kite stays mostly inflated and creates this big wall directly downwind. Depending on how strong the winds are, it can create quite a bit of pull. So typically in higher winds the safe thing to do to land will be to engage the safety - which I believe on the A15 flags out from the front line? In that case, most of the pull is gone, but you will still have some because now you have this big 15 square meter pillow that is flopping around on the ground.

I've had my Matrixx kites out in some pretty substantial winds. The FLS will work and is safe, but you just have to be prepared that there might be some residual pull from the kite - more than what I would probably expect with the Peak.

If you want a picture of what I'm talking about, here is an example of landing an 18m closed cell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdrhA1MybfI

Also, at the end of this video, you can see me engaging the safety on a 9m closed cell in high winds (40+mph)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-VJUmETjbk

Hope that helps!

Nate

Bladerunner - 9-11-2016 at 05:34 PM

I bought my 19m SA for those few days when I get to Seaside or out snowkiting. It doesn't get used much but when I need it, it is priceless! Getting a good kite for those few days when nothing else ( but big race FB foils ) will work at a low price is money well spent.

Nate explains the advantages and disadvantages of closed cell foils well. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages when talking large foils for low wind. Arcs are closed cell as well but having no bridle makes them do this amazing shape shifting thing. When hit with a gust the arc shape gets tighter. This automatically makes the projected area smaller while also acting like a bit of a shock absorber.

I completely understand your concerns with the Venom. Even as a regular arc user I am still often intimidated by the size of my 15m arc waiting to be launched when the crew are moving down to 4 and 5m FB foils. Once it is in the air it is actually right in it's sweet spot and I am so glad I manned up! I absolutely love an arc once in flight. It is ground handling them that can suck. MOST important by far is to get a good fill in the kite before launching. 25mph is pretty much exactly when my 15 is overpowered as well. I am light and for me it's more like 22. That top end is real ( factoring in gusts ) and believe it or not, not as scary to face as you think.

Give that Venom a go! :thumbup:

Getting the A15 during the 1/2 off sale is potentially a good way to get it out of your system? The only word of warning I might have is that re-sale may not be as rewarding or easy as with some other models.

br44 - 10-11-2016 at 07:03 PM

Questions 1-6 have an obvious, universal answer... DO NOT FLY. It's not worth it. Learn what to do when the wind is smooth. Worry about "fighting the conditions" later. (It's a really bad idea anyway. Fighting the conditions, given your current skills, simply means you are asking for trouble... and you may well find it. Again, not worth it.)

Question 7: buy them all. You can then sell what you don't like. Spend some money but gain experience. There is no substitute for buying and flying. By the way, LEIs are very good in gusty winds -- lots of depower, plus the inflatable skeleton does not allow the wing to collapse, bowtie etc.

Wind_dog - 10-11-2016 at 10:46 PM

Thanks to all for the feedback on this thread.

Yah, it would be nice to buy them all - if you can, but we all can't. Sigh.
Luckily, we have family in this forum to share experiences
and find some guidance.

Even more luckily, I am fortunate to live near Sunset Beach and Alvord Lakebed
with many skilled, and sharing kite enthusiasts. Thanks!

But, if you don't fly when conditions are not perfect, you will never fly.
Instead, I'll learn from others at the beach or playa or on this forum.

My self-preservationist game plan is to:
- fly in challenging but not extreme conditions to get to the next level.
- rig undersized kites and work up my kite and buggy skills before going to the next level
- use an AQR in my buggy (thanks Big Kid!)
- use beg-int depowers in gusty conditions, especially Peak2, Access, Lynx, etc.
- carry a bigger and smaller kite on long runs.
- practice learning to bleed speed under moderate conditions before going to next level.
-continue to be obsessed with getting more buggy time.
If conditions are too extreme for kites, I will put my kites away and ride my blokart. :wee:

OffAxis - 14-11-2016 at 05:19 AM

For the sake of future readers, I'm renaming this thread: Reaching for that next level-- working with your conditions. As mentioned earlier, I want to recommend that pilots be smart about what conditions they decide to fly in. Do not fight your conditions for the sake of fulfilling your need to fly something. Learn to evaluate the forecast, the actual conditions, and size your kites appropriately. For us inland guys, we usually don't have a choice when it comes to gusty conditions, we need to learn when to call it quits when the gusting speeds begin reaching uncomfortable levels. We also need to know how to handle overpowered situations by knowing how to control the kite in those split second decisions.

Ironically my conditions this weekend were probably the most consistent I could have asked for. Unfortunately they were too light for buggying, but I was able to get more time static flying the Venom. Now if I had that A15 15m......go figure.

Bladerunner - 14-11-2016 at 05:53 PM

I really think the key to safety is in sizing your kite for the gusts. If you have strong gusts it can be a challenge. You are forced to ride underpowered if the gust factor equals the whole range of your kite.

The good news is that learning to force power from your kite + flying in gusty winds makes you a better pilot in the long run.

Common sense should always dictate your choices. Know your location and what kind of winds it will throw at you. It is one thing to play with power in nice clean wind but a whole different game when the wind is gusty. I am sure you know that Offaxis but it is worth saying.

My 19m is pretty useless in my small local parks. It's just so big and slow that there is too little time to build on apparent wind before having to start into the next turn. On the beach it is a different game. Set her low and go! The A15 may be just a bit quicker turning but you need to ask yourself if your local spots give enough room between turns to build on appaerent wind? Even if your park is small you really want a big low wind kite for the beach.

OffAxis - 15-11-2016 at 05:31 AM

Once winter hits and there is snow, I can finally ride in the farmers fields. But i'm currently limited to soccer fields etc. So yes, a large kite is cumbersome in a small park, but I will have more opportunities to more open areas soon.

Can you dive deeper into how you build apparent wind. I've only had the buggy out in light winds and struggle to keep the kite powered after the initial power dive. It is my understanding that keeping tension in the lines is key. It also seams like the initial surge pulls great but doesn't have enough power to keep flying. The Venom pulls like crazy for how light the winds are but will back stall if you don't conserve enough of its energy to loop or dive it again. Without power diving it, I wouldn't get anywhere. The conditions were probably just to light and variable.

CHICKENKOOP - 15-11-2016 at 09:13 AM

if I may inject some more opinion on the closed cell v single skin subject.
the only closed cell I've flown is my Pansh genesis 8 m. it is as different as can be from my peak2 12 as is possible.
the pansh has to be pre-inflated, as it will not fly. so I carry an inflating fan, once full it holds is shape even without wind. this is big benefit when the kite is forced to land due to gust slap-down or lull. if pilot controls the landing the kite sits at the ready to launch on next gust for long periods of time
there's this move I do where the kite doesn't have enough power to up-loop but not enough height to down loop and I want it on other side of window, I will pull the up loop till it stalls, then bar in till kite hits ground on its tai l(with some force) then quick bar out, the kite actually bounces up and rotates from the friction towards the other side of window. a bounce pass, if you will.
on the other hand, the peak unpacks and is ready for lift off in a pinch. pack up is fast also.
the big difference is once the peak falls, it can be un re-launch able in a moment. it has no structure on the ground. it will drop into a tangled pile and remain no matter which line combos I pull. in fickle jank winds, walking to the kite and resetting, is required often.
open cells like my apex are a little of both.

Windstruck - 15-11-2016 at 09:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by CHICKENKOOP

if I may inject some more opinion on the closed cell v single skin subject.
the only closed cell I've flown is my Pansh genesis 8 m. it is as different as can be from my peak2 12 as is possible.
the pansh has to be pre-inflated, as it will not fly. so I carry an inflating fan, once full it holds is shape even without wind. this is big benefit when the kite is forced to land due to gust slap-down or lull. if pilot controls the landing the kite sits at the ready to launch on next gust for long periods of time
there's this move I do where the kite doesn't have enough power to up-loop but not enough height to down loop and I want it on other side of window, I will pull the up loop till it stalls, then bar in till kite hits ground on its tai l(with some force) then quick bar out, the kite actually bounces up and rotates from the friction towards the other side of window. a bounce pass, if you will.
on the other hand, the peak unpacks and is ready for lift off in a pinch. pack up is fast also.
the big difference is once the peak falls, it can be un re-launch able in a moment. it has no structure on the ground. it will drop into a tangled pile and remain no matter which line combos I pull. in fickle jank winds, walking to the kite and resetting, is required often.
open cells like my apex are a little of both.

@Chickenloop - one of the flying arts for successful, low frustration, Peak flying, is perfecting your stall landing skills. This is particularly relevant for the 12m P2 as it is most often flown in low, variable wind conditions, at least in janky-wind-ville where so many of us live and attempt to fly. Over time and lots and lots of flights I have come to appreciate the mindset of not fighting the kite to the bitter end trying to keep it in the air during the lulls. Instead, know when you've been beaten and gracefully bring the 12m P2 down on its trailing edge. Take pride in this skill and you will be richly rewarded with easy graceful re-takeoffs once the wind picks back up.

When I was starting out with the 12m P2 I too crumpled it up a lot and needed to repeatedly get out of my buggy, untangle the hot green mess at the end of the lines and then run back to the buggy before things got out of hand. With practice you can gracefully bring the kite out of the sky during the lulls and just sit out the lulls, hopefully taking in the nice view. Good luck!

slapbasswoody - 15-11-2016 at 11:00 AM

Speed and control:

Ok so here I will try to offer some advice on what I know about speed and control.

When competitive racing you need to be running as fast as possible but under perfect control.
First of all, be comfortable with the size of kite that you are flying. If you are nervous then you are not under control.
On a nice big open expanse of beach/lake the easiest way to slow down is to raise your kite slowly and turn towards the wind.
This might feel a scary if you are over powered but you will be fine.

I saw that there was some mention of using the brake lines to bring the kite backwards, well this can work but most of the time the kite will move too far back into the window and you increase the risk of over taking your kite. This could lead you to loose control and then the kite is behind you. If it powers up in this situation you will be in Oh Oh Oh BE country.
Also on a lot of newer kites they boost with brake input so the trousers might get browner.

As John mentioned scrubbing off speed is certainly the quickest way to slow down, it is also lots of fun but be aware of your surface. If it is soft or sticky or like the surface of the moon then you could end up in Oh oh oh BE country again.

I would suggest that whenever you can is to get out slightly under powered and practice your moves (Not dancing). Downloop Jibe, Tacking and suicide jibes (forwards and backwards). These are all moves that will get you confident in your kite and buggy skills.
The more confident you get with these moves the faster you will go and the more fun you will have instead of brown trouser moments.

I am not sure about over here in the USA but across the pond in Europe we used to quite regularly race with 30-40 pilots at 40-50mph around a course tacking and suicide jibing at full speed.

I remember the first time I entered the PKA racing series and that was brown trouser time just because of the skill level difference between them and myself.

We started race training sessions at our club and before too long I had much more confidence due to the fact that we were picking lines around a course and making manouvers around cones. This I found was really important for progression even though I enjoyed a nice straight reach up the beach too.

I hope that this helps a little.
All the best

Woody

Bladerunner - 15-11-2016 at 04:44 PM

If you are referring to my reference about reaching up and grabbing some brake line I may be misunderstood.
What I was referring to is a very low wind situation and usually a big kite. In this case I am usually running with the trim strap almost closed in, leaving the back lines a bit slack and sluggish. I should have stressed that you reach up and grab the brake line that you want to turn on to speed up the turn.

Apparent wind happens by combining your speed on land and the speed the kite is traveling through the sky with the wind itself. Speed = Power!
Diving the kite speeds the kite up. It now sees a combination of the wind speed and it's speed of travel. Use that boost to increase your ground speed. On the next stroke the kite will see a combination of your gained ground speed, the wind speed and the speed the kite is diving at .Try and sort of coast while keeping tension on the lines as you sine ~ the kite back up. On each consecutive dive work at increasing your ground speed on the power stroke. With a kite that feeds on apparent wind after a stroke or 2 you can set the kite and gain speed by pumping power with the bar and your track.

slapbasswoody - 15-11-2016 at 11:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

If you are referring to my reference about reaching up and grabbing some brake line I may be misunderstood.

No sorry I was thinking about fixed bridal kites and the brake lines
All the best
Woody

OffAxis - 16-11-2016 at 06:10 AM

Love the discussion guys, keep it up.

Bladerunner, what happens if your kites doesn't have enough energy to fly back to the top of the sine wave. I'm thinking there just wasn't enough wind but I would like to confirm that thought.

Feyd - 16-11-2016 at 06:26 AM

As long as you're moving you can bear off, away from the kite to maintain tension as the kite rises towards the apex. Followed quickly by a dive into the power stroke at which point you can either maintain your line and build speed or resume your predive line and maintain your momentum.

This said, "apex" of the sine can be a bit of a moving target. If you can't fly to a high apex, you fly up as high as you can, just short of causing stall, and then dive the kite. The initial power increase will be minimal but it's still an increase. And through repetition, the speed should increase resulting in power increase which allows for speed increase and so on.

Another technique is as Blade described. "Cheating" the lines or reaching up and grabbing the center line leaders (we're talking depower in this case) can encourage a momentary surge in power. Similar to trimming in a little bit to change the AoA of the kite but faster and more flexible.

Here's an example. Lots of line cheating and especially at 4:20 where I made the mistake of uplooping the turn in wind too light. :duh:

https://youtu.be/faCAZM85bfo

Light wind flying is the hardest to get dialed and will make you the best pilot you can be in the shortest amount of time. A lot of finesse is needed to get the most out of a kite in light winds. But You can fly rigged for the gusts and make the best out of the entire wind range on a light wind day.

OffAxis - 16-11-2016 at 08:49 AM

Its also important to keep the bar and lines from getting tangled or caught on your harness, spreader bar, and buggy/ATB when doing this because the bar can be hanging around your knees.

Bladerunner - 16-11-2016 at 05:57 PM

Some artful arc work there!

Is it just my perception or was that Eric guy being a bit of an :moon: at about 3:20? He seemed to be giving you very little rom below him. I know he would have lost some speed with the kite higher but??? Hopefully you are friends and he was just toying with you?

Feyd - 16-11-2016 at 06:22 PM

Thanks, Worked that arc hard in that race.

Never met the guy in my life before that interaction. We met up afterwards and had a light hearted discussion about it. He fully admitted that he was trying to block me out and was a bit surprised when I was willing duck his bar and squeeze through. He said that beast of a LEI would never have gotten back in the air if we touched and crashed so he was happy that it went well.

He's a good rider. Flies predictably. I knew I could get that 24m by if he didn't twitch. ;-)

nate76 - 16-11-2016 at 08:11 PM

That was some great flying Chris - a lot of fun to watch.

I'd love to make it up there one of these years for that race - looks like a great time.

markite - 16-11-2016 at 08:55 PM

nice to take that run with you Chris - when you were passing under I was thinking of some tricks from rokkaku kite battles of using your line to catch an edge of his kite from behind as you raise yours to slightly pivot his into a downward turn .... but maybe that would have been illegal. Didn't matter, you squeaked through.