Born Kite LongStar 2

I wonder if this is what has become of the Ultra-Star.....either way, judging by the video, it does look promising indeed.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Very interesting indeed. I'd like to get my hands on one of those. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D79VP_jE6fw&feature=yout...

Cool video. Born is always innovating! So who is going to be the first kid on his block to get one of these? :D

Was wondering the same thing. Pre Ultra Star? Very cool looking kite.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

If you look closer at the pics, it appears as though it is a different sort of depower. Like with the NS3 where the "depower" comes from crumpling the nose, it looks like the depower on the LS2 crumples the midsection of the kite. I might be wrong, but the sizes to me indicate that its not a true depower as we know it.

Look closer. It sure looks to me like it's a regular depower kite. It clearly shows the 2 pulley mixer and you can tell when it shows him flying. Also I didn't see any lines to the "nose".

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

In some diagrams that Steffen sent me, the angle of attack will decrease as the bar is let out and the curve/depth of the kite will flatten out also. From the diagram it looks like the fabric at the trailing edge can go quite slack - having said that, I'm only looking at line drawings. From the other pics I've seen (and you can see them on this thread here: http://www.extremekites.com.au/topic/16520-born-kite-longsta... ) it looks like a trailing edge safety along both sides of the kite. Not sure if it's a separate line for those or just a release to rear lines. I think I can see five lines in the video. I'll be able to let you know in a week or two. It really will need to be as good or better than the Peak 2's as that's obviously the closest competition to the LS2 and the price (with bar) is not hugely different. Oh, and it's got 182 bridles! I was also interested to note that there are no ribs on the belly of the kite like the Peaks have. And just going by the video, it seems to hold a better trailing edge curve than my Peak 2's do (which was the reason the 6m got called a 'hamburger wrapper' by Chook who will remain completely anonymous. Oh, damn, I typed that out loud!

182 bridles.... oh my! :o

Steffen most kindly dropped me a note a couple of days ago alerting me to the delivery of his new baby. I posed the following questions to him this morning. I'll post what I find out:

"Lots of good chatter on PKF and XK about your new LS2s. Us kite geeks are curious about a couple of things: First, is your pulley system such that you now have more or less a traditional de-power setup with the pulleys up by the bridles such that movement of the bar in or out only changes the angle of attack? I don't see the pulley system anymore at the bar that you had to reverse things with the LS1. Second, how does your safety system work? I'm thinking you now have a 4.5 line system similar to, say, a Flysurfer Peak2, such that deployment of the safety flags the kite out on one of the brake lines. None of us watching your videos have noticed a 5th line going all the way to the kite. Third, are you able to compare the amount of DP you achieve with pushing the bar out, again compared to the 4m or 6m Peak2? These just seem to be the most comparable kites which is why I'm referring to them again and again. Finally, something that is a bit of a problem with Peak2s is "tip tuck" collapse and extreme trailing-edge flapping when pushing the bar forward. How are these traits with your new LS2s?"

I got an email back from Steffen Born. So, straight from the horse's mouth:

But now to your questions:

The pulley system is now in the kite and the depower function works according to the following principle:


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The LongStar-2 flies amazingly stable, it is a huge difference to the LongStar-1.
It also flies significantly different than the peak 2.

The safety is provided by a lateral safety line on the front line.
Just as it is practiced with two lines kites.

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A comparative to other kites should not be made by the manufacturer. For this reason, I sent a test kite to John Holgate. He is competent and will certainly make an objective judgment.

Quote:

it looks like a trailing edge safety along both sides of the kite.

Just goes to show how looking at pictures can bring you undone I had assumed that the picture with 'trailing edge leash' written on it was for the safety. Obviously not....

Very interesting; it looks like from the diagram above that the Depow engages one of 2 sets of bridles to flag in or flag out, haven't seen that before, that may explain the number of bridles!
Thanks for sharing that Steve!

I stand (or at least I sit) corrected!... Just looking at the photos (yes I noticed the pulleys) it looked like the middle or trailing edge just crumpled. I couldn't see the change in AoA.

It deffo looks like a cool kite, but the sizes (short of the 7.5m) all seem awfully small for DP, even as SS kites.

I couldn't afford one anyway... gots to go make kitchen cabinets now

Nice new video with those endouring sweet tunes! I like Kristen's jump to a freeze frame 3/4ths through. Ah yes, the kite... looks stable and smooth in the light winds. Most interested to hear and see its performance as a buggy engine.

Quote:

Most interested to hear and see its performance as a buggy engine.

Me too! I have the 5m but the weather is not cooperating - not even to get it up in the paddock let alone get it down the beach. All I've done is put the lines on so far and it seems very similar to the FLS setup on the P2.

Managed a few short static sessions today and got lots of photos this evening that I've put in our gallery here: LongStar 2 photos

Kite flys very nicely, light bar pressure, nearly spins on a wingtip, FLS works well and doesn't seem to mess things up, lots of power, maybe some lift (but very light and gusty winds), depower works well - as you let the bar out, the belly and trailing edge begin losing tension and the power drops off quite well, lands on it's brakes without fuss. It feels like it should be pretty fast and have decent upwind but I'll have to wait till I get it to the beach to know for sure. Steffen's done a great job on the bridling with a really even profile when under power. No idiosyncrasies or peculiar traits that I noticed. Well behaved at the edge of the window. No binding where the power lines go through the bar when turning. So far, so good.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Managed a few short static sessions today and got lots of photos this evening that I've put in our gallery here: LongStar 2 photos Kite flys very nicely, light bar pressure, nearly spins on a wingtip, FLS works well and doesn't seem to mess things up, lots of power, maybe some lift (but very light and gusty winds), depower works well - as you let the bar out, the belly and trailing edge begin losing tension and the power drops off quite well, lands on it's brakes without fuss. It feels like it should be pretty fast and have decent upwind but I'll have to wait till I get it to the beach to know for sure. Steffen's done a great job on the bridling with a really even profile when under power. No idiosyncrasies or peculiar traits that I noticed. Well behaved at the edge of the window. No binding where the power lines go through the bar when turning. So far, so good.

As noted earlier on XK, we wait with baited breath for your first videos and beach review. No speedos in the shots please.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Quote: No speedos in the shots please. er......:puzzled: Did a small amount of buggying with it the other evening - only in the paddock for half an hour or so but it did confirm that it is a very well behaved kite. At one point, I held it high and stationary with the bar out in light and gusty conditions and the worst thing that happened was the nose folded over - instantly rectified by pulling the bar in. No evidence of any unwanted or peculiar behavior. It really starts to pull when you get a bit of apparent wind into it so I'm chomping at the bit to get it to the beach which I hope to do next week - if not then I'll be off to Kingston on the 14th where there should be plenty of opportunity to fly it. All indications so far are good. The bridling is first class with a beautifully even tension over the whole kite when under power (some of the pics on XK show that). It get's a little wrinkled when the bar is out but so far I haven't noticed any 'flapping' as such.

http://memyselfandhi.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/speedo.jpg

Kite sounds better and better. The speedo refererence was about a video of middle age men at the beach. Bad, bad visual.

I heard back from Steffen about his FAS setup for the LS2. It's really pretty simple. He explained with both words and pictures as seen below:

The FAS system is effective and works with a 5th line.
The basis for the FAS is available in each LongStar-2. All you need is the yellow pull line (you can obtained free of charge if required).

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All you have to do is configure the length of the 5th line at your bar (look at the third image).

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Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Pulled the trigger and joined the (expanding) LongStar2 tribe! I've got an inbound 9.5m LS2 equipped with the optional 5th-line FAS system. I'm (regretfully) familiar with this design from the LS1 and like it. Pokey is a happy pony! :singing:

Cool! They sound like they are very maneuverable. Look forward to your thoughts. Interesting that Tiger on xk bought them and is a true Peak fan. That's very telling, however most of those guys fly on the coast so I take their reviews with a grain of salt. You'll get to test the gust handling ability I assume

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck   Pulled the trigger and joined the (expanding) LongStar2 tribe! I've got an inbound 9.5m LS2 equipped with the optional 5th-line FAS system. I'm (regretfully) familiar with this design from the LS1 and like it. Pokey is a happy pony! :singing: Cool! They sound like they are very maneuverable. Look forward to your thoughts. Interesting that Tiger on xk bought them and is a true Peak fan. That's very telling, however most of those guys fly on the coast so I take their reviews with a grain of salt. You'll get to test the gust handling ability I assume

I may actually need to send Spencer my JWC t-shirt and wallet ID card. I'm not really planning on doing much buggying anymore in the small fields near my house in the Wasatch mountains, certainly some fine jank there. Rather, I'm planning on buggying either on the "beaches" of the Great Salt Lake or the Playa of Lake Ivanpah. Both of these spots have some comparitively smooth winds.

Quote: Originally posted by OffAxis

Looking forward to the P3 vs LS2 review.

Size difference notwithstanding, you can count on it! :karate:

I'm sorry Steve, but your dues are non refundable.... in other words, I'm not giving you back the money you never gave me!!!

I just heard from Steffen that he is coming out with a brand new LS2 bar. There was some push back on the original bar that he was shipping with the new LongStar2s and he has pulled off a nice upgrade. He is using an adjustable width bar across the entire quiver. I've used this exact bar with great satisfaction when I was flying a quiver of NS3s and I loved how I could simply and quickly adjust the bar for different size kites or different sorts of wind conditions. It also appears that he (finally) has a nice chicken loop, a welcomed improvement IMO. I've had a beef for a while with his chicken loops but this one finally looks legit. The Australian folks on XK that have flown the LS2 are raving about it.


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Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Does anybody know, or can at least guess, based on other DP kite (e.g. Peak) how much the LS2 DP equates to in terms of reduction in power? Would it be equal to say a 6 M being as small as a 3 M, or would it be more like going to a 5 M. I hope this makes sense.

All good questions of course. I don't have any of these new P3s or LS2s in my hands yet. On another site (XK from Australia) the venerable John Holgate has put together a dandy review of the LS2. It can be found here:

http://www.extremekites.com.au/reviews/kites/born-kite-longs...

He aptly avoids overly comparing the LS2 to the Peak series but does spend some time on that topic. It would seem that the 5.5m LS2 is comparable to the 6m P2 in terms of pull more or less, I suppose as one might expect.

If your question is that of comparing sizes of DP to sizes of FB that is a whole other sort of question of course. Projected area, pulley systems, bridles, etc. all naturally work into this equation. Foil, SS, NPW for the FB, so many factors.

Live from IBX2017, here is some Born-Porn for the truly devoted (you know who you are!):


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And the Road Warrior extra who was piloting it (me!):

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Awesome photos, Steve! Love the top one with the solar tower.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Wow - you do ook like Mad Max covered with all that body armour. Then again, Max is a survivor.

I know, right? :D

As my good friend John Alden (cerebite) coined, I was donned in "plastic courage" from head to toe. :karate: Great credit actually goes to him. The upper body plastic courage is the exact same brand and style as he uses complete with the use of a fly fishing vest. The vest is a great final touch. It adds no heat and is loaded with pockets large and small. Perfect for stowing gear for the great vast expanse.

The helmet feels very sturdy and would likely be useful in a crash, but the part that juts out over my chin made it hard to see my AQR setup. It took me a while to get comfortable with a kite up in the air sitting in the buggy fiddling with a carabiner trying to get it to clip into the metal ring of the system. I got the hang of it eventually but a helmet with a slightly less jutting chin piece would have made it easier.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Awesome photos, Steve! Love the top one with the solar tower.

Thanks John! Pretty special place to ride, that's for sure. That photo is deceiving as the tower is really far away. The panels below the tower (those thousands and thousands of little bright dots are each giant panels being aimed by a computer to converge the light on the tower. Though I'm sure far more complicated than this, the tower is essentially a large barrel of water that gets boiled by the converging light driving turbines to generate the power. Not-so-small problem with that design is that it is like a giant Kentucky Fried Chicken near its base. Any bird, large or small, that flies too close to the tower gets literally fried. The base of the tower is supposedly absolutely covered with the charred remains of countless poor avian souls.

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington

What size is kite in pics..?

The gold/white/black LS2 is the 9.5m. The green/white one is the 9m Chrono V2.

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate   Awesome photos, Steve! Love the top one with the solar tower. Though I'm sure far more complicated than this, the tower is essentially a large barrel of water that gets boiled by the converging light driving turbines to generate the power.

It is more complicated, the barrel is filled with salt that gets so hot it turns liquid.

Nice how you point out how one would feel on Coyotes. + that you aren't going to sell the 3.5 anytime soon. 2 things inquiring minds wanted to know!

You may call it a small kite but when you were out there and everybody else was franticly buzzing about on 1.5 - 2m kites that star looked like and acted like a real grown up kite! MY style of kite!!

I am so kicking my :moon: for not getting a spin on it. I suspect that a lightweight in a light buggy or blades or ATB on a fast surface would be able to spank a pretty decent bottom end out of that star? We almost never get 30mph winds here and if we do they are usually real messy. My trusty Profoil works well in " survival " conditions but is ready to self destruct. I am not rushing but suspect the next kite I buy will be this one.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

Just reading your write up on the 3.5m, how does it compare to your previous 4m P2?... you said above that the 3.5m only does the deed over 30mph... how does that compare to the P2?

Spencer - I think you can have a blast on this kite in winds under 30 mph. I'd think you could get up and going in any winds in the mid 20s and up. Anything under 20 and it would be grossly under powered. These numbers seem so arbitrary since so much depends on rolling resistance, air density, temperature, etc. Particularly rolling resistance of course.

I like this kite a whole lot better than the 4.0m P2. I did read that Flysurfer did the most revision to the line in the 4.0m in the P3 release so maybe anything I say about the P2 is now superfluous for the P3.

Compared to the 4.0m P2, the 3.5m LS2 seems to have comparable pull (though I flew these two kites one year apart!). Both can be nicely toned down by pulling in the clam cleat line and letting out the bar. Two big differences, both in favor of the LS2 vs P2: Far more stable and solid looking and feeling in the air, particularly when letting out the bar. The P2 flaps like a furious bird when flown that way while the LS2 still stays pretty solid with only a bit of wiggle in the lower corners. Both kites are solid in the air when the bar is pulled in. Second, the power curve feels right on the LS2 but wrong on the P2. The P2 rapidly drops and gains power with bar movement (a really steep curve) while the LS2 has a smooth nicely dialed in curve.

I haven't seen the 4.0m P3 but the 3.5m LS2 has more and longer bridles than the 6.0m P2. All this bridling is both a blessing and a curse as Steffen put it and I agree with him. More bridling keeps the single skin really solid and beautifully filled in the air, but you will curse when you tangle the bridles. In the 3.5m size you will be using this kite in high winds, and I had some tangles develop that needed to be worked out by hand that formed in the time between when the kite was laid out on a pole and when I had walked back to the bar to hook in. This was a non-issue with the 9.5m since I was using it in lighter winds. I suspect that this bridle tangling issue gets worse the smaller the kite gets since you use it in stronger and stronger wind.

Speaking just between the 3.5m LS2 and the 4.0m P2 I have a clear preference for the LS2. While I'm sure the 12.5m LS2 is a fine kite in its own right my heart is already spoken for with the 12m P3 aka Session Saver!

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

Nice how you point out how one would feel on Coyotes. + that you aren't going to sell the 3.5 anytime soon. 2 things inquiring minds wanted to know! You may call it a small kite but when you were out there and everybody else was franticly buzzing about on 1.5 - 2m kites that star looked like and acted like a real grown up kite! MY style of kite!! I am so kicking my :moon: for not getting a spin on it. I suspect that a lightweight in a light buggy or blades or ATB on a fast surface would be able to spank a pretty decent bottom end out of that star? We almost never get 30mph winds here and if we do they are usually real messy. My trusty Profoil works well in " survival " conditions but is ready to self destruct. I am not rushing but suspect the next kite I buy will be this one.

Ken(2): You are no doubt correct. I am, err, gravitationally challenged and represent a whole lot larger load to accelerate than you would on your coyotes. I suspect you'd be getting comparable performance in 10mph lighter winds on your Coyotes than I would in my buggy.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Quote: Anything under 20 and it would be grossly under powered. Wow, the air must be pretty thin - comparatively - at Ivanpah. I haven't had the 3.5m in the buggy yet, but I did have an enjoyable static session in 8 - 12 knots on the beach a couple days ago. Even in that wind, 10ft scuds were compulsory when I kept the bar pulled in - buggying would have been absolutely no problem. With the bar fully out (I've got a 'home put-together' job with a longish throw atm) there was a small amount of 'rustling' and little pull from the kite. It was very well behaved and I was able to touch down at the edge, let the bar out and drop the chicken loop over a stake and go and grab the kite which just bobbed up and down at the edge. 20 knots (22mph?) is going to be well and truly lit up down here. 14 -15 knots should be really nicely powered. Hope to get the little green one and the big yellow one in the buggy soon.

Wind speeds are so hard to judge. It's not as if I'm getting out my wind meter each time. I would say that the air at Ivanpah is pretty much bone dry and at some altitude (not mountain high but sure as heck not sea level). OK, just looked it up: 2,600 ft. I'm also a whee tad, shall we say, gravitationally challenged, coming in over 100 kg by a fair margin.

Awesome how you can land it on its side like that! That's some beautiful smooth onshore winds talking I suspect. Maybe not, but at IBX when the winds were high enough to necessitate the 3.5m LS2 they were also pretty punchy and squirrelly at times and a move like that would have been hard to pull off. I was able to get her nice and stable at the edge of the wind window but I don't think I would have dared to hook the chicken loop as you described.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

The FAS system got lost in the mail somewhere. But I did manage to finally get the 9.5m out of it's bag and attach the lines. What an awesome beast she is too. 6 - 8 knots she was pulling like a truck. At one point I launched it in what could have only been 2 - 3 knots and honestly did not expect it to fly let alone pull the buggy, but it launched with ease and with some fig 8-ing, moved me down the beach to where the wind picked up another couple of knots allowing me to park n ride back to base. We had tried to get Rob's 12m LEI back into the air in the same wind speed.....not a chance. Quite responsive and easy to turn for a big-ish kite especially when you see how much depower I had pulled. Really put a smile on my dial after not buggying for 7 months.

Great to see you posting Mr. Holgate. She is a honey! It's been months since I've buggied as well. You've likely seen the "video" Steffen put together of the still photographs of me with the 9.5 on Ivanpah. It was as rock steady there as on your beautiful beach. Vastly refined from the 1.0! Beautiful sunset towards the end my friend.

A number of months back I bought the powder blue Big Momma, the 12.5m. It sits patiently in my garage awaiting its maiden flight as well. I hope to use it on Ivanpah this November when a few of us are putting a trip together around US Thanksgiving. I've had success in the past on Ivanpah using the 12m P2 and P3 in the mid to late morning when the playa often transitions over an hour or so from being essentially wind still to barely breathing. I suspect the 12.5m LS2 will shine once I can feel a breeze on my face.

Should you be able to work it out, Steffen's leading edge safety system works as advertised, the penalty for use being the risk of lots of bridle work after deployment. :o

I hope this is a resurfacing of sorts for you on PKF - you've been missed! :karate:

I'm considering filling the holes in my quiver with these, and possibly selling off the other kites to get the full set (eventually). The idea is that my hubby and I will share them, with him using one size larger than me in the same wind. The only other kites I have as a reference are a 7.5m Apex III and a 12.5m Montana III (I haven't flown the Montana, it's way too big!).

How are these Longstar 2's in comparison to a twin skin foil like the Apex/Montana? We snowkite on skis in the Sierra, so the winds are always gusty and inconsistent. Lately we've had a hard time finding winds low enough to even get the kites up, resulting in many faceplants :o From reading about the Longstars and also Peaks it seems like these kites would be good in our kind of winds. We're planning on getting either mountain boards or buggies in the summer and we have a couple of dry lake beds nearby, so the kites would be used for that as well, but the winds will be similarly inconsistent (either howling or dead). We don't plan on doing any (intentional) jumping... we're looking for well-mannered kites with plenty of depower that won't kick our arses!

Also, a question about the bars available for these. The plan was to buy a bar each and attach whichever size kite we want to use. Are the Born adjustable bars the best for this plan? Or is there a different bar that would work? How are they compared to other bars that we could get, both price and functionality-wise?

Last question... for those who have ordered these from the US, how are the shipping charges, and do you get charged import duty? Also, do they subtract the VAT for non-EU buyers?

Sorry for the mass of questions! Unfortunately we're unable to make it to IBX otherwise I'd be bugging you all for answers in person

Quote: Originally posted by mahgnillig

I'm considering filling the holes in my quiver with these, and possibly selling off the other kites to get the full set (eventually). The idea is that my hubby and I will share them, with him using one size larger than me in the same wind. The only other kites I have as a reference are a 7.5m Apex III and a 12.5m Montana III (I haven't flown the Montana, it's way too big!). How are these Longstar 2's in comparison to a twin skin foil like the Apex/Montana? We snowkite on skis in the Sierra, so the winds are always gusty and inconsistent. Lately we've had a hard time finding winds low enough to even get the kites up, resulting in many faceplants :o From reading about the Longstars and also Peaks it seems like these kites would be good in our kind of winds. We're planning on getting either mountain boards or buggies in the summer and we have a couple of dry lake beds nearby, so the kites would be used for that as well, but the winds will be similarly inconsistent (either howling or dead). We don't plan on doing any (intentional) jumping... we're looking for well-mannered kites with plenty of depower that won't kick our arses! Also, a question about the bars available for these. The plan was to buy a bar each and attach whichever size kite we want to use. Are the Born adjustable bars the best for this plan? Or is there a different bar that would work? How are they compared to other bars that we could get, both price and functionality-wise? Last question... for those who have ordered these from the US, how are the shipping charges, and do you get charged import duty? Also, do they subtract the VAT for non-EU buyers? Sorry for the mass of questions! Unfortunately we're unable to make it to IBX otherwise I'd be bugging you all for answers in person

I'm not sure how many people own LS2s in the US. I may be the only person on PKF with a complete quiver. I believe a few people have and are pleased with a lone kite here and there, particularly the 3.5m. I am a big fan of Single Skins, liking them for their compact size, ability to launch in low winds, and their big depower/gust handling capabilities. These qualities are found in many, many other kites as welll, but for me they come together nicely in the LS2s. I owned a complete quiver of Peak 2s and swore by them, tried a couple of Peak 3s which didn't work for me (single pulley per side DP resulting in too much bar pressure for my liking), and finally settled on the LS2s which I like a lot.

Assuming you and your hubby are sufficiently different in size (no, I'm not asking!) then your idea of the two of you being on two different sizes should work out well. I've got to say, however, that when the wind is strong on Ivanpah I want the 3.5m in the air and I weigh North of 225 lbs.

Bars - the adjustable width bar Born offers is sweet. I actually turned Steffen on to the bar a few years ago so I may be a tad biased, but it is nice to be able to tune up and tune down steering based on conditions. His kites just need all the lines to be the same length just like other DP kites so any bar should work that does that. His bar is a good quality and wouldn't steer you wrong. It's expensive, but so are all good bars.

The LS2s are low aspect ratio kites that aren't what you'd call "lifty" and they are effective at letting off steam when the gusts come through. They stay generally well behaved when you pull in the trim lines, and doing so allows you to massively depower them. I've been on Ivanpah with the winds over 40 mph and had safe feeling fun with the 3.5m trimmed up.

A downside of the LS2s is that as SS they need a lot of bridles to maintain structure in the air. They have a lot of bridles and you will spend time keeping the bridles not tangled. Price you pay for SS, no way around it. This can be a pain in the seat meat sometimes and something to consider.

As for snow kiting, the nicest high wind kite I ever skied under was the 6m Ozone Access with Re-Ride. That is in my mind the ultimate high wind snow kite. I stopped snow kiting a few years ago at the request of my wife and only buggy now. If I were still snowkiting I may have kept a 6m Access in my quiver for just "those" days. Never did snowkite with the LS2s but I suspect they would do nicely.

Good luck!

Quote: Originally posted by mahgnillig

Thanks Windstruck, this is just the kind of info I was looking for. My hubby and I are sized differently enough that he should be on a kite one size larger than me (used to be two sizes!), which is why I think the shared quiver will work. We're looking for the most economical way to to do this, so sharing seems like a good idea! While I'd love to have a full set of Ozone Access kites at my disposal they are really expensive. The thing that draws me toward single skins is that they seem to be good value and they also pack up much smaller/lighter than the kites we have, while still giving you good performance (as long as you're not jumping). If you were going to look for a used bar to use with the Longstars, what would you choose?

I'm afraid I'm not much help in the "which bar should you buy department". If nobody else jumps in you might want to create a WANTED thread with your question about a used bar and see if you get bites that way.

As for the Ozone Access V6 or V7 (the versions with Re-Ride), the only two sizes I would concern yourselves with are the 6m for you and the 8m for your hubby (who I assume is now one size smaller than before, not the other possibility :P ). Larger Access kites are a big disappointment IMHO and the 4m really will never get used. If it's blowing hard enough for the 4m Access to be the right call over the 6m then you have bigger things to be thinking about like dodging flying debris. Maybe on a dry lake bed with low rolling resistance and winds well above 30 mph, but in snow a 4m Access just won't see much use. I'm taking that from Tami (UtahTami) an accomplished snowkiter and buggy queen in her own right (female world speed record holder in the buggy). She is mighty but on the, err, vertically challenged, side, coming in I'd suspect in the 5 foot 100 lb range or thereabouts (each inch and ounce being full of steam, nerve, pep, and general moxie by the way :D ). She owned and didn't really end up using the 4m Access if I recall correctly.

I agree that the SS are supreme in the pack-down-small category. Hard to beat half the skins and no baffling. Bridling just packs down tighter even if it is a pain in the seat meat when it gets tangled which it will do more so than with comparable twin skinned kites.

The SS kites you are mentioning (Peaks and LS2s) are low aspect kites which is why they aren't ideal for jumping. The soon-to-be-released Born-Kite RaceStars, for example, are high AR kites and would be more "lifty" than other SS kites. There isn't anything inherent in SS that make them worse for jumping (or better for staying on the ground as intended if that is the way you are looking at it); rather, it is just that the main SS kites on the commercial market (Peaks, LS2s, NS3s) are all low AR kites. Maybe there is some other subtle difference too but I bet that's mainly it.

Good luck!

It's been far too long! Time for some good old fashion Born-Porn... :karate:

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Quote: Originally posted by Cerebite

Beautiful images, I particularly like the sunset shot with the light coming through the kite.

A right and proper "vapor trail". Not garish and overstated like some vapor trails we know.

"A right and proper "vapor trail". Not garish and overstated like some vapor trails we know. "

That is because you run engines with governors on them rather than wide open like a certain friend who just had to buy a [not three, a ] tyre.