Power Kite Forum - Tip the scales - Hornet, Beamer, Soulfly, etc.?

Tip the scales - Hornet, Beamer, Soulfly, etc.?

MichKite - 28-4-2017 at 12:06 AM

Another noob here asking the same question, what kite to buy. I've been reading for dozens of hours the last couple weeks, but I'm a typical sufferer of analysis paralysis and hoping for a push. Even though I've read enough to know the answer borders on "they're all great kites," certain statements here and there make it hard to decide.

I've decided on a 3M as per the usual recommendation, but unsure of model.

Where are you? Southeast Michigan
Where do you fly? Inland park is most convenient, some beaches when I can.
What kiting experience do you already have? Flown Prism Synapse 170 a few times, only one day with good pulling winds.
What aspect of powerkiting are you interested in? Strictly static. I injure easily and the remoteness of traction sport locations would make it too rare for the expense. I like the pull of static, and some stunting is interesting too.
What are your local winds like? Google says Detroit area avg 9mph. The one good day was a bit gusty.
How much do you weigh? 6'2", 200lbs.
What kind of budget are you looking at? I can go in the $300+, but everyone loves a bargain.

The main choices are (and not all may be accurate as I read things here and there, cluttered by different model years, opinions, etc.):

Peter Lynn Hornet 3M. Good all around, handles gusts, A/R 3.0, best look IMO. Some statements lead me to believe it's more boring than others, perhaps because of the lower aspect ratio.

HQ Beamer 3M. Good all around, always recommended, A/R 3.5, OK design. Higher friction in lines so able to get fewer twists? Less gust control may pull me off my feet, roll an already less than stellar ankle.

PKD Buster Soulfly Pro 3.3M. Good all around, good bargain (though I never see prices to know how good), A/R 3.4, OK design. 3.3 too big? Lower price because of fewer features (ex. no sewn bridles)? I really don't know if this is "better" than others or people just like the equal quality at lower a price, but people seem to be big fans.

These come up the most and so I really didn't want to continue further analysis into the other options of Fexifoil Rage, Skydog, Prism Tensor, etc. I like the Tensor look and handle/bar combo, but that's probably not needed and not many talk the Tensor up.

Some day I may venture into a smaller foil for more speed/stunt, a Rev, or make a Symphony 2.2.4, but for now I think a 3M is a good start. May pick up a Symphony Beach 2.2 as an in-betweener on the cheap, but may disagree once I try a 4 line.

Sorry for the novel, and I appreciate any help even though I think the "you'll be happy with any of them" will be true. Not a big kite area, so nowhere to try before I buy.

MichKite - 28-4-2017 at 12:09 AM

jimbocz - 28-4-2017 at 01:11 AM

My personal opinion is that you are right, they are all very similar kites designed for exactly what you want to use them for.

Friction in lines that you mentioned makes no difference. The difference between 3 and 3.3 meters makes very little difference. Sewn bridles? You'll never notice.

I would take a look at price, the quality of the bag, kite killers and ground stake. I've had lots of experience with Beamers and found the quality of the bag, handles, kite killers and ground stake to be very good. The PKD stuff is allright, but not as good. For example, the PKD kite killers are more awkward to put on since you lay the strap across your wrist and then lay the other velcro strap across it, all one handed. The HQ killers stay in a circle, you put your wrist through and then pull it tight. Way nicer. At least that's the way it was last time I was using kite killers a lot, you can research this yourself.

Enjoy whichever one you end up buying.

Windstruck - 28-4-2017 at 03:23 AM

Welcome to PKF Mich! May you enjoy true traction kiting as much as the rest of us! I was a static flyer for many years and always really liked it. The 3m (or thereabouts) size you have landed on in your mind is "right-sized" for your needs and size. When the wind picks up you'll find yourself sitting down and digging in your heels into the grass to resist its force.

You certainly can't go wrong with any of the kites you are considering. Jim brought up some great points about considering the whole kit. Good stuff.

I'll throw one extra small wrench into the situation. You may want to take a gander at the 2.5m Peter Lynn Uniq Quad. This will check all the boxes for a good basic static flyer and is made by the same folks (and has the same level of quality) as the Hornet. Two things put it in play IMHO for your needs. First, it will be much lighter and smaller packed up. No, the other kites aren't big and heavy, but why not take small and light when you can get it? Second, and this may be a bigger deal, the Uniq Quad is a so-called "single skin" or SS kite. The others you are considering are so-called "foil" kites consisting of two skins separated with internal baffling. Think down sleeping bag. The advantage of SS in your hands will be that it will not react to being driven into the ground (again and again). When you are learning that will happen (again and again). SS kites by their very nature don't have "cells" to explode while foil kites do. A foil kite inflates to create a more or less rigid three dimensional shape in the air when filled with air and pulling hard on the lines. If you smash it full speed into the ground nose first like a Kamikaze on his final flight you may burst a cell in the foil. Not guaranteed but it can happen and will suck. There aren't any cells to burst in a SS kite so pile drive it into the ground at will.

One downside of SS kites versus foils is that SS kites need more extensive bridling (the little strings on the kite itself) to form and maintain its structure in the air. Those bridles can tangle and take a little (frustrating) time to sort out. Foils tend to have fewer and shorter bridle lines than SS kites which is nice. I'd also mention that the "wind window" is a bit smaller for the Uniq Quad than, for example, the PL Hornet. As a static flyer that likely won't matter much, but a larger wind window will make for a wider arc of powered flying as you fly the kite back and forth.

Like anything, SS versus foil is a trade off. Just food for thought. If you go foil you will be well served. I'm a particular fan of SS kites and just felt duty bound to bring them up! Good luck, please wear a helmet, and have fun!

oldben - 28-4-2017 at 05:14 AM

Yes welcome to the forum Mich!

As a noob myself I can tell you these folks here have been great patiently answering all my(many) questions
and giving great advice.

I started with a Symphony 2.2, still have it and love to fly it in high winds. Just bought a quiver of Rages. Excellent quality and on sale(kite only). I will agree on the 3/3.5 range as a good all around kite. Buy what you want/ like that is a good quality. You will have it a long time.

Go right for the 4 liners with handles and master them(Im working on it) Thats pretty much the basis of it all. Just watch your winds with a 3+ at first. If they kick up or are gusty you may have a wild ride. A 3+ will fly in lighter winds, a good place to start. I like my 3.5.

Have fun, and be safe!

MadHungarian - 28-4-2017 at 09:47 AM

I'm also relatively new to quad line power kiting (about 2 years but I'm retired and able to put in lots of flying time), only fly static, and am an inland flyer (variable and gusty winds).

You can tell from my signature what's in my quiver. I also have a full set of HQ Symphony Pro dual line foils and a PL Vibe II 2.6. I started on dual line about 4 years ago and still use the dual line foils to teach beginners. The advantage of having different sizes is you can adjust to different wind conditions.

My first quad line was the HQ Beamer V 4m. I'm 5' 8" and 155lbs. It's slow and stable which is good for beginners and gusty winds. There were a couple of times when the wind picked up that the kite was too much to handle; however, the key is to figure out your limits, know when to avoid the power zone, and pack up to fly another day. It's part of the learning process.

If you can find someone else in your area that is a more experienced pilot, that's a better way to go. I've been lucky to have a few experienced mentors who have helped me and let me fly their kites. Hopefully someone may shake out in your area due to your post here.

You are probably right about the 3m size to start.

I haven't had any issues with the build quality of the Beamer. I haven't owned a PL Hornet, but do have a Voltage (and Vibe II). From my limited sample set I'd say the PL kites are built better (like tanks) but sometimes need more wind and fly a bit sluggish. I've considered getting a 3m Hornet myself mainly to teach beginners.

I don't fly the Beamer much anymore. I would use it to teach beginners if the wind is lighter.

You might want to consider the Rage, probably a 2.5. The Rage is more fun to fly than the Beamer IMO. I have an original version 2.5 and a Rage II 1.8. I'd say the build quality is better on the original version but the Rage II is still good. Both have mesh on the leading edge which helps the cells to stay open. The Rage II has an AOA bridle adjustment which requires a bit of experimentation to figure out, but starting out you don't need to mess with it. Surprisingly I still get lots of use out of the 1.8. When the wind picks up and I'm tired of battling my other larger kites, I break out the 1.8. You've probably noticed the Rage II is available on Amazon (not the 3.5). It's kite only, so you would need to get handles and lines elsewhere.

Obviously the advantage of the Beamer or Hornet is they are RTF (ready to fly).

Hopefully some that helps. If you end up liking quad line power kiting you'll have a new time and money sink.

IFlyKites - 28-4-2017 at 11:34 AM

Have you considered a Spiderkites Smithi? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBAyb19p_Y
If you are into stunting, it would be a great choice! It has a nice pull to it when winds pick up, (although it is more for stunting than for power).

I've owned a 3m Hornet and have nothing bad to say about it. It's a nice, well behaved kite. Excellent quality as always with Peter Lynn. Having only a 3m will leave you wanting more kites so you might just have to get a 2m, then a 4m, 5m to compliment it :lol:

Take a look at Flexifoil Rages. 2.5m/3.5m sizes are perfect and have enough pull to drag you around.

Other options include Ozone Flow, Imp, Method, (these are discontinued so be on the lookout for when they pop up).

Buying used kites will give you a chance to catch a bargain so I suggest looking around PKF first and check classifieds frequently. Good luck with your search!

MichKite - 28-4-2017 at 11:45 AM

Thank you all for the help and welcome.

Jimbocz, you make a great point. If they're all good kites, I should look at what may separate them on other levels as opposed to imagining a minor detail greatly effecting flight. Price, quality of the accessories, looks, etc. may be a deciding factor.

Windstruck, I had actually considered the Uniq Quad because of it's durability. When I originally researched it I put it aside for two reasons. One, I didn't see anyone selling it in the States for quick and cheap shipping (any overseas shops worth buying from?). And two, I had read mention of it's limited window, which I believe was indeed straight from you.

That turned me off more since my wind days seemed weak as they were and thought a good window would increase my flyable days. Would that be accurate?

I haven't bombed the Synapse into the ground since day one. 3rd time out I was diving and turning at last second. My friend however continually bombs my Synapse, so not letting her near the quad for awhile if I go with cells.

Oldben, you're right this is a great forum and I've seen a lot of great and patient answers. I saw the Rage on sale at Amazon and was about to bite the other day until I saw that it was kite only. I tried to price out the full cost with lines and handles, and it brought it back up to around $320. Which was the same as the RTF 3M Hornet and Beamer, but at the reduced 2.5m size. Question though, if I bought one of the 3M RTF kites, could I use their lines/handles for the 2.5M Rage? Or do they not all have the same type of bridles and connections? Because it might be a good heavier wind kite to build a quiver with while on sale. Not sure how much of a hassle it is to disconnect and reconnect lines to various kites though.

MadHungarian, thanks for the info. Do you think your Rage is more fun than the Beamer because of the 4M size, making it more sluggish? Is the Rage on Amazon the II? I'm not sure what AOA bridle adjustment is. I've been spending a lot of time reading and trying to pick a kite that I haven't gotten into the details yet. I like the idea of adding a Rage, especially if I can use lines from an RTF kite I may buy.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any kiters while out, no talk in local area, and nothing for sale on Craigslist to suggest there is a local following. Being in Michigan by lakes there is kite surfing, but haven't seen any static kites. I'd love to find some MI folks in the area.

MichKite - 28-4-2017 at 11:54 AM

Hi IFlyKites, I have considered the Smithi. Seemed like another one devoid from retailers in the States. Plus, I wasn't sure if I wanted to concentrate on Power or Stunting for now. Ultimately I sided towards power for the pull and exercise as I consider a lot of stunting as well. Then when I have some practice in to where I can stunt better, may look into things like the Rev.

Do you think a 2.5M Rage has about the same pull as a 3M Hornet/Beamer? Aspect ratio is closer to the Beamer, so I imagine it gains a little even with smaller size.

The Imp Quattro was one of my first considered as I first stumbled upon AWindOfChange when looking to upgrade to 4 line. Of course as a noob I looked at price, not knowing which were the most recommended. The Imp was one of the cheaper ones. That site seems to sell all of the outdated models, as even the Beamer and Hornet are previous gen. Not saying that's a bad thing as I don't really know the differences between them.

I've been checking PKF For Sale and craigslist every day, so far nothing in the range I'm looking.

oldben - 28-4-2017 at 12:07 PM

As far as the Rages they all can fly on the same lines or any lines of proper poundage and equal length. If you dont have a 4 line set you can probably scare a set up here.

I have the 1.8, 2.5, and 4.7 Rage. The 3.5 is non existant at the moment. My 3.5 is a Cross Quattro. Its a cheaper kite but it flies well. A bit more sedate than the Rage 2.5. Havent flown the 4.7 yet. The Triple A adjuster is pretty cool in that it allows adjustment of the kites power/flying characteristics. All mine came with it.

I also have an older Beamer 5m. Havent flown it yet either but it seems a bridle party compared to my other kites. I believe the newer series has reduced bridles.

Then there are the Nasa kites.

IFlyKites - 28-4-2017 at 12:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MichKite

Hi IFlyKites, I have considered the Smithi. Seemed like another one devoid from retailers in the States. Plus, I wasn't sure if I wanted to concentrate on Power or Stunting for now. Ultimately I sided towards power for the pull and exercise as I consider a lot of stunting as well. Then when I have some practice in to where I can stunt better, may look into things like the Rev.

Do you think a 2.5M Rage has about the same pull as a 3M Hornet/Beamer? Aspect ratio is closer to the Beamer, so I imagine it gains a little even with smaller size.

The Imp Quattro was one of my first considered as I first stumbled upon AWindOfChange when looking to upgrade to 4 line. Of course as a noob I looked at price, not knowing which were the most recommended. The Imp was one of the cheaper ones. That site seems to sell all of the outdated models, as even the Beamer and Hornet are previous gen. Not saying that's a bad thing as I don't really know the differences between them.

I've been checking PKF For Sale and craigslist every day, so far nothing in the range I'm looking.

The 2.5m Rage flies quickly through the window and you will gain more pull through speed and as you work it. I would say the 2.5m Rage is equivalent to a 3m Hornet in terms of pull.

Personally, if I were to get only one static flying kite, it would have to be either the Flexifoil Rage 2.5m or a Peter Lynn ViperS 2.6m. Reason being is it will allow you to fly in higher winds later on, once you learn to fly it in lighter winds.

It may not drag you in lighter winds but it will still be fun to fly and teach you the power that power kites can generate. Don't be fooled by 2m kites, they can bite!

You can't go wrong with any of the 3m kites you mentioned.

Windstruck - 28-4-2017 at 12:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MichKite

Windstruck, I had actually considered the Uniq Quad because of it's durability. When I originally researched it I put it aside for two reasons. One, I didn't see anyone selling it in the States for quick and cheap shipping (any overseas shops worth buying from?). And two, I had read mention of it's limited window, which I believe was indeed straight from you.

That turned me off more since my wind days seemed weak as they were and thought a good window would increase my flyable days. Would that be accurate?

Ahh, you are a close scholar of these fine pages. Yes, it was me that wrote about the comparatively small wind window of the Uniq Quad. :cool:

Please appreciate that my comments at the time were geared towards its utility as I perceived it as a means of motive power, not for static flying. For static purposes as you are stating is how you will be using these fine kites you are choosing among, I for one don't think that a slightly diminished wind window would be a deterrent. Wind window and reaction of wind strength don't really have much to do with each other, btw, rather, the width of the wind window for a static flyer will be in how the pull feels on the handles as you sweep the kite back and forth downwind from where you are standing or sitting. The wider the wind window the broader a sweep you'll be able to achieve with reasonable pull on the lines. The Uniq Quad IMO had a band of high power about 90 degrees wide (or thereabouts) and then it dropped off as you swept it farther and farther to one side or the other. The 4m Hornet which I owned at the time (my Uniq Quad was a 4.5m) seemed to have a broader window of strong pull when I flew it static. Without the two kites to compare back to back with each other I'm not sure if I would have reacted to the Uniq's window. I was actively looking for differences between those two kites so I may have been nitpicking a bit.

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Then there are the Nasa kites.

Did somebody mention NASA kites? :D Don't even get me started... :lol:

MadHungarian - 28-4-2017 at 01:54 PM

It is the Rage II being sold on Amazon. As was stated, the 3.5 is out of stock.

I fly my Rages on HQ line sets and handles that came with the Beamer and Toxic. Works fine. Not much of a hassle to change out the kite you are flying on the line set. I typically don't do it in the field but you can.

Yes, I find the Rage 2.5 and more so the 1.8 to be more zippy and nimble than the Beamer 4m.

Buying either a 3m Beamer or Hornet RTF will get you started. You'll have a line set then. Then you can consider buying kite only after that. The Rage 2.5 is going to be close to a 3m Beamer or Hornet, so you might think about a 1.8 for days when the wind is stronger.

You can make yourself crazy weighing all the options.

trancein1 - 28-4-2017 at 01:55 PM

I posted a Radsail 3m in the classified section if anyone is interested, only used a few times and still crisp..$150 shipped from IL.

Blitzhound - 28-4-2017 at 02:01 PM

My first kite was a Beamer. I really enjoy it still. Good quality kite. I can't speak to the others as I've never flown them. I wouldn't worry about blowing out cells to much. If you'd seen how many times I've pile drived my Beamer into the ground you'd think I was chopping wood with it. Haha. I also have an HQ Alpha. It's nothing fancy but it's cheap and it's a fun kite to fly. It's mostly for the kids. But I enjoy it too and I think they've chopped a lot of wood with that kite. If I may suggest though. Buy a used one. You can usually pick up a used kite for almost half the price as a new one. And they fly the same for less money. Although there is something to be said about the crispy crinkle of a new kite, Hehe! I don't think you'd be disappointed in any of the kites you've mentioned.

Windstruck - 28-4-2017 at 02:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Blitzhound

I wouldn't worry about blowing out cells to much. If you'd seen how many times I've pile drived my Beamer into the ground you'd think I was chopping wood with it.

That's a good visual right there! :lol:

I've chopped, split, and stacked a lot of cord wood in my day and that's a good analogy. Glad to hear the risk isn't too great. Lord knows I've absolutely slammed many a kite into the ground, though these have been mostly of the SS variety, thus my naivete about foil fragility. Twice I've seen blown cells at Ivanpah which is what had me thinking about that. Rock hard surface there; maybe grass is a tad more forgiving, maybe just bad luck I saw.

I agree with others. Got to get something in your hands and start flying! :thumbup:

MichKite - 28-4-2017 at 04:55 PM

Just got back from flying the Synapse 170 and I've got to say two things. One, I need a bigger kite. This thing does not pull much, except in a really good wind. Two, I'd say my inland wind is gusty. Not gusty strong per se, but inconsistent gusty. I'll try to hit the beach tomorrow, but last time it wasn't off the lake and was inconsistent gusty too. 3M Hornet seems to be one recommended for gusts.

Oldben, IFlyKites and MadHungarian, you're making a good argument for the 2.5M Rage. Any recommendations on lines/handles? The sets I priced out a few days ago were just a quick sample to see the cost and it would have meant buying from 3 places for the 3 parts. I do still like the idea of getting a 3M RTF and adding a Rage for some quiver variety, but MadH makes a good point that 1.8 may be the better second addition if I go that route.

Windstruck, is there a place to buy the Uniq in the States? I think I know how non-Americans feel now when it's difficult to buy things. Always seems like they get the short end of the variety and price stick, but with with kite shopping I keep ending up on overseas sites. Numerous brands/models that I'm not finding on US sites.

Trancein1, I'm not familiar with the Radsail, I'll have to look into it.

Blitzhound, thank you for the comments on durability, it's reassuring. I've avoided dive bombing after day one, but I'm sure I'll still do it as I learn and push the envelope.

All 3 and the Rage are still in the running, even though not much push for the PKD so unless it's a steal it might be out. Sure, I'd like to buy used but I don't want to wait too much longer as vacay is coming up. Leaning toward Hornet for looks and gust, Beamer for all-in-one fun, and Rage if building a set isn't a hassle or maybe just as an addition. I know the new hobby drill, spend money.

Windstruck - 28-4-2017 at 05:34 PM

You might try Big Mike down in Texas. I bought my Uniq from him a couple of years ago.

https://bigmikeskites.com

I notice he doesn't list them on his website at the moment but if you contact him through the site I suspect he could get one for you. Mike is a good trustworthy guy and a PKF member of long, good standing.

MichKite - 28-4-2017 at 06:17 PM

BigMike was the first place I checked, and likely where I'll go if I choose the Beamer or Hornet. I'll see what he says about the Uniq. I'll be on vacay soon and should have a chance at some good lake winds I won't want to pass up.

Bladerunner - 29-4-2017 at 08:08 AM

If I was in your spot I would be seriously considering the Radsail .
This kite will do everything you want it to and leave you with money towards your next kite.

As you seem to know that the Revolution kites will be endless stunting fun.

IFlyKites - 29-4-2017 at 03:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MichKite

Oldben, IFlyKites and MadHungarian, you're making a good argument for the 2.5M Rage. Any recommendations on lines/handles? The sets I priced out a few days ago were just a quick sample to see the cost and it would have meant buying from 3 places for the 3 parts. I do still like the idea of getting a 3M RTF and adding a Rage for some quiver variety, but MadH makes a good point that 1.8 may be the better second addition if I go that route.

If I were to get the 2.5m Rage, get it complete with lines/handles. The flexifoil handles it comes with are amazing and probably the best I have used for handles on FB kites.

another SE michigan guy

tomdiving - 29-4-2017 at 06:01 PM

michkite - want to try a rage 2.5? say when. hornet 3m? same. will have a rage 1.8 on tuesday, if the shipping info is correct.
what about a 3.5? skydog powerfoil 3.5 for 212 bucks interest you? i'll dig up the link, if so.
lines/handles? pansh still has their half off sale going. stuff ships very fast. i'm using a pansh set on my rage right now, actually.
i have a version 2 beamer 3m coming from the UK any time now. you can play with that as well.
i'll likely convert a rush pro 350 to 4 line soon. it's 3.5m, and should mod very easily.
i'm in lincoln park. just south of deeetroit.
tom
tomdiving@yahoo.com

acampbell - 30-4-2017 at 04:21 AM

Still don't know why I ever sold my Rage 3.5. It was my go-to kite when the sands smoked (winds 20 + mph). Flixifoil line sets are great with those little pull-tabs on the loops.

MichKite, your choices and reasoning are sound. At this point go for cost or aesthetics.

Avoid Pansh as they have a reputation for needing tweaking; something that a newbie might be frustrated with.

abkayak - 30-4-2017 at 06:16 AM

3.3 soulfly is an awesome kite...jusayin

WELDNGOD - 30-4-2017 at 11:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MichKite

PKD Buster Soulfly Pro 3.3M. Good all around, good bargain (though I never see prices to know how good), A/R 3.4, OK design. 3.3 too big? Lower price because of fewer features (ex. no sewn bridles)?

Who told you that lie? I'm holding one in my hands and the bridles are VERY SEWN.

WELDNGOD - 30-4-2017 at 11:50 AM

And I have not seen another Mfr. with a clam cleat to tune the brakes except PKD.

rtz - 30-4-2017 at 12:15 PM

All good choices. I have them all. They will all run 30+mph in a kite buggy.

The current model Hornet is a very well behaved and refined kite. I didn't care much for the previous model Hornet II.

The current Beamer VI is the best model yet of the Beamers. Very similar to to the Hornet; yet slightly different to the point that to this day; I can't yet quantify the differences. If you could fly them both back to back; you would agree they are ever so slightly different.

The older Beamers were very different kites. The Beamer IV and older were very slow kites and gave the kite the reputation it has to those who flew it back then. The Beamer V was better; but not nearly as good as the current model.

Both those kites used to be far lower cost. They are so pricey now; they are basically pricing themselves out of their own markets.

The Rage is more of an "advanced" kite. You might not initially think it is as refined as the two above kites; but you will never outgrow it as it is more "stunt kite" like in my opinion. The downside to that is; initially flying it you might think it's not that great; but in time you would master it and appreciate it.

That's not to say the above kites you could outgrow; at least not in a kite buggy. You would eventually just be able to fly them in stronger and stronger winds. Much different then trying to anchor down all that power when static flying.

The PKD is very similar to the Rage in both its shape and flying characteristics to the point I have to wonder if it was influenced by and inspired by the Rage. Each of them can "propeller spin" on their center access. The hornet/beamer don't do it exactly the same.

You'll have to contact Jeff Earl(bigkid) directly to see if he has any 3.3's on hand and the price.

Personally; the Pansh Flux for the price can't be beat. Grab one and fly the heck out of it. You might get bored of static flying kites. Or you might want some kite that is bigger or smaller. At Least you only spent $60 or $80 on it and not $300+ like these other brands are wanting you to do.

I have the 1.4, 2, 3, 4, 5m Flux kites and fly the heck out of them and have been for the past year or more with the kite buggy. They will run with the best of them and I would love to race some people flying other kites to see how well they hold their own.

I would say though I would consider the Flux a more advanced kite. As said with the Rage; at first you might think "this kite is piece of junk"; but once you learn its quirks and nuances; you can deal with them and the kite will really shine.

Granted; with the Beamers and Hornets; they don't have any quirks or nuances and they "just fly". They fly real nice indeed; but I guess I get bored with them and choose something more quirky to liven things up a bit and see what I can make those other kites do.

Just depends on what you want.

Personally I couldn't decide and still wouldn't and couldn't so I just bought them all.

adambweird - 30-4-2017 at 05:24 PM

Hey Michkite and tomdiving, if you guys ever find yourselves down around Toledo, im not far away and i know of a couple decent spots for static and motion.

MichKite - 30-4-2017 at 08:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by IFlyKites

Quote: Originally posted by MichKite

If I were to get the 2.5m Rage, get it complete with lines/handles. The flexifoil handles it comes with are amazing and probably the best I have used for handles on FB kites.

They do look like some nice handles, where others just seem like foam around a bar. Not saying that's bad as I have no experience. Good thing Rage is on sale at amazon, because if I go with it and it wasn't, the full Flexifoil package is the most expensive.

MichKite - 30-4-2017 at 08:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by tomdiving

michkite - want to try a rage 2.5? say when. hornet 3m? same. will have a rage 1.8 on tuesday, if the shipping info is correct.
what about a 3.5? skydog powerfoil 3.5 for 212 bucks interest you? i'll dig up the link, if so.
lines/handles? pansh still has their half off sale going. stuff ships very fast. i'm using a pansh set on my rage right now, actually.
i have a version 2 beamer 3m coming from the UK any time now. you can play with that as well.
i'll likely convert a rush pro 350 to 4 line soon. it's 3.5m, and should mod very easily.
i'm in lincoln park. just south of deeetroit.
tom
tomdiving@yahoo.com

Do you believe this guy! I hit the jackpot with a local guy that has a quiver of many of my questioned options and more, and he's willing to let me try them. I couldn't ask for such luck and I'm extremely grateful. Tom, I'll be contacting you of course, but had to make a public thank you as well!

MichKite - 30-4-2017 at 08:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by acampbell

Still don't know why I ever sold my Rage 3.5. It was my go-to kite when the sands smoked (winds 20 + mph). Flixifoil line sets are great with those little pull-tabs on the loops.

MichKite, your choices and reasoning are sound. At this point go for cost or aesthetics.

Avoid Pansh as they have a reputation for needing tweaking; something that a newbie might be frustrated with.

Pull tabs for some type of tying convenience I imagine?

Thanks. After I try some with Tom I may have a better idea, but price and aesthetics are clear motivators right now. One of my weaknesses is paying more for minor preferences, like looks.

Haven't read much good about Pansh, but there seem to be some things that people like of theirs. Like the Flux mentioned earlier, or lines maybe? Hadn't considered them yet though.

MichKite - 30-4-2017 at 08:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak

3.3 soulfly is an awesome kite...jusayin

And I appreciate another vote of confidence as it's got a great price!

Do you have the Standard or Pro, as it seems the Standard is the one available at the moment?

MichKite - 30-4-2017 at 08:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

Quote: Originally posted by MichKite

PKD Buster Soulfly Pro 3.3M. Good all around, good bargain (though I never see prices to know how good), A/R 3.4, OK design. 3.3 too big? Lower price because of fewer features (ex. no sewn bridles)?

Who told you that lie? I'm holding one in my hands and the bridles are VERY SEWN.

Haha, as I mentioned I didn't know if it was accurate info, as there's a lot of old info floating around and they don't all apply to the different versions.

I had read it from this 2010 article that was a big help in understanding some basics and pointing me in some good directions. http://www.coastalwindsports.com/ChoosingAKite.html

I knew it was old info, but a lot of all-in-one kite info articles seem to be.

MichKite - 30-4-2017 at 09:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rtz

All good choices. I have them all. They will all run 30+mph in a kite buggy.

The current model Hornet is a very well behaved and refined kite. I didn't care much for the previous model Hornet II.

The current Beamer VI is the best model yet of the Beamers. Very similar to to the Hornet; yet slightly different to the point that to this day; I can't yet quantify the differences. If you could fly them both back to back; you would agree they are ever so slightly different.

The older Beamers were very different kites. The Beamer IV and older were very slow kites and gave the kite the reputation it has to those who flew it back then. The Beamer V was better; but not nearly as good as the current model.

Both those kites used to be far lower cost. They are so pricey now; they are basically pricing themselves out of their own markets.

The Rage is more of an "advanced" kite. You might not initially think it is as refined as the two above kites; but you will never outgrow it as it is more "stunt kite" like in my opinion. The downside to that is; initially flying it you might think it's not that great; but in time you would master it and appreciate it.

That's not to say the above kites you could outgrow; at least not in a kite buggy. You would eventually just be able to fly them in stronger and stronger winds. Much different then trying to anchor down all that power when static flying.

The PKD is very similar to the Rage in both its shape and flying characteristics to the point I have to wonder if it was influenced by and inspired by the Rage. Each of them can "propeller spin" on their center access. The hornet/beamer don't do it exactly the same.

You'll have to contact Jeff Earl(bigkid) directly to see if he has any 3.3's on hand and the price.

Personally; the Pansh Flux for the price can't be beat. Grab one and fly the heck out of it. You might get bored of static flying kites. Or you might want some kite that is bigger or smaller. At Least you only spent $60 or $80 on it and not $300+ like these other brands are wanting you to do.

I have the 1.4, 2, 3, 4, 5m Flux kites and fly the heck out of them and have been for the past year or more with the kite buggy. They will run with the best of them and I would love to race some people flying other kites to see how well they hold their own.

I would say though I would consider the Flux a more advanced kite. As said with the Rage; at first you might think "this kite is piece of junk"; but once you learn its quirks and nuances; you can deal with them and the kite will really shine.

Granted; with the Beamers and Hornets; they don't have any quirks or nuances and they "just fly". They fly real nice indeed; but I guess I get bored with them and choose something more quirky to liven things up a bit and see what I can make those other kites do.

Just depends on what you want.

Personally I couldn't decide and still wouldn't and couldn't so I just bought them all.

Thank you, that's some great input and I can see you have a lot of kites to base it on!

These differences may be tiny and not something I could pick up at first, but the reported behavior of the Hornet is something I'm liking.

Other than the unquantifiable, is there something specific that makes the Beamer VI better than the previous years? Like the quality, details, handles, etc.? Or you just mean it's flight?

PKD and Rage are big on my list right now as well. I started this thread to narrow it down, but really it's just making each sound better and adding some more.

The PKD has a great price, but it's the Standard and not the Pro at the moment. That may be fine, just something I'll have to weigh. Which do you have or have you used both and find both equally capable for the most part?

I'm not seeing an $80 price on the Pansh Flux though. The 3M is $160 for kite only, and $238 RTF. That's a good amount more than the PKD standard 3.3, and only about $50 less than a Hornet. Unless their sale ended and I missed the boat.

Thanks again!

MichKite - 30-4-2017 at 09:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by adambweird

Hey Michkite and tomdiving, if you guys ever find yourselves down around Toledo, im not far away and i know of a couple decent spots for static and motion.

Sounds good, that's not too far of a drive! What kind of motion do you do?

tomdiving - 30-4-2017 at 09:18 PM

the pansh stuff shows the 50% off price when you add it to your cart. the 3m is not available. the 3m blaze is apparently very lifty.
fly my flux 2m before you go that route.
the pull tabs on the lines makes it very easy to remove the line loops at either the kite or handle. I don't swap out lines/kites/handles normally, I just leave everything together and grab the kite du jour.
tom

MichKite - 30-4-2017 at 10:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by tomdiving

the pansh stuff shows the 50% off price when you add it to your cart. the 3m is not available. the 3m blaze is apparently very lifty.
fly my flux 2m before you go that route.
the pull tabs on the lines makes it very easy to remove the line loops at either the kite or handle. I don't swap out lines/kites/handles normally, I just leave everything together and grab the kite du jour.
tom

Ahh, I see the sale now, thanks.

rtz - 1-5-2017 at 05:32 AM

The current model Beamer flies nicer then the previous models. I only have the Pro versions of the PKD.

On the Pansh; it's a few dollars cheaper to add lines and handles separate. The RTF kit contains a lot of miscellaneous stuff. The Pansh handles are basic and Pansh needs to change how they route the lines through the handles. I just got done rebuilding a pair. Will see how long they hold up.

rtz

tomdiving - 1-5-2017 at 06:39 AM

it looks like you plan to do a whole lotta handles, with the huge roll of tubing.
is it just a straight shot through, or do you have the tubing secured somehow within the handle?
tom

rtz - 1-5-2017 at 07:09 AM

I cut an opening in the middle of the plastic tubing and tied a knot inside the handle so the plastic stays one continuous piece.

tomdiving - 1-5-2017 at 07:12 AM

brilliant!

WELDNGOD - 1-5-2017 at 07:25 AM

Small PKDs in use : 1.5m https://vimeo.com/163198317
(this one is a new guy I taught to fly in low winds then gave him a 1.5m buster out in big wind 30+ LOL https://vimeo.com/153709633 )
3.3mBuster soulflyPRO https://vimeo.com/145024222
2.8m PKD Century II https://vimeo.com/142196854
2.2m Buster and 2.8 Century II https://vimeo.com/80200976
4.4m buster pro w/ ATB https://vimeo.com/79060742
1.5m buster and 2.2m buster https://vimeo.com/65980936

MichKite - 1-5-2017 at 08:50 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rtz

The current model Beamer flies nicer then the previous models. I only have the Pro versions of the PKD.

On the Pansh; it's a few dollars cheaper to add lines and handles separate. The RTF kit contains a lot of miscellaneous stuff. The Pansh handles are basic and Pansh needs to change how they route the lines through the handles. I just got done rebuilding a pair. Will see how long they hold up.

Thanks. I won't be able to get the Pro it seems, but Standard is still quite a possibility.

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

Small PKDs in use : 1.5m https://vimeo.com/163198317
(this one is a new guy I taught to fly in low winds then gave him a 1.5m buster out in big wind 30+ LOL https://vimeo.com/153709633 )
3.3mBuster soulflyPRO https://vimeo.com/145024222
2.8m PKD Century II https://vimeo.com/142196854
2.2m Buster and 2.8 Century II https://vimeo.com/80200976
4.4m buster pro w/ ATB https://vimeo.com/79060742
1.5m buster and 2.2m buster https://vimeo.com/65980936

Nice videos! If I had a beach like that I bet I'd be switching to motion real soon. Impressive what these smaller sizes can do, though I'm sure it's some pretty good wind off the ocean too. 3M seems overkill for the beginner in that area.

WELDNGOD - 2-5-2017 at 05:44 AM

3m is still the standard beginner kite here. I tend to like higher winds so I seek out noreasters and tropical systems. I would not recommend that to a newby.

MichKite - 2-5-2017 at 08:44 PM

Is there a wind speed to kite size chart for static flying I could use as a guideline to know what size is appropriate for given winds? I've searched, but they all seem to be for traction sports, mostly kite surfing.

I'm sure some comes with experience, but a guideline could be good. Something to make sure I don't take out the wrong size in too strong of a wind (or gusts) and get lifted up or supermanned. I'm 200lbs.

WELDNGOD - 2-5-2017 at 08:47 PM

No one chart will cover all kites . Every kind and brand is different. It does not work like that. Each model will have it's own wind range.

WELDNGOD - 2-5-2017 at 08:48 PM

and each size as well

MichKite - 2-5-2017 at 10:19 PM

True, forgot about that part.

Bladerunner - 3-5-2017 at 06:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MichKite

Is there a wind speed to kite size chart for static flying I could use as a guideline to know what size is appropriate for given winds? I've searched, but they all seem to be for traction sports, mostly kite surfing.

I'm sure some comes with experience, but a guideline could be good. Something to make sure I don't take out the wrong size in too strong of a wind (or gusts) and get lifted up or supermanned. I'm 200lbs.

Most companies supply a chart showing their models wind range. Size down a bit for static.

The important thing is to size your kite for the gusts. NOT the average wind speed. It is the gusts that will get you in trouble.

The Flux isn't too bad a kite but ..... The money you save going in you will lose on selling.

acampbell - 3-5-2017 at 07:23 AM

Yeah, charts that come with kites are often the wishful thinking of the designer and/ or predicated on the skill of the pilot, which, ironically negates the value of the chart in the first place. For example, when a large foil is said to be usable in 4 mph winds, this really requires much more skill than you would think. Sme with small kites in higher winds. My Rage 3.5 was my go-to kite for high winds over 20 mph, but only after a lot of time and my confidence in launching at the edge of the window.

I think it best that you start with any kite and start in conservative conditions at the risk of being under-powered. Then you can extrapolate from there based on your mounting experience and knowledge of local conditions.

Bladerunner is right of course about sizing for gusts; many here will tell you that their woors spanking was from smaller kites.

MichKite - 3-5-2017 at 06:31 PM

Thanks. I was thinking the gusts were what I was going to base things on if there were a chart, as I imagine the surprise pull is more dangerous than a clean wind of the same speed. I'll be conservative and learn to fly the window safely.

MichKite - 16-5-2017 at 08:36 PM

Thought I'd update everyone here so you can finally get some rest after waiting with excitement. With the help of everyone here and assistance by TomDiving I settled on the Rage 1.8 as my first quad line kite. Several reasons made it a great first choice. One, it's small and quick. Two, it was on sale. Three, it's a beast in its own right for static flying, and I could use some time to work my way up before getting yanked all over the place by a bigger kite. Four, the adjustable bridle makes it more than one size kite in my mind. It seemed to have a definite effect on the strength of pull it had.

The adjustable bridle is a great feature to get more than one demeanor out of one kite, and I'm a fan of having options. Especially in a first purchase. Plus, the way it pulls is a hell of a workout and the bigger ones just kick my ass for now.

Thank you everyone for your help. I've still got my eye on the 2.5 Rage or 3M Hornet for a step up, but will gauge the 1.8 for now. If my winds don't pull enough, I'll bite soon enough.