Wanna See My Woodie ?(ah landsalier that is)

So while watching so many kite vids it was inevitable I would become intrigued with a landsailer. With all my $$ in kites the only way to get a LS was to fab one. After looking at a zillion pics and vids this is what I have so far. Its built in the same dimensions(more or less) as the Manta.

While I am an accomplished welder the cost of metal pushed me to use wood.
Pressure treat to be exact. Only because its hard pine and relatively cheap. The spine is a box beam with a 2 by axle beam, holding 3/4 axles mounted with 1250lb lifting eyes. Recycled mountain bike parts were used also.

Sail will be a poly sail(read tarp). I have made these in the past with excellent results. Will be version of skiff sail at around 44sq ft. Initally any way, the mast will be 1.5" emt with a welded extension to get the right height.
Steering was the trickiest part getting the geometry worked out. Its a cross over system. With a ton of taildragger time I have to have push right go right otherwise I would wind up in the bushes. Stole one of our patio chairs for a seat. The seat and position are really comfortable.

This is the rough out stage,ignore all the junk hardware and rough edges.

Constructive criticism welcome. What the heck do I know any way!

Here is an easier way to do it. Well tested. Sailed one last year at JIBE.






BTW - Unless you just like to build things, old windsurfing sails, masts and booms can be had very cheap, even if you do build the wooden parts of the "boat" itself.

Older Prototype

YABBA-DABBA-DOOO!
Who needs brakes when you can just put your feet down. WILMAAA!!!...

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

I never considered pedal steering from an airplane pilot's perspective as I've never been one. A few years back (OK more than a few) I was a tricycle pilot and now I'm a buggy pilot and they both steer the same way. :D

I have some glider and single engine time, so I get the idea. After all, most all airplanes are tricycles when on the ground. But in the context of a sailing craft and a ground vehicle, (push right, go left, etc) I have always found the conventional trike configuration intuitive and never gave it a second thought until now.

I'm afraid that in such a cross-over rig, if facing a brown-trowser moment, my trike/ sailing instincts would kick in. Kind of like learning to drive in the UK on the other side of the road.

All this aside, I think it's a great cool, project. I love making things from wood and admire the rugged, rustic nostalgic flare of your rig. Love the frond fork and accompanying frame! Who sacrificed their bike for that? That looks like a pretty acute rake to the front fork, but rake-and-trail is a pretty spooky science and I do not claim to be an expert on that.

I hope you can bring it to JIBE. With a good east wind, you can drive it right down Rt. 17 from McIntosh County.

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Great pic Ed. Theres a vid of a guy sailing his Sunfish down the road that he converted on to a wheeled carrier. I also saw what looked like maybe a Catalina 22 sailing down the road on maybe a converted trailer? Just too cool! I have noticed there are different types of surf sails. How do you tell a race sail? Whats this one? I realize its a smaller sail but its reasonable on shipping. Also my mast wont flex(I hope) like the carbon masts. Wonder what that does to sail efficiency? http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEIL-PRYDE-HI-WIND-4-2-WINDSURFING-S... I can buy a very nicely made sail for a Sunflower boat for around $100 new but Im afraid it has too much area, around 59sq ft. I should be able to get around 44sq ft from a $12 9x12 tarp allowing for edging it. Now its a color choice, blue, silver, brown or green.. The best thing is to buy a sail kit from Polysail. Its white and is especially made for sails.

Ben,

IMHO - the sail on ebay is worthless, even though it looks to be in good shape. It is probably at least 30 yeas old. I used a sail like that when I learned to windsurf back in 96 and it was way out of date then.(You could probably get one for free or close to it and if so it might work. I don't know much about land yacht sails though.) And you would need a mast and boom specific to that kind of sail. You'd probably be a lot better off building your own.

Windsurf sails require a lot of downhaul tension so they require masts that a quite strong and can bend a lot. The amount of downhaul needed and bend of masts changed over the over the years. The really old sails (vintage the ones in the picture 80's) required much more outhaul tension to get the proper shape and required a very long boom.

Race sails (for windsurfers) generally have a number of camber inducers (plastic parts that attach the mast) which put a fixed shape into the sail. They make the sail more rigid and able to hold its shape at higher speeds and higher upwind angles. I don't think you really need a race sail. Check with JimSSI or Angus, there may be some ex-windsurfers in the area with some old gear they would like to dump.

Hi Ben ...
That were nice built .

We don't have blokart here , but the other way around by make setup of landsail to existing buggy .
that have option to transform to landsail or kitebuggy .

now , more and more my kitting buddy converting their buggy to landsail here .
as what Randy say , it is the safe bet when the wind gone crazy and expecting a downpour .

i don't convert my buggy yet but expecting to do so near future .

this picture are landsail at my local spot . 2 picture with windsurfer sail are latest version ( note : they are on tight and close racing ) , while 1 is early version .

I guess this is what the insight so far . can't be sure effective enough to your landsail project , as the construction quite much different .


for sail , the windsurfer sail is the way to go , can't tell it racing sail or not , but please note it higher AR compare to the original low aspect . The low aspect sail have a lot of side pull easy to lift the wheel without make forward speed .

Race sails (for windsurfers) generally have a number of camber inducers (plastic parts that attach the mast) which put a fixed shape into the sail. They make the sail more rigid and able to hold its shape at higher speeds and higher upwind angles. I don't think you really need a race sail .

this camber inducers i could see it critical , to maintain the stiff and tight .otherwise it keep flapping and annoy to hear , and this sail will make un predictable sudden turn left or right while you tacking .

then we add the side brace from mast to rear axle to prevent overall chassis twisting and make it super stable .

Yeah - windsurf sails work great on my landboard, though I think it takes more wind and is certainly more tiring than using a kite.

Here is a picture of the sail I will donate to the project. You would need a windsurf mast and a mast base though. The sail has a tear in the next to the top panel which I believe has been fixed very well, and is in a part of the sail that is not under much pressure.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

Saw you riding Monday, you sure had that thing under control and it looked great!... hope you'll be back some more this week!!!

Thanks!

I had a blast!

First time ever land sailing, wasnt too smooth at first but by the end of the day was getting it pretty good. The pulleys on the rigging were junk, so finally just removed them and ran the rope thru the eye bolts. Will move to proper sailboat rigging, and that should have it.

Now for a proper paint job!

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Yeah Blade, I have to admit Im pretty infatuated with land sailing. Have not buggyed yet. Was hoping to get back down this afternoon, but its looking like an unexpected trip to Atlanta is in the works as my wifes Mom was put in the hospital last night, and we will probably leave this AM. I think being able to do both buggying and sailing is gonna be cool! Maybe I need a giant kite that will pull the landsailer and I can just dump the mast and sail when I want to kite. Anyway all this wind riding is just too cool!

(Not-so-old) Ben - great reading about your positive experiences at JIBE with your Landsailor and early buggying. These wind machines are addictive, aren't they? :karate:

I hope your Mother-in-law is OK and has a speedy recovery.

So The landsailing saga goes on.

Firstly let me say I have been kite flying a good bit when I go to Sapelo. Met some nice kite surfers while flying, from Miami last week that were there for a wedding. Was nice to talk with them. I think I am going to be able to sneak my buggy over at some point.

Woodie has undergone a bunch of refinements. Have been sailing the back roads of McIntosh a bit. Road sailing has its own points of finesse. I have added a larger(66sq ft) lateen sail for low end power as Woodie will soon be a two seater. This was inspired by the vid(link at bottom) from Jax beach. These guys were having too much fun, especially the kid that kept dumping the sailer over, too funny!

Also converted the PL buggy. It was very easy to do and will quickly revert back to its original configuration. Cost was minimal on the conversion, though there was a bit spent on the windsurf components. Mainly the sail. Its a basic surf sail for training, cost $125 new. The sail Randy kindly gave me as near as I can figure requires a reduced diameter mast(RDM) to rig properly. I have a standard mast. Still working on making it work. Havent sailed the buggy yet hope to this week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tML8LipuGTE

Thanks for the kind comments yall.

Yeah I might have gone a bit overkill on the mounts Windstruck. They are 3/8 6061 T6 when probably 1/4 would have done.
Originally I had intended to run without the mast stays. The mount would have no issue doing that but Im pretty sure the goose neck would break short order through the bolt holes where the side rails mount. I have a plan to reinforce the neck and do away with the stays. They are not real old man friendly during ingress/egress, but not too bad either. You enter from the back by standing in the seat then lowering yourself in, reverse the process to get out. Its easy enough would just be nicer with out them. Once in they are completely out of the way. Once they are gone I could also lower the mast a bit.

Randy, I finally figured the issue with the sail you gave me, it was the nut that holds the rope. I had seen so many pics and vids of sails used with out the windsurf boom, and that was the way I was trying it. The wave sails have so much down haul and out haul to shape them. Cant do it with out the boom. Another straight up learning curve, but I have it figured now! Would probably be easier with and RDM mast but they wont work with the conversion. Has to be a standard size.

For general use the larger training sails and the SUP sails are much easier to deal with, just not high performance. Probably all I need. Hard to dodge all the beach goers with a race sail!

Also the conversion will work on Woodie with either the windsurf sails or I can use the composite mast with the 4.7 laser sail also. Its pretty modular.


Heres a pic of the puller I made to get the down haul right with my mast. Really makes it easy. Lock the rope in the clamcleat and haul away.

Hey Chook

Read the entire sail section including your thread on uncut sails down at Seabreeze. Great info!
Im a bit confused how you are getting proper out haul without the wishbone.

The sail Randy gave me will not set until its out hauled with the wishbone. I can put enough down haul
to wrinkle the entire leech(way too much) but the lower battens will never lay properly at the mast until they are out hauled
with the wishbone in its normal "board" position. Not a real fan of how the wishbone looks, but its nice to set the sails out and
down hauls on the ground then just drop it in the step and go. I realize there is no on the fly adjustment but Im just a sport sailer.

Also Im confused as too the great lengths you Aussie fellas go to to mod/reinforce the surf masts. I just used a common
US cup mast extension that just happens to fit 1 1/4" emt(is actually slightly over 1.5"od). I drove a 1 3/8 hardwood dowel the entire length of the emt which extends all the way to the top of the surf mast extension. The extension is then cross bolted to the emt/dowel. Seems plenty strong to me. Will it be an issue with the mast?

If our fellow kiters would rather not discuss land sailing we can take it to Seabreeze.

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

If our fellow kiters would rather not discuss land sailing we can take it to Seabreeze.

(No-So-Old) Ben - I for one am enjoying this conversation! I love seeing your designs develop. From where I'm sitting this fits right in PKF. I know a great number of buggy riders are also landsailors, so have at it!

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Quote: Originally posted by oldben   If our fellow kiters would rather not discuss land sailing we can take it to Seabreeze. (No-So-Old) Ben - I for one am enjoying this conversation! I love seeing your designs develop. From where I'm sitting this fits right in PKF. I know a great number of buggy riders are also landsailors, so have at it!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks yall.

I thought maybe this might be helpful if anyone was considering a conversion. The biggest learning curve is in the sail area if you are not familiar with them, there is not much to the buggy conversion.
There are so many sails and types to consider. From what I have learned the wave sails are the easiest to use of the hi-perf
sails due to the cut back bottom section. The easiest overall sails are the sup/trainer sails. They are much more user friendly and cheaper also, though not as fast a sailer.

The buggy will convert back in 5min or less, simply by removing the 3 bolts at the bottom of the mast step, loosening the
top 3 and removing the 2 bolts and clamps at the rear axle for the stays and lifting the whole conversion clear. Much faster with an impact tool.
I also made a basically friction free mast pivot using and old wheel bearing from Woodie( I upgraded to precision sealed).
It fits snugly into a piece of the emt for support. You drop it down the mast step followed by the washer to support the mast. Spins quite easily. This works because the sail is down hauled to the mast extension and not the buggy. Hope to try this out today if things dont get in the way and the weather holds.

Cool thing is all this fits into the back of my ancient Honda Passport tow vehicle with no dismantling of the buggy or stuff on top.

Took it out yesterday afternoon Blade.

Went to Jekyll about 4 to get in on the low tide happening around 7. Was pretty windy being from the NNE at the time
14-18 with gusts over 20. Was good to try it in higher winds to test the stability. Everything worked perfectly with exception
of the boom riding up the mast due to the fact the latching rope was nylon and stretched. This allowed the outhaul to slack
causing the sail to luff a bit up wind. Got the proper lines on the way. Getting in and out wasnt bad and the seat with the web straps supporting my back was surprisingly comfortable. I stayed in the bug almost 2hrs.

Having never ridden in a buggy I was surprised at how stable it was for being so close coupled. It made killer speed out of
the wind. I quickly learned the micro inputs necessary on steering. Toward the end was getting the hang of two wheeling, but wasnt very smooth in the gusts. It made steady progress up wind but not blindingly so. I would sail from Great Dunes north
to the motel which took a while, then burn it back in no time. Acceleration was brisk and had to be done in stages as to pull the sail in at once would put me on my head. Im guessing 25+ easily and I never did haul the sail all the way in to avoid max speed as there was apparently a national convention of the Dumb a$$/Oblivious club happening with folks walking out into the path of the unbraked sailer constantly. Still had a blast!

You can see from the pics up and down wind. It fits easily into the Passport and self carries everything needed including a cooler of beer to keep the wife entertained.

So in a effort to streamline/make things as easy as possible I fabbed a tow bar for the buggy from an old broom handle, a hinge, and hardware from my junk box.
I was just about tried of getting the buggy to the beach with the PL WOS leash, especially going down the ramp. My wife as intelligent as she is is eluded by physics. The idea of pulling slightly backwards on the buggy going down the ramp while I pulled and steered totally baffled her and just about generated a throw down after I got run over twice.

Smooth sailing now! Goes on and off in less than a minute with no tools, eyebolts make great thumb holds. Uses 3/4 emt single side clamps which fit the fork perfectly. A shot of silver spray paint the kill the R. Goldberg look and all will be good.

The bug goes at my pace now!

**Modding to cantilever**

Got the materials to plate the goose neck so the mast stays can be removed.
Only mod required to the buggy is to grind the small weld that retains the forward goose neck bolt
so the bolt can be removed. Next plates were fabbed from 1/4" and 1/8" 6061 T6.
The 1/8 plates run uninterrupted from the front of the mast mount to the side bars flange. These act as spacers
to even the 1/4 plates to the goose neck as the plates rear is mounted over the side bars flange. There were already a smaller set in the mast mount to properly space the step tube. The 1/4 plates then bolt
over the neck in a way similar to the mast mount. The weak area of the neck where the holes are is now boxed
with 3/8 per side of 6061 plate. It would be ideal if the plates on both the mast mount and the sides were welded but they are not.
No weld is the idea.
I dont think there is enough loading to work the neck between the plates. Time will tell. The 1/8 plates have to
break first. Ignore the junk hardware holding it in place.
Time for a run to the hardware store and to finish it up.

This will make the bug much more user friendly.

Sorry about the pics, cameras nearly as old as I am.

OK all finished.

Not the most aesthetically pleasing conversion but I feel its quite
substantial, and it not hard/expensive to do with no welding. Was able to reduce the height of the mast step 2" since the stay brackets were removed.
Now it will roll straight into the back of the Honda with out having to tilt it to one side to clear the opening.

With out going thru receipts, Im guessing less than $40 to convert the buggy. Sailing rig is of course where the money is spent, though not bad with used stuff. With careful scrounging the whole enchilada could be done under $200.

Buggy reverts back to stock in a very few minutes.

Sweet set up. What an evolution from Old Woody.

One thing I love about this group is that you are encouraged to ride the wind " your style ". Looks like you have found your style!

The finial installment and evolution of old Woodie.

Converted to a two seater, finished and painted. Changed out the barrow wheel/tires for 16/6.50x8s on the proper 5" wheels to handle two riders. Due to the offset, the wheels can be run either inward or outward. This allows an increase/decrease to the track of 7". 70" inward. 77" outward. Can be swapped around in about 2 min a side. They will probably stay in the inward position as I doubt old Woodie will fit down the ramp at Jekyll in the wide mode.

Cool thing about the wheels they would greatly increase the track on my buggy, since axles are hard to find. Have to work around the bearing issue, but think I have it figured.

SPECTACULAR. Well played (not-so-old) Ben, well played. Talk about a chick magnet.

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Maybe better buy a new Huffy too!

Is that a Huffy? That's a nice lookin' bike boy! :moon: