Power Kite Forum - Q: Kite patch, chicken loop replacement, line length

Q: Kite patch, chicken loop replacement, line length

jeffnyc - 14-10-2017 at 03:49 PM

Hi all - since I managed to get screwed by work AND bang up the car, I'm not making it down to WBB... really sucks, I wanted to meet you all. (and I'm out the hotel fee! Not a good week)

Since I won't be there, here's a couple questions I've been saving up...

Kite patch: I managed to already pop a 1 inch hole in my Charger. Top, not near leading edge or seams. Looking around, it seems that Tear-aid is the stuff to use (just in case, I also have some Ripstop sail repair nylon tape as well). So is Tear-Aid what I should use, round corners and placement top surface, or inside (I assume top surface). I also assume no sewing?

Chicken loop: I have the Peter Lynn Navigator bar with the old style chicken loop (pull towards you). How hard is it (or is it doable at all) to swap that puppy for a more modern push away, and if so, which one? Or should I be looking for a different bar altogether? What works best with an arc? Or should I just keep it the way it is? So far it's not a problem, but seems like it would be worth the piece of mind to have a kook (me) proof safety system.

Line length: My rear lines are too long. I assumed I could just go up a knot, but looking at it, the loop is on the vpc on the kite side. So how do I go about either shortening the rear lines or lengthening the front lines? Pig tails on the front? Is there a way to shorten the rear lines on the bar end?

Speaking of pig tails - looks like it'd be fun to splice my own - any recommendation on fids that don't cost an arm and a leg? The only set I found on Amazon are 90 bucks... Or do I even need them? Or do I need a D-spliceer, or just a guitar string? And is there a specific dyneema cord I need to look for? Where should I buy (US)?

I think that's all for now :smilegrin:

Thanks!

Kamikuza - 14-10-2017 at 10:41 PM

Yep, just TearAid and although there are two types, I remember it being easy to figure out which one was needed.

Can't quite remember the old Navigator bar. I think you can swap it out to any that uses the "double depower" and center safety, like the v3 and older Switch loops. Just make sure it has a below the bar swivel. . . . I'd just keep it the way it is, although I had a habit of not letting go quickly enough and the hat would get pulled off when I released to safety.

Should be able to tune them by adjusting knots under the floaters at the bar.

Don't need "real" fids unless you're working with sheathed line or bigger thicknesses IMO. I use embroidery or crochet hooks (I think) up to pigtail thickness. You can use anything, like guitar string that's thick enough to push through the core of the line.

Looks like this, was a couple of bucks from the sewing store. Note the lever that closes the hook and lets it slide back down the line: http://www.channypicture.com/pic/Uploadfile/6/SKU160977/DD33...

Amsteel is IIRC the trade name. About 3mm, maybe 2.8 is the exact size.

Kamikuza - 15-10-2017 at 03:59 PM

Oops

jeffnyc - 15-10-2017 at 04:21 PM

Thanks Kami! Will break out the Tear aid tonight if I have time...

A little more on the line lengths... It looks like I'm maybe 8 cm off, if all lines lengths are supposed to be equal. It's a little tough getting an exact measurement with the whole depower/adjuster line - I let it out all the way.
I'll try to post a shot from the TS manual. There are no knots or anything under the floaters (14) - the line there is approximately the same length as the floater, and then the self landing line is attached (11). It seems to me shortening the self landing leader lines (10) would be the way to adjust the rear lines - I'll have to brush up on my splicing skills. Or add pig tails to the front lines. How have people with this bar dealt with this? This doesn't seem normal to have such a big difference in lengths - what would account for that? It's no wonder the guy who had it before me gave up!

tomdiving - 15-10-2017 at 05:07 PM

any reason you couldn't add your own knot(s)?
see around 3:42 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agRluMB0EPY

jeffnyc - 15-10-2017 at 08:17 PM

I guess I'm just confused as to how you would do that with the self landing handle there. Everything goes loop to loop to ring on this thing. Do I just lose the self landers, make a couple knots 8cm down the line underneath the floaters (the part I'm holding in the photo), and larks head the pre-self lander line to the new knot? Or do I cut (or squish) the floaters - there doesn't seem to be 8cm of play in there. Or is there some way to shorten (10 in the image above) the leader line?
Maybe I'm over thinking this and I should just try it. Thanks for the vid link - I had seen it before and was looking for it earlier today. I remembered the dude talking about how knots weaken the lines so I didn't want to start adding knots - but I guess that's only for the thinner flying lines?

tomdiving - 16-10-2017 at 05:48 AM

i have zero personal experience with this particular issue. i was going through anything i might find to help me eventually get my apex in the air and actually do something with it.
being easily distracted, i watched that video and then came across your post and thought it may be of use.
however... if you larkshead above a knot, you shouldn't actually have a weak spot in the line. the knot would just be locating the attachment point, not be a load bearing point. tie multiple knots and hook in below any of them, and you certainly would have weak points in regards to the pull on the line.
then again, i could be wrong.
tom

clarifying my thought

tomdiving - 16-10-2017 at 05:58 AM

by above, in this case, i mean towards the handle.
think of a line pigtail with 3 knots.
if i hook to the bottom knot, the first 2 are weaker points than if it were just a straight, unknotted line.
if i hook onto the line above the top knot, there are no weak points, since the previous 2 weak points are now dangling in the wind with no load.
tom

Feyd - 16-10-2017 at 06:27 AM

On my Arcs I replaced the stock kook proof pigtails at the kite with knotted pigtails. Allows for dialing out stretch but also allows for tuning for different wind conditions. I've installed knotted pigtails on almost all of our school and demo kites as well. Not that we make a lot of changes to them but we do from time to time and it's just nice to have the option.

We have them in stock if you decide to go that route. Shipping to NY is a day I think.

http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/line-sets.html

jeffnyc - 16-10-2017 at 09:15 AM

Thanks Tom! I think on most bars what you are talking about would work (and what I had originally intended to do). The way this all looks, Chris confirmed that the adjustments should be done on the kite end. Just ordered pigtail set, will let you know how it goes :thumbup:

abkayak - 16-10-2017 at 09:43 AM

if you cut any lines you will be disinvited to my beach for life...
we will get what you want outa that kite...promise..but no cutting
ever

jeffnyc - 16-10-2017 at 12:04 PM

Cut lines? No way. I'm purely talking about pigtails, leaders and knots. Not going to do anything without showing to you guys, but want to have whatever I need ready, and it's nice to have a good idea of how/what to do. Glad Chris chimed in (thanks again!), I know he has a lot of experience modding the Nav bar and adjusting lines etc... And since I can't do anything but work right now, I have way too much time to think about this, and way too little time to actually fly...

Kamikuza - 17-10-2017 at 06:36 AM

Huh. How are you supposed to tune the bar then?

Knots on pigtails is the easiest way to do it. Some 2.8mm Amsteel, half it knot it. Do what Feyd says :D

jeffnyc - 22-10-2017 at 10:53 AM

OK, quick question on the lines... After a bunch of goofing around with the pigtails, I've gotten the steering (rear) lines and one of the front lines to all match up - trim is all the way out to the stopper ball. The other front line is the one with the bungie, and it's still loose. It looks pretty worn and floppy (at least the sleeving does, I obviously can't see inside to the bungie itself). Should I be adding pigtails to the solid front line to match the bungie line, and should the bungie be completely stretched, then adjust the front lines to the rear lines?

Kamikuza - 23-10-2017 at 05:55 AM

The "bungy" line is your safety line, and that should attach to a front line, shouldn't it?

Kamikuza - 23-10-2017 at 05:59 AM

The old high-Y bar had the safety up to a ring and ball, didn't it?

jeffnyc - 23-10-2017 at 07:55 AM

Yeah - mine isn't set up that way... that's the setup I keep seeing as well. This is a 4 line deal. The safety attaches to the ring through the chicken loop, goes through the center of the bar, about half way up a long bungie is spliced in, then attached to a stopper ball and a 2nd kite line goes the rest of the way to the bridle. I'll try to attach 3 photos - 1. where the bungie is spliced in, 2. the bungie to the stopper, 3. the ring. As you can see, the bungie section is a little on wizened side (I could look down and make a joke, but it's just too sad...)
So both front lines are split in 2, the safety attached to a bungie and the other attached to a ring. I assume the bungie side should be taut when I balance all the lines, right now I have the other 3 same length, bungie still a little saggy.

edit: now that I think about it... when I adjust the trim strap, I'm only adjusting one line (the non-bungie front line - the black one in the photo that attaches to the ring). Wouldn't that throw off the whole balance?

Kamikuza - 24-10-2017 at 03:44 AM

Yeah, that's what I call a high-Y bar, which is kind of redundant as it's either Y or V but whatever :D

So your pigtails go at the end of the lines, where you larS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s head them onto the kite's pigtails.

jeffnyc - 24-10-2017 at 08:27 AM

So yesterday I flew it with the pigtails, and it was exhibiting the same behavior. The bungee line was still a little loose, so that is still a factor I think. Brandon looked at the bungee and was like, yeah, that thing doesnt look great. And said Kami and Chris were the masters on these things, so listen to them

So my thinking right now, is to either redo, or buy a new/used bar and get that sorted so bar/lines are not a factor. I should probably look at the bridle measurements as well. If that doesnt work, start working on some of the charger mods tungsten posted.
Oh yeah, and the chicken loop is garbage. When I tested it under power, it jammed and took me over a minute to get it to go.

So the question now is - I should probably just get a different bar that wont try to kill me. I could replace all the lines and chicken loop on this one (which I would be happy to do, I love tinkering with this stuff if you havent noticed), but it would probably cost the same as getting a decent more modern, correctly set up one. There are tons of bars coming up for sale right now, old stock, new, used that seem affordable, Switch bar, a year or 2 old CPRs seem inexpensive etc, question is, which ones are right for the charger, and what do you guys like/use? Id hope whatever I get could be used with multiple kites as I add to the collection - or should I keep what I have and replace and reengineer the front lines, safety and chickenloop?

Feyd - 25-10-2017 at 04:08 AM

Jeff check ur PM

Kamikuza - 25-10-2017 at 04:49 AM

What behavior? What makes you think they are too long?

When you tune a bar, you secure the pig tails at the same point.
Then walk the lines out.
Trim all the way "out".
The bar and line set in good will result in the bar against the chicken loop and the same tension on all the lines...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRbb6Iqmg6g

The "bungy" line shouldn't be tight at all. When the kite tensions the lines, it pulls the front line against the ring at the Y-point. The safety line below that point SHOULD be slack by design. You can kinda see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_LXwEI3f1w

How did it jam? I never had a problem with them jamming, but as I said the red hat got pulled off when I didn't let go in time and, now I think about it, the pin used to whack me on the thumb.

I liked the Nav bar, apart from the side pull CL, and I wanted to experiment with low-V but never got around to it and sold all my arcs.

Any bar that releases to a front will work, but my OCD won't let me mix kite and bar brands :D so I'd just get a later model Navigator...

jeffnyc - 25-10-2017 at 06:41 AM

Quote:

The "bungy" line shouldn't be tight at all. When the kite tensions the lines, it pulls the front line against the ring at the Y-point. The safety line below that point SHOULD be slack by design. You can kinda see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_LXwEI3f1w

Ah - I'm such a num num... thanks Kami. So lines are even, bungee hangs a bit. I didn't realize it locks at the ring... stupid me. The area I was stretching the lines at was hard to see past the ring, so it never dawned on me... I can probably take the bar out of the equation for tuning and concentrate on the kite then. Last time out I tried auto zenith with different trim settings (on the bar, not the kite), and it seemed to wander and fall out the right hand side every time (what it's been doing since the beginning). Basically, I can't leave the kite alone.
The one thing it doesn't do so far is tip clap, so I have at least one win! :D
The jam I assume was from sand - the day before I went out while I was adjusting lines I tried it about 10 times with no problem, but of course the time I actually want to use it, it freezes... I'll start checking it if I ever fall again. :smilegrin:

I think next thing to try on a more mellow day is to attach the lines directly to the kite and see how it flies that way. We'll also try one of abkayaS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s bars and see if that makes a difference.

Kamikuza - 26-10-2017 at 02:09 AM

It doesn't lock in to place and stay there, but when the kite tensions the lines it stops at the ring. When the lines go slack, the weight of your leash will pull the line down.

Check the tune before ruling the bar out.

Always check the QR is clean before you hook in. When I launch, I blow the sand out and release the QR and reset before hooking in. We've big gritty sand on our beach, and that can jam things...

Chargers didn't have the strongest auto-zenith of the arcs. I seem to remember they were really bad at it in fact...
Another of my crap videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs8ODOHQDCQ&t=164s
You can see even the Synergy doesn't shoot to the zenith in light wind.

Have you played with the internal straps at all?

Reset everything to zero and start again.

jeffnyc - 26-10-2017 at 09:16 AM

All straps have been zero since I got it (first thing I did), but I'm going to triple check again later today. I'll also check the lines again today. I'll also try to see if the braids are in the correct places and see if I can get some measurements (ala tungsten at arcusers).

Last time out was fairly ratty wind, so hunting and falling out were probably amplified, but it exhibited the same behavior in light wind as well. It might well be that that's the way it is, but I'm sure I can tune at least a little of it out. As long as it's not tip clapping (so far not) I should be happy

Pretty sure the QR got jammed after my first fall (hit the soft sand on my landboard and went right down... I'm still sweeping sand out of my undies). I'll be more aware of it in the future... but I never plan on falling again, so that point is moot.

Your videos are great - I found them early on when I was randomly searching for kite vids :D

Kamikuza - 27-10-2017 at 05:13 AM

Sounds like a Charger. The design gave up strong auto-zenith for being more aggressive. IIRC...