Power Kite Forum - education, please

education, please

tomdiving - 9-2-2018 at 07:06 AM

with all of the doom and gloom associated with the likely outcome of flying small, lifty kites, can anyone please tell me why they exist?
what is their intended purpose?
why would one be chosen over another, similarly-sized non-lifty kite for any particular circumstance?
i am thinking about something in a 3m size for this. if it can pop you up, only to bang you down, what's the point?
i do have a 4m twister that i can static fly when a 4m flow won't get going well in low wind, but i know that's not what it's made for. if that doesn't go, i try a 5m toxic. if that doesn't go, i go fishing.
just wondering.
tom

Windstruck - 9-2-2018 at 08:55 AM

Tom, while I'm certainly no expert, I can make what I think are a couple of constructive comments about your question. While multiple variables certainly exist, the Aspect Ratio (AR) of a kite confers a number of attributes and influences the way it flies, ramps up it's pull as it swings through the wind window, and, all things being equal, confers better upwind performance. Upwind performance can be a must-have feature in racing where buggy riders (snowkiters, etc.) must follow a set course that by default includes upwind piloting.

Secondly, the ability for a small, high wind, high AR kite to lift you (and then possibly unceremoniously dropping you back to earth) is highly dependent on pilot skill. Keeping such a kite low to the ground avoids the possibility for the kite to lift you off the ground since the pull is sideways not upward. Easier said than done of course, but skilled pilots don't allow such kites to race high into the sky under load, especially backwards relative to their direction of travel. Shoot a high AR kite high into the sky with you rolling in the opposite direction and, bingo, OBE.

I'm not implying I'm that skilled pilot, far from it. I personally like low AR kites for their comparative safety and am willing to pay the performance price that comes with that. I hope this helps.

tomdiving - 9-2-2018 at 09:06 AM

windstruck, excellent information that makes total sense now.
not being much of a traction guy (yet) i never considered upwind travel, nor the means to do so properly.
thanks much for your reply.
tom

WELDNGOD - 12-2-2018 at 06:42 PM

https://vimeo.com/240399275 Small kites travel faster through the window. There are two ways to generate power. Either by sheer size ,or by covering more distance in the same amount of time . Check out my vids on vimeo and you will notice a common theme. HIGH WIND AND SMALL KITES. :ninja:

Feyd - 13-2-2018 at 04:22 AM

For freestyle and airs smaller kites in the right hands are a ton of fun but rely heavily on piloting to work the kite to get the lift required to land softly. That's one reason for smaller lifty kites. Some small lifty kites on the other hand exist because when they're old. Some kites are simply scaled down versions of bigger kites. Therefore having the same traits but less surface. The '04 -'06 Ozone Frenzy 5m is a prime example. Small, fast and lifty. Great for going fast. Fly it low in the window until it maxes out then sheet in to spool up the turbo. A lot of kiters breaking 50mph for the first time did so on the older 5m Frenzy.

But put that performance overhead, and things get ugly. The 5m had lift but unlike modern kites lacks the turn rate required to maintain lift in a jump unless it's nukin.:evil:

Other small kites like the 4m Ozone Access are the other end of the spectrum. Good grunt but minimal lift. Phenomenal high wind kites that allow you to have a fun and relatively safe session in winds that would otherwise cause you to stay home.

A good high wind kite is as valuable a day saver as a good light wind kite.

Then you have odd kites like the 4m Peak . Small, yes. Fast, yes. Lifty, sorta. Some people have used them for gliding. Gliding on a 4m seems nuts to me but a 4m peak is a bit different by virtue of how much kite surface is actually at work.

abkayak - 13-2-2018 at 06:52 AM

your in some mood...
seems to me you need any 3m lifty or not, imo everyone needs a few
get 1 of ea...like a old hornet and a blade
at some pt you see when you like which in what...than you buy another just because the price was right :thumbup:

B-Roc - 13-2-2018 at 07:21 AM

I still have my 4m Bego :D Sort of regret selling my 6m Bego

but that was done to fund the 14m Eskimo

Bego 400s fly like Revs, possess the speed and turbo boost aspect of race kites and the lift of blades. Those kites are a ton of fun in the right hands and conditions. Kind of sad to see all the great kites that have come and gone over the years.

tomdiving - 13-2-2018 at 05:25 PM

abkayak - the mood was supposed to come across as a light joke, while referencing the wind. i'll guess that it comes across as crass to some. my apologies to any offended.
i have lots of 2.5, 3, 3.5m kites but they are relatively tame. i'm ok with that at the moment. i think that if the wind would work well with something like a 3m twister (if that even exists) i would just go with a 3.5 rage instead and hopefully stay on the ground. i'd hope that the upwind capability would be similar, if i were on skis or other locomotion sources.
if not, i'd just do the best that i could with whatever i have, and still have a blast.
tom

b-roc - never heard of that kite, but will certainly look into it. thanks!

Bladerunner - 13-2-2018 at 09:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Tom, while I'm certainly no expert, I can make what I think are a couple of constructive comments about your question. While multiple variables certainly exist, the Aspect Ratio (AR) of a kite confers a number of attributes and influences the way it flies, ramps up it's pull as it swings through the wind window, and, all things being equal, confers better upwind performance. Upwind performance can be a must-have feature in racing where buggy riders (snowkiters, etc.) must follow7 a set course that by default includes upwind piloting.

Secondly, the ability for a small, high wind, high AR kite to lift you (and then possibly unceremoniously dropping you back to earth) is highlydependent on pilot skill. Keeping such a kite low to the ground avoids the possibility for the kite to lift you off the ground since the pull is sideways not upward. Easier said than done of course, but skilled pilots don't allow such kites to race high into the sky under load, especially backwards relative to their direction of travel. Shoot a high AR kite high into the sky with you rolling in the opposite direction and, bingo, OBE.

I'm not implying I'm that skilled pilot, far from it. I personally like low AR kites for their comparative safety and am willing to pay the performance price that comes with that. I hope this helps.

This is a real good explanation.

Something else I have noticed is that skilled riders typically use shorter lines with these kites. The smaller power zone is safer and makes it easier to get the kite flying low.

Small high AOA kites are race kites but Skilled riders who do jump with small kites are amazing to see. They must work the kite aggressively the whole time.

I like a lifty kite but the amount decreases with size. By the time I am down to my 2.5m FB I want a kite with near zero lift. I flew a 2m Ace that magnified how fast and far the kite would run in the window. Falling back in a lull then rocketing deep into the window with a gust. Scariest little kite I ever flew.

I am real impressed with what I have seen of the 3.5 Long Star II kite. It sort of tames the lift while the high aspect helps it's upwind. It will definately be the one I get when my Profoil self destructs.

I have sort of thought the 4m Twister was an odd kite. Twister was made for jumping type lift. The 4.9m Blade was a widow maker. An even smaller jumping kite is sort of a warped idea for a warped customer. The qualities do give it a better low end?

Feyd - 14-2-2018 at 04:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by B-Roc

I still have my 4m Bego :D Sort of regret selling my 6m Bego

but that was done to fund the 14m Eskimo

It's funny how we lament the loss of old kites. Speaking for myself it's usually because I remember the raw power of most of them.

But in doing so I selectively forget how they also used to beat the heck out of me and other less than great traits.

As I get older and the wear and tear over the years becomes more evident I am pretty grateful that kites have evolved as they have. :D

bego 400

tomdiving - 14-2-2018 at 06:32 AM

from the little that i could find, the bego 400 seems similar to a 4m blade. is that correct?
tom